Trump's America

[Csfan1984]

Come on guys Vote for Trump, let's see if the Simpsons were also right about Trump bankrupting the country. Come on and enjoy 4 more years of lies, division, and hate. Let's make 2020 an awesome year by having a worse 2021!

[Erik]

Next, since this thread is targeted towards me and is entitled Trump's America, this shouldn't be flagged as off topic as it is in response to this forum's general criticism towards Trump in 2020.

This will be the third time that I'm posting this. Let's see if we go 3/3 with no response:

Trying to blame Trump for these protests/riots or for covid deaths is about as disingenuous as you could get and reflects why the majority of the American electorate is undereducated and just parrots stuff that they hear on TV. Regardless of what Trump says or what you think, these are both state and local government issues at the core.

Protests/Riots: I've seen this a bunch but we all know that these protests and riots have little to do with Trump unless the point of the riots is that Trump is a bad person? Arguments boil down to two main talking points:

1) "If Trump is so strong on law and order, why are there riots?" This is a dirty argument because it either lacks a fundamental knowledge of how government works OR blatant dishonesty. If a riot takes place in a city, it is up to the local and state governments to address it. They can request federal aid if the situation is out of control, but federal agents cannot police at those levels unless the building or object being protected is a federal owned entity. If Trump is "sending in the Brownshirts" believe me that they were asked for by scared democratic mayors/governors who have been pushed into a really bad corner (do we protect the city and lock up our voters or do we let them run free?). When Trump says that he is strong on law and order, what that translates to is: "I will help as much as I can and veto any ridiculous bill that comes in."

2) "Trump is the reason there is racial unrest." This is a difficult argument to make or break because it's subjective. There are several posts/comments that he has made that could be viewed as inflammatory, but from what I understand, the main point of these protests is due to "systemic racism," specifically with regards to policing policy and were happening pre-Trump. These are, again, local and state issues. The blame for any systemic racism on a per incident lies solely in the hands of the local or state government agency. This is a hard pill to swallow because the vast majority of these shooting incidents are in Democrat run areas, often also including black mayors, police chiefs, city councils, etc. It's an interesting argument to make that black and/or democrat legislatures are perpetuating systemic racism towards blacks.


Covid: As most of you know, this viral strain is named Covid-19 (originating in roughly November 2019 -- although I've seen some reports of confirmed  cases retrospectively as early as March 2019). This means that people were bring in the virus as early as or before November 2019, months before we even knew anything about it (infer what you will about China here). When you see charts or infographics showing us being at 0 cases on X date in 2020 and then it jumped due to "Trump's mishandling of the situation," you are purposely being lied to. In reality, if we were testing in December of 2019, we'd have a lot of cases already, considering the amount of air traffic coming from China to US. In reality, the number of COVID deaths compared to the ideal strategy if you look in hindsight, it's true that if Trump had acted perfectly, less people would have died, but it's such a disingenuous argument to make. The makeup of the US government makes it almost impossible for every city and state to shut down at the exact time because the federal government cannot mandate this stuff. All Trump could do is cut off foreign travel, help out where he can with aid, and urge people to take all safety precautions possible (here is probably where he failed the most). But to blame him entirely for COVID deaths is about as disgusting of an argument as one could make. State and local governments set all of the policy once the virus has already entered.

[Csfan1984]

Erik, if you want a response I feel you have to actually direct the posed questions to the person who made those statements. If you pick generic arguments with specific angles on a problem that no one has taken what reply do you actually expect?

People have/made mentioned the topics but not in the context that you box in those arguments.

If you want open discussion base it on "why do you think Trump is responsible for x?" that would get you more replies.

[Neurotic Guy]

Next, since this thread is targeted towards me and is entitled Trump's America, this shouldn't be flagged as off topic as it is in response to this forum's general criticism towards Trump in 2020.

This will be the third time that I'm posting this. Let's see if we go 3/3 with no response:

Trying to blame Trump for these protests/riots or for covid deaths is about as disingenuous as you could get and reflects why the majority of the American electorate is undereducated and just parrots stuff that they hear on TV. Regardless of what Trump says or what you think, these are both state and local government issues at the core.

Protests/Riots: I've seen this a bunch but we all know that these protests and riots have little to do with Trump unless the point of the riots is that Trump is a bad person? Arguments boil down to two main talking points:

1) "If Trump is so strong on law and order, why are there riots?" This is a dirty argument because it either lacks a fundamental knowledge of how government works OR blatant dishonesty. If a riot takes place in a city, it is up to the local and state governments to address it. They can request federal aid if the situation is out of control, but federal agents cannot police at those levels unless the building or object being protected is a federal owned entity. If Trump is "sending in the Brownshirts" believe me that they were asked for by scared democratic mayors/governors who have been pushed into a really bad corner (do we protect the city and lock up our voters or do we let them run free?). When Trump says that he is strong on law and order, what that translates to is: "I will help as much as I can and veto any ridiculous bill that comes in."

2) "Trump is the reason there is racial unrest." This is a difficult argument to make or break because it's subjective. There are several posts/comments that he has made that could be viewed as inflammatory, but from what I understand, the main point of these protests is due to "systemic racism," specifically with regards to policing policy and were happening pre-Trump. These are, again, local and state issues. The blame for any systemic racism on a per incident lies solely in the hands of the local or state government agency. This is a hard pill to swallow because the vast majority of these shooting incidents are in Democrat run areas, often also including black mayors, police chiefs, city councils, etc. It's an interesting argument to make that black and/or democrat legislatures are perpetuating systemic racism towards blacks.


Covid: As most of you know, this viral strain is named Covid-19 (originating in roughly November 2019 -- although I've seen some reports of confirmed  cases retrospectively as early as March 2019). This means that people were bring in the virus as early as or before November 2019, months before we even knew anything about it (infer what you will about China here). When you see charts or infographics showing us being at 0 cases on X date in 2020 and then it jumped due to "Trump's mishandling of the situation," you are purposely being lied to. In reality, if we were testing in December of 2019, we'd have a lot of cases already, considering the amount of air traffic coming from China to US. In reality, the number of COVID deaths compared to the ideal strategy if you look in hindsight, it's true that if Trump had acted perfectly, less people would have died, but it's such a disingenuous argument to make. The makeup of the US government makes it almost impossible for every city and state to shut down at the exact time because the federal government cannot mandate this stuff. All Trump could do is cut off foreign travel, help out where he can with aid, and urge people to take all safety precautions possible (here is probably where he failed the most). But to blame him entirely for COVID deaths is about as disgusting of an argument as one could make. State and local governments set all of the policy once the virus has already entered.

I don’t blame Trump for all Covid deaths.

I don’t blame him for systemic racism.

I don’t blame him for the protests or riots.


I do blame him for absent leadership, daily lies, thoughtless/impulsive behavior, over-active hubris, lack of compassion and empathy, soaring debt, ignoring science, threatening our democracy, further dividing our country, destroying the Republican Party, acting like a child, sustaining the separation of families, claiming to have but not sharing a plan for healthcare, lying early and often about the danger of Covid, not enthusiastically endorsing the use of masks, putting his supporters (and thus, others) at risk for Covid by condoning unsafe behavior at rallies, championing opening up businesses and schools without adequately emphasizing/addressing safety, calling the press the enemy of the people, not resolving Dreamers, not acknowledging climate change, defending the good people on both sides in Charlottesville, and generally for being a thoroughly rotten human being.

These are some of the reasons that I won’t vote for him. You can think these reasons are disingenuous, naive, and uninformed if you want to.  Hopefully most people in America won’t see it that way.

[Erik]

There we go. I knew I could count on you to agree on Trump not being responsible for 200k deaths, the riots and racial unrest. Anyone else?

Going to do some quick hits on these because it’s late:

absent leadership, opinion
daily lies, exaggeration but agreed he recites a lot of fake news
thoughtless/impulsive behavior, opinion
over-active hubris, Opinion
lack of compassion and empathy, Opinion
soaring debt, Agreed, but do you think the left is better?
ignoring science, regarding COVID? Pretty sure he acted based on science.
threatening our democracy, Vague but disagree
further dividing our country, Was already completely divided
destroying the Republican Party, Opinion
acting like a child, ok
sustaining the separation of families, requires further discussion.
claiming to have but not sharing a plan for healthcare, he does have one. It’s to Generally repeal Obamacare, keep Preexisting conditions, lower costs through competition.
lying early and often about the danger of Covid, ok
not enthusiastically endorsing the use of masks, yep
putting his supporters (and thus, others) at risk for Covid by condoning unsafe behavior at rallies, sure
championing opening up businesses and schools without adequately emphasizing/addressing safety, Not his decision
calling the press the enemy of the people, this press is
not resolving Dreamers, Did he get a bill to sign?
not acknowledging climate change, He just did during the debate
defending the good people on both sides in Charlottesville, Requires further discussion
and generally for being a thoroughly rotten human being, opinion but sure

Ok, now after all of that (I agree he’s a jerk), would you trade all of the above for the threat of socialism ? To me, the threat of additional socialism is like raising the stakes from “yeah he’s not the best choice” to “say goodbye to the country as we know it.” That is the line in the sand. Until the Democratic Party completely rejects the socialist fringe, I cannot justify voting for them regardless of who the republicans roll out.

[keevsnick]

Next, since this thread is targeted towards me and is entitled Trump's America, this shouldn't be flagged as off topic as it is in response to this forum's general criticism towards Trump in 2020.

This will be the third time that I'm posting this. Let's see if we go 3/3 with no response:

Trying to blame Trump for these protests/riots or for covid deaths is about as disingenuous as you could get and reflects why the majority of the American electorate is undereducated and just parrots stuff that they hear on TV. Regardless of what Trump says or what you think, these are both state and local government issues at the core.

Protests/Riots: I've seen this a bunch but we all know that these protests and riots have little to do with Trump unless the point of the riots is that Trump is a bad person? Arguments boil down to two main talking points:

1) "If Trump is so strong on law and order, why are there riots?" This is a dirty argument because it either lacks a fundamental knowledge of how government works OR blatant dishonesty. If a riot takes place in a city, it is up to the local and state governments to address it. They can request federal aid if the situation is out of control, but federal agents cannot police at those levels unless the building or object being protected is a federal owned entity. If Trump is "sending in the Brownshirts" believe me that they were asked for by scared democratic mayors/governors who have been pushed into a really bad corner (do we protect the city and lock up our voters or do we let them run free?). When Trump says that he is strong on law and order, what that translates to is: "I will help as much as I can and veto any ridiculous bill that comes in."

2) "Trump is the reason there is racial unrest." This is a difficult argument to make or break because it's subjective. There are several posts/comments that he has made that could be viewed as inflammatory, but from what I understand, the main point of these protests is due to "systemic racism," specifically with regards to policing policy and were happening pre-Trump. These are, again, local and state issues. The blame for any systemic racism on a per incident lies solely in the hands of the local or state government agency. This is a hard pill to swallow because the vast majority of these shooting incidents are in Democrat run areas, often also including black mayors, police chiefs, city councils, etc. It's an interesting argument to make that black and/or democrat legislatures are perpetuating systemic racism towards blacks.


Covid: As most of you know, this viral strain is named Covid-19 (originating in roughly November 2019 -- although I've seen some reports of confirmed  cases retrospectively as early as March 2019). This means that people were bring in the virus as early as or before November 2019, months before we even knew anything about it (infer what you will about China here). When you see charts or infographics showing us being at 0 cases on X date in 2020 and then it jumped due to "Trump's mishandling of the situation," you are purposely being lied to. In reality, if we were testing in December of 2019, we'd have a lot of cases already, considering the amount of air traffic coming from China to US. In reality, the number of COVID deaths compared to the ideal strategy if you look in hindsight, it's true that if Trump had acted perfectly, less people would have died, but it's such a disingenuous argument to make. The makeup of the US government makes it almost impossible for every city and state to shut down at the exact time because the federal government cannot mandate this stuff. All Trump could do is cut off foreign travel, help out where he can with aid, and urge people to take all safety precautions possible (here is probably where he failed the most). But to blame him entirely for COVID deaths is about as disgusting of an argument as one could make. State and local governments set all of the policy once the virus has already entered.

Nobody blames him ENTIRELY for covid, but I dont really think its an arguable point that he's been about as bad as you could possibly be in dealing with the issue. Its undoubtedly cost American lies.

I mean he's failed in multiple ways:
-Failure to encourage mask wearing
-Hosting large events in the middle of a pandemic
-Pushing ineffective treatments
-Encouraged states to stay open/open earlier than they should
-Complained about too much testing (just the worst)
-Downplay the seriousness of the disease
-Failure to help properly distribute PPE early on.
-Currently stalling out on releasing aid to cities/states to deal with budget shortfalls, cutting enhanced unemployment, trying to repeal ACA during a pandemic.

The federal government has done little, that doesn't mean there is little they COULD have done.

I really dont feel like being gaslighted on this.

[Csfan1984]

There we go. I knew I could count on you to agree on Trump not being responsible for 200k deaths, the riots and racial unrest. Anyone else?

Going to do some quick hits on these because it’s late:

absent leadership, opinion
daily lies, exaggeration but agreed he recites a lot of fake news
thoughtless/impulsive behavior, opinion
over-active hubris, Opinion
lack of compassion and empathy, Opinion
soaring debt, Agreed, but do you think the left is better?
ignoring science, regarding COVID? Pretty sure he acted based on science.
threatening our democracy, Vague but disagree
further dividing our country, Was already completely divided
destroying the Republican Party, Opinion
acting like a child, ok
sustaining the separation of families, requires further discussion.
claiming to have but not sharing a plan for healthcare, he does have one. It’s to Generally repeal Obamacare, keep Preexisting conditions, lower costs through competition.
lying early and often about the danger of Covid, ok
not enthusiastically endorsing the use of masks, yep
putting his supporters (and thus, others) at risk for Covid by condoning unsafe behavior at rallies, sure
championing opening up businesses and schools without adequately emphasizing/addressing safety, Not his decision
calling the press the enemy of the people, this press is
not resolving Dreamers, Did he get a bill to sign?
not acknowledging climate change, He just did during the debate
defending the good people on both sides in Charlottesville, Requires further discussion
and generally for being a thoroughly rotten human being, opinion

Ok, now after all of that (I agree he’s a jerk), would you trade all of the above for the threat of socialism ? To me, the threat of additional socialism is like raising the stakes from “yeah he’s not the best choice” to “say goodbye to the country as we know it.”

Socialism is a scare tactic. Truth is the rich and powerful control the Congress and Senate no matter the party in majority. Capitalism always wins. Even China is wearing down (even though it came at the cost of us being #1 economy). China is no longer a military threat they tasted the $ and rather do war in business then real war for beliefs. Biggest thing creating socialism is the top 1% controls too much wealth. It's economics.

[Erik]

Nobody blames him entirely for COVID ? 

Failure to encourage mask wearing, yeah I never understood this one. I think he was just annoyed at how people were politicizing it. Definitely agree he should have.
-Hosting large events in the middle of a pandemic, threat is very low based on the science of transmission and they are going willingly.
-Pushing ineffective treatments, You don’t know that.
-Encouraged states to stay open/open earlier than they should, not his decision
-Complained about too much testing (just the worst), the point was actually that our rates were highest because we test the most. Other countries are misleading on their numbers.
-Downplay the seriousness of the disease, Probably. Again, He shut the country down pretty [dang] early. Does he get any credit for that ?
-Failure to help properly distribute PPE early on, this is a flat out lie.
-Currently stalling out on releasing aid to cities/states to deal with budget shortfalls, Untrue
cutting enhanced unemployment, It ran out... Congress isn’t passing anything new.
trying to repeal ACA during a pandemic.  In all fairness he ran on this and got elected.

[Erik]

There we go. I knew I could count on you to agree on Trump not being responsible for 200k deaths, the riots and racial unrest. Anyone else?

Going to do some quick hits on these because it’s late:

absent leadership, opinion
daily lies, exaggeration but agreed he recites a lot of fake news
thoughtless/impulsive behavior, opinion
over-active hubris, Opinion
lack of compassion and empathy, Opinion
soaring debt, Agreed, but do you think the left is better?
ignoring science, regarding COVID? Pretty sure he acted based on science.
threatening our democracy, Vague but disagree
further dividing our country, Was already completely divided
destroying the Republican Party, Opinion
acting like a child, ok
sustaining the separation of families, requires further discussion.
claiming to have but not sharing a plan for healthcare, he does have one. It’s to Generally repeal Obamacare, keep Preexisting conditions, lower costs through competition.
lying early and often about the danger of Covid, ok
not enthusiastically endorsing the use of masks, yep
putting his supporters (and thus, others) at risk for Covid by condoning unsafe behavior at rallies, sure
championing opening up businesses and schools without adequately emphasizing/addressing safety, Not his decision
calling the press the enemy of the people, this press is
not resolving Dreamers, Did he get a bill to sign?
not acknowledging climate change, He just did during the debate
defending the good people on both sides in Charlottesville, Requires further discussion
and generally for being a thoroughly rotten human being, opinion

Ok, now after all of that (I agree he’s a jerk), would you trade all of the above for the threat of socialism ? To me, the threat of additional socialism is like raising the stakes from “yeah he’s not the best choice” to “say goodbye to the country as we know it.”

Socialism is a scare tactic. Truth is the rich and powerful control the Congress and Senate no matter the party in majority. Capitalism always wins. Even China is wearing down (even though it came at the cost of us being #1 economy). China is no longer a military threat they tasted the $ and rather due war in business then real war for beliefs. Biggest thing creating socialism is the top 1% controls too much wealth. It's economics.

How is socialism a scare tactic when it already exists in America?
Social security, Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, education. I think you’re confused about Socialism vs Capitalism in Economics but I’m not sure how I can respond because I don’t fully understand your position. Can you clarify what you mean by the top 1% are creating socialism ?

[Csfan1984]

There we go. I knew I could count on you to agree on Trump not being responsible for 200k deaths, the riots and racial unrest. Anyone else?

Going to do some quick hits on these because it’s late:

absent leadership, opinion
daily lies, exaggeration but agreed he recites a lot of fake news
thoughtless/impulsive behavior, opinion
over-active hubris, Opinion
lack of compassion and empathy, Opinion
soaring debt, Agreed, but do you think the left is better?
ignoring science, regarding COVID? Pretty sure he acted based on science.
threatening our democracy, Vague but disagree
further dividing our country, Was already completely divided
destroying the Republican Party, Opinion
acting like a child, ok
sustaining the separation of families, requires further discussion.
claiming to have but not sharing a plan for healthcare, he does have one. It’s to Generally repeal Obamacare, keep Preexisting conditions, lower costs through competition.
lying early and often about the danger of Covid, ok
not enthusiastically endorsing the use of masks, yep
putting his supporters (and thus, others) at risk for Covid by condoning unsafe behavior at rallies, sure
championing opening up businesses and schools without adequately emphasizing/addressing safety, Not his decision
calling the press the enemy of the people, this press is
not resolving Dreamers, Did he get a bill to sign?
not acknowledging climate change, He just did during the debate
defending the good people on both sides in Charlottesville, Requires further discussion
and generally for being a thoroughly rotten human being, opinion

Ok, now after all of that (I agree he’s a jerk), would you trade all of the above for the threat of socialism ? To me, the threat of additional socialism is like raising the stakes from “yeah he’s not the best choice” to “say goodbye to the country as we know it.”

Socialism is a scare tactic. Truth is the rich and powerful control the Congress and Senate no matter the party in majority. Capitalism always wins. Even China is wearing down (even though it came at the cost of us being #1 economy). China is no longer a military threat they tasted the $ and rather due war in business then real war for beliefs. Biggest thing creating socialism is the top 1% controls too much wealth. It's economics.

How is socialism a scare tactic when it already exists in America?
Social security, Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, education. I think you’re confused about Socialism vs Capitalism in Economics but I’m not sure how I can respond because I don’t fully understand your position. Can you clarify what you mean by the top 1% are creating socialism ?

Socialism always builds from a position of shared responsibilities. People who usually take that position come from a position that requires help or demands empathy for those who could use help. There is one way to deal with it "80/20" or social programs. A society will purge/revolt/socialism if a large mass lacks insufficient liberties or funds. By controlling too much wealth others feel less liberty/freedoms and demand shared responsibility. Spread the wealth out and people are more less to ask for shared anything. Money is tied to everything we do. Look at the rise of every communist nation and this holds true. It's a economic issue.

[wiley]

There we go. I knew I could count on you to agree on Trump not being responsible for 200k deaths, the riots and racial unrest. Anyone else?

Going to do some quick hits on these because it’s late:

absent leadership, opinion
daily lies, exaggeration but agreed he recites a lot of fake news
thoughtless/impulsive behavior, opinion
over-active hubris, Opinion
lack of compassion and empathy, Opinion
soaring debt, Agreed, but do you think the left is better?
ignoring science, regarding COVID? Pretty sure he acted based on science.
threatening our democracy, Vague but disagree
further dividing our country, Was already completely divided
destroying the Republican Party, Opinion
acting like a child, ok
sustaining the separation of families, requires further discussion.
claiming to have but not sharing a plan for healthcare, he does have one. It’s to Generally repeal Obamacare, keep Preexisting conditions, lower costs through competition.
lying early and often about the danger of Covid, ok
not enthusiastically endorsing the use of masks, yep
putting his supporters (and thus, others) at risk for Covid by condoning unsafe behavior at rallies, sure
championing opening up businesses and schools without adequately emphasizing/addressing safety, Not his decision
calling the press the enemy of the people, this press is
not resolving Dreamers, Did he get a bill to sign?
not acknowledging climate change, He just did during the debate
defending the good people on both sides in Charlottesville, Requires further discussion
and generally for being a thoroughly rotten human being, opinion

Ok, now after all of that (I agree he’s a jerk), would you trade all of the above for the threat of socialism ? To me, the threat of additional socialism is like raising the stakes from “yeah he’s not the best choice” to “say goodbye to the country as we know it.”

Socialism is a scare tactic. Truth is the rich and powerful control the Congress and Senate no matter the party in majority. Capitalism always wins. Even China is wearing down (even though it came at the cost of us being #1 economy). China is no longer a military threat they tasted the $ and rather due war in business then real war for beliefs. Biggest thing creating socialism is the top 1% controls too much wealth. It's economics.

How is socialism a scare tactic when it already exists in America?
Social security, Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, education. I think you’re confused about Socialism vs Capitalism in Economics but I’m not sure how I can respond because I don’t fully understand your position. Can you clarify what you mean by the top 1% are creating socialism ?

Socialism always builds from a position of shared responsibilities. People who usually take that position come from a position that requires help or demands empathy for those who could use help. There is one way to deal with it "80/20" or social programs. A society will purge/revolt/socialism if a large mass lacks insufficient liberties or funds. By controlling too much wealth others feel less liberty/freedoms and demand shared responsibility. Spread the wealth out and people are more less to ask for shared anything. Money is tied to everything we do. Look at the rise of every communist nation and this holds true. It's a economic issue.

Yup.  A stronger middle class and less explosively wealthy 1 percent would make socialism less appealing, less worthy of the fears of people like Erik, and pretty much a non entity in a capitalist society like ours.

[Erik]

Socialism always builds from a position of shared responsibilities. People who usually take that position come from a position that requires help or demands empathy for those who could use help. There is one way to deal with it "80/20" or social programs. A society will purge/revolt/socialism if a large mass lacks insufficient liberties or funds. By controlling too much wealth others feel less liberty/freedoms and demand shared responsibility. Spread the wealth out and people are more less to ask for shared anything. Money is tied to everything we do. Look at the rise of every communist nation and this holds true. It's a economic issue.

Oh, I see. I actually generally agree with you of the cause for people to turn to socialism. The promise of a better life by taking money from one person and giving it to you.

It’s still our job as rational thinkers who know that socialism doesn’t work and cannot work due to the way it operates in reality and 100 years of evidence to, whether or not we’re rich or poor, completely reject it.

There is legitimately nothing worse than sending your country down the rabbit hole of gradual decline, especially if you’ve studied it.

[Erik]

Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that he’s been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if he’s president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.

[GetLucky]

Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that he’s been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if he’s president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.

Most of this is already in the hands of the federal government (billions of $ in public research grants given to private companies and universities, federal student loans that are the only non-forgivable loans in our nation, etc.)

[Csfan1984]

Socialism always builds from a position of shared responsibilities. People who usually take that position come from a position that requires help or demands empathy for those who could use help. There is one way to deal with it "80/20" or social programs. A society will purge/revolt/socialism if a large mass lacks insufficient liberties or funds. By controlling too much wealth others feel less liberty/freedoms and demand shared responsibility. Spread the wealth out and people are more less to ask for shared anything. Money is tied to everything we do. Look at the rise of every communist nation and this holds true. It's a economic issue.

Oh, I see. I actually generally agree with you of the cause for people to turn to socialism. The promise of a better life by taking money from one person and giving it to you.

It’s still our job as rational thinkers who know that socialism doesn’t work and cannot work due to the way it operates in reality and 100 years of evidence to, whether or not we’re rich or poor, completely reject it.

There is legitimately nothing worse than sending your country down the rabbit hole of gradual decline, especially if you’ve studied it.

Problem is when people feel they the need to be socialist or take its view on a issue that says there is something wrong in the system. If we need to band together for something how do we get rid of that something so we can each do our own thing?