Author Topic: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?  (Read 2267 times)

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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2020, 10:09:24 AM »

Offline Monkhouse

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I mean, it's his second year in the league and he is 22 years old. He has had injuries and has also been a late lottery pick trying to crack the rotation of a top 4 team in the East the last two years.

So, no, absolutely not. His time clock hasn't even started yet.

The Celtics have three first round picks this year.  They have 11 players with guaranteed contracts/player options for next year.  Two other players with non-guaranteed deals/team options are ahead of him in the rotation (Theis and Semi).  Three players are restricted free agents, and it would be surprising if none of the three (Wanamaker, Waters, and Tacko) were retained.  Javonte Green is also non-guaranteed, but less likely to be retained.

At least one player, and likely more than one, isn't going to be kept next year despite being on a guaranteed contract, and Williams is going to be in that discussion of not making it.  He still has a chance to turn it around, as I said above, but his time for the Celtics is indeed running out.  If we don't see something in the bubble, I expect he will either be traded in the offseason or enter training camp having to win a roster spot.

I would be very surprised if Williams is the odd man out. His offensive game is almost close to non-existent, but he showed a decent mid range game + passing instincts. I don't get the impatience at this forum. People compare him to Capela, but Capela's game is literally lobs and dunks.

Like you said, we have plethora of first round picks, but none of them are anywhere close enough for us to be able to draft a young stud big. Of our options, the only viable one I can see is Xavier Tillman, who's game closely resembles the modern big.

I'd like to think we could give Baynes a nice contact in the off-season, but seems to really love it up there at Phoenix.

So who knows?

Also time stops for no one.....

Except for Timelord.

EDIT:

Who do you think is the least likely to be retained, and the most likely, saltlover? We are 99.99% bringing back Theis, no doubt about it, he's definitely on a bargain contract.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 10:30:26 AM by Monkhouse »
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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2020, 11:09:54 AM »

Offline footey

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Robert Williams' skill set:

1. Great at finishing dunks, and this will be more valuable as he learns the pick and role better.
2. He has great court vision, and makes quick decisions as a passer.
3. He is an elite shot blocker.

Are these qualities sufficient to becoming a starter at the 5 spot? Probably not.  He seems to have taken a step back, rather than forward, during the scrimmages. He is not reading defenses very well, kind of looked confused last night on that end. Of course, playing the Rockets is very confusing for a center, because the Rockets have no center, and they play their 5 outside the 3 point line. So it is frustrating for him not to be able to provide much help defense.

His rebounding seems to have taken a step down.

He seems out of shape to me, frankly.  Maybe not used to any significant minutes is what is holding him back.

We are not going to go very far these playoffs if he is unable to make a serious, San Antonio game level, contribution. 

Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2020, 11:27:02 AM »

Offline wiley

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I mean, it's his second year in the league and he is 22 years old. He has had injuries and has also been a late lottery pick trying to crack the rotation of a top 4 team in the East the last two years.

So, no, absolutely not. His time clock hasn't even started yet.

The Celtics have three first round picks this year.  They have 11 players with guaranteed contracts/player options for next year.  Two other players with non-guaranteed deals/team options are ahead of him in the rotation (Theis and Semi).  Three players are restricted free agents, and it would be surprising if none of the three (Wanamaker, Waters, and Tacko) were retained.  Javonte Green is also non-guaranteed, but less likely to be retained.

At least one player, and likely more than one, isn't going to be kept next year despite being on a guaranteed contract, and Williams is going to be in that discussion of not making it.  He still has a chance to turn it around, as I said above, but his time for the Celtics is indeed running out.  If we don't see something in the bubble, I expect he will either be traded in the offseason or enter training camp having to win a roster spot.

I would be very surprised if Williams is the odd man out. His offensive game is almost close to non-existent, but he showed a decent mid range game + passing instincts. I don't get the impatience at this forum. People compare him to Capela, but Capela's game is literally lobs and dunks.

Like you said, we have plethora of first round picks, but none of them are anywhere close enough for us to be able to draft a young stud big. Of our options, the only viable one I can see is Xavier Tillman, who's game closely resembles the modern big.

I'd like to think we could give Baynes a nice contact in the off-season, but seems to really love it up there at Phoenix.

So who knows?

Also time stops for no one.....

Except for Timelord.

EDIT:

Who do you think is the least likely to be retained, and the most likely, saltlover? We are 99.99% bringing back Theis, no doubt about it, he's definitely on a bargain contract.

I would be very surprised if they gave up on him before his rookie deal is done.  Bigs take a long time sometimes.  Carsen will be gone before Williams imo, if there is a crunch.  (I think Carsen will make it one day, just not sure when and where.)

Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2020, 11:31:50 AM »

Offline saltlover

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I mean, it's his second year in the league and he is 22 years old. He has had injuries and has also been a late lottery pick trying to crack the rotation of a top 4 team in the East the last two years.

So, no, absolutely not. His time clock hasn't even started yet.

The Celtics have three first round picks this year.  They have 11 players with guaranteed contracts/player options for next year.  Two other players with non-guaranteed deals/team options are ahead of him in the rotation (Theis and Semi).  Three players are restricted free agents, and it would be surprising if none of the three (Wanamaker, Waters, and Tacko) were retained.  Javonte Green is also non-guaranteed, but less likely to be retained.

At least one player, and likely more than one, isn't going to be kept next year despite being on a guaranteed contract, and Williams is going to be in that discussion of not making it.  He still has a chance to turn it around, as I said above, but his time for the Celtics is indeed running out.  If we don't see something in the bubble, I expect he will either be traded in the offseason or enter training camp having to win a roster spot.

I would be very surprised if Williams is the odd man out. His offensive game is almost close to non-existent, but he showed a decent mid range game + passing instincts. I don't get the impatience at this forum. People compare him to Capela, but Capela's game is literally lobs and dunks.

Like you said, we have plethora of first round picks, but none of them are anywhere close enough for us to be able to draft a young stud big. Of our options, the only viable one I can see is Xavier Tillman, who's game closely resembles the modern big.

I'd like to think we could give Baynes a nice contact in the off-season, but seems to really love it up there at Phoenix.

So who knows?

Also time stops for no one.....

Except for Timelord.

EDIT:

Who do you think is the least likely to be retained, and the most likely, saltlover? We are 99.99% bringing back Theis, no doubt about it, he's definitely on a bargain contract.

Of the guaranteed guys, the least likely is Poirier, then Robert.  Robert is more movable because he does still have two years left on the rookie deal and could be a cheap gamble for a team that has the time to develop him -- but more movable means less likely to be kept when there's a roster crunch.  Theis is definitely the most likely to stay -- the only reason he's less than 99.9% is that he'd be easy to move in a deal, either as salary filler that adds trade value or to gain an asset.

Edwards is probably near the cut/trade line too, but he has multiple guaranteed years left, so I think that he gets at least one more season to prove himself.

Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2020, 11:51:33 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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I mean, it's his second year in the league and he is 22 years old. He has had injuries and has also been a late lottery pick trying to crack the rotation of a top 4 team in the East the last two years.

So, no, absolutely not. His time clock hasn't even started yet.

The Celtics have three first round picks this year.  They have 11 players with guaranteed contracts/player options for next year.  Two other players with non-guaranteed deals/team options are ahead of him in the rotation (Theis and Semi).  Three players are restricted free agents, and it would be surprising if none of the three (Wanamaker, Waters, and Tacko) were retained.  Javonte Green is also non-guaranteed, but less likely to be retained.

At least one player, and likely more than one, isn't going to be kept next year despite being on a guaranteed contract, and Williams is going to be in that discussion of not making it.  He still has a chance to turn it around, as I said above, but his time for the Celtics is indeed running out.  If we don't see something in the bubble, I expect he will either be traded in the offseason or enter training camp having to win a roster spot.

I would be very surprised if Williams is the odd man out. His offensive game is almost close to non-existent, but he showed a decent mid range game + passing instincts. I don't get the impatience at this forum. People compare him to Capela, but Capela's game is literally lobs and dunks.

Like you said, we have plethora of first round picks, but none of them are anywhere close enough for us to be able to draft a young stud big. Of our options, the only viable one I can see is Xavier Tillman, who's game closely resembles the modern big.

I'd like to think we could give Baynes a nice contact in the off-season, but seems to really love it up there at Phoenix.

So who knows?

Also time stops for no one.....

Except for Timelord.

EDIT:

Who do you think is the least likely to be retained, and the most likely, saltlover? We are 99.99% bringing back Theis, no doubt about it, he's definitely on a bargain contract.

Of the guaranteed guys, the least likely is Poirier, then Robert.  Robert is more movable because he does still have two years left on the rookie deal and could be a cheap gamble for a team that has the time to develop him -- but more movable means less likely to be kept when there's a roster crunch.  Theis is definitely the most likely to stay -- the only reason he's less than 99.9% is that he'd be easy to move in a deal, either as salary filler that adds trade value or to gain an asset.

Edwards is probably near the cut/trade line too, but he has multiple guaranteed years left, so I think that he gets at least one more season to prove himself.

I think all that said there's fundamentally no chance Time Lord isnt on the team next year in my opinion. I get the reasoning, but there are other ways too fix the roster crunch that dont involve dumping a piece as interesting as Robert.  He's flashed some very interesting skills which I think is enough that his spot is safe, especially since both Theis and Kanter have 1 year left on their deals. His 4th year option is only 3.6 million, in a year when you have no other centers currently under contract.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 12:09:45 PM by keevsnick »

Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2020, 12:20:19 PM »

Offline Atzar

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I wouldn't say time is running out for him.  That's a bit more dire than his situation warrants, IMO.  Time ran out on guys like James Young and Yabusele, who never earned rotation minutes.  But Robert Williams has demonstrated more ability to contribute than they ever did, and was already a solid 15-minute guy before his injury this season. 

I think his biggest thing is that he needs to stay on the court.  The best ability is availability, as the saying goes.  And every week that he spends nursing an injury is a week that he doesn't get on-court experience and chemistry with his teammates. 

Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2020, 12:23:16 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Nope.

He'll have opportunities to produce and impact the game over the next couple of months.

He's shown some flashes.

He won't disappoint.
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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2020, 12:25:13 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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I'd argue that there's no chance that Timelord won't be on this team next year, barring some big trade. We've given guys who have shown less than Timelord far more time than that.
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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2020, 12:25:34 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Upside

Robert has been hustling up and down the court. His heart is in the game and his eyes are on it.

Defensively his movements are more accurate. He shows a better sense on the defensive end which isn't saying that much because up until recently he has been lost.

He was always good blocking shots and he's such an athlete the speed of his reactions help make up for his inexperience some times.

Offensively, Robert Williams isn't needed to score beyond some dunks. He needs to pass and learn the PR allowing the all stars on the court with him to get the job done. He is a very confident and accurate passer.

He has improved since arriving here and will continue to do so if he can get minutes which he won't.

He is far more confident and shows signs he is developing an NBA game.

He is constantly injured and never gets minutes....yikes.

Ainge won't trade him in a package...he doesn't make enough money ($1.9M?). You can't trade four guys as "filler" in deals...the other team doesn't have roster space.

Another poster mentioned the truth...rookie Grant Williams walked right by brother Robert and is getting real minutes.




Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2020, 01:12:04 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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R Williams' time may not be running out but he is reaching a critical impasse for his career with the Celtics. Next season is his last guaranteed year. If he has another season where he isn't in the big man rotation then I suspect the Cs let him walk. This draft and what the Cs do with their 3 picks will also weigh in on how they value Williams moving forward.     
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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2020, 02:35:08 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Two other players with non-guaranteed deals/team options are ahead of him in the rotation (Theis and Semi). 

Not to quibble, but I think Time Lord and Semi are about even in the rotation.  If anything, I think Time Lord is slightly ahead.

Tough to judge because Time Lord has missed so much time with injuries.  Their minutes are about the same (14.6 for Semi, 14.0 for Williams), but in the games they've played together (all 23 of them), Time Lord got more minutes in 12 of them (so practically even, but slight edge to Williams).   

The thing is Williams minutes seem more consistent, 65% of his minutes are in the 10-19 range, compared to 33% for Semi.  Williams benefits from a shallow pool of big men, while Semi has benefited from missed time from Hayward, Jaylen, and Tatum.

If everyone's healthy, I expect to see Williams getting a more consistent 10-20 minutes a night.  Semi on the other hand, if everyone's healthy, he might play 2 or he might play 15. Because of that, I'd say Williams is ahead of Semi in the rotation.   Also think Semi is more likely to be gone next year than Williams (easier to find a Semi replacement than Williams).

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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2020, 05:15:02 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I just don't get this love affair people have for Timelord.   He's an athletic big man which is great but when I see him play he's often out of position on defense (sometimes just not paying attention or he's looking for a block), doesn't block out on rebounds so he's not controlling the defensive boards (to be fair, few players on our team block out effectively), doesn't get many offensive rebounds (Kanter is easily our most effective player at positioning himself for an O board) and his offense is pretty limited to rimrunning. 
Actually, this is a misconception some folks have about the Celtics.  This Celtics team has been the 3rd best team in the NBA at boxing-out.   

Box-outs per 48 min:
Miami - 9.6
Toronto - 9.1
Boston - 8.8
LAC - 8.8
NYK - 8.7
MIL - 8.6

Boston was also 3rd in 2018-19.   So Boston, as a team, actually DOES box-out pretty aggressively.

On Robert Williams in particular, it is fair to say that within this team he has been sort of middle-of the-pack at boxing out, at 3.7 box-outs per 36.  The guys who really box-out aggressively are Enes (7.5), Tacko (7.5), Vincent (6.9) & Theis (6.2).   So relative to the other bigs, yeah, Robert isn't boxing out as aggressively.   Even Grant, who ranks just above Robert on the team at it, is comfortably ahead at 5.9 box-outs per 36.

Now, all that said, most of the difference is on defense.   And if what Smart has said holds water then it is possible that the RW3 is at center and the perimeter guys around him are playing more aggressive on the edge, that RW3 then has more back-stop shot-contention responsibility.  If you've ever played center in a 1-4 zone you know that boxing out is lower on your priority list than when you are sharing the paint with another big.

But ... then I look at Tacko's numbers.  Because when Tacko is on the floor - that is definitely what happens and he's still doing a lot of boxing out.

So while I am not as down on Robert as you seem, I do think that this particular criticism may have some merit.

I do still think he has absurd potential, though.   His hops are unreal and he at times seems to have a great natural feel for the floor.  His passing on offense is very good and his ability to cover space not only has him contesting a lot of shots per minute, but also have a significant impact on the efficiency of those shots.   I'm not ready to give up on him just yet.

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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2020, 06:44:51 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Robert Williams controls time, so whenever he is ready will be the correct time.

I think he was always a project and he had some injury setbacks along the way. I think next season we will see him routinely get some meaningful minutes.
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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2020, 07:07:54 PM »

Offline footey

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I just don't get this love affair people have for Timelord.   He's an athletic big man which is great but when I see him play he's often out of position on defense (sometimes just not paying attention or he's looking for a block), doesn't block out on rebounds so he's not controlling the defensive boards (to be fair, few players on our team block out effectively), doesn't get many offensive rebounds (Kanter is easily our most effective player at positioning himself for an O board) and his offense is pretty limited to rimrunning. 
Actually, this is a misconception some folks have about the Celtics.  This Celtics team has been the 3rd best team in the NBA at boxing-out.   

Box-outs per 48 min:
Miami - 9.6
Toronto - 9.1
Boston - 8.8
LAC - 8.8
NYK - 8.7
MIL - 8.6

Boston was also 3rd in 2018-19.   So Boston, as a team, actually DOES box-out pretty aggressively.

On Robert Williams in particular, it is fair to say that within this team he has been sort of middle-of the-pack at boxing out, at 3.7 box-outs per 36.  The guys who really box-out aggressively are Enes (7.5), Tacko (7.5), Vincent (6.9) & Theis (6.2).   So relative to the other bigs, yeah, Robert isn't boxing out as aggressively.   Even Grant, who ranks just above Robert on the team at it, is comfortably ahead at 5.9 box-outs per 36.

Now, all that said, most of the difference is on defense.   And if what Smart has said holds water then it is possible that the RW3 is at center and the perimeter guys around him are playing more aggressive on the edge, that RW3 then has more back-stop shot-contention responsibility.  If you've ever played center in a 1-4 zone you know that boxing out is lower on your priority list than when you are sharing the paint with another big.

But ... then I look at Tacko's numbers.  Because when Tacko is on the floor - that is definitely what happens and he's still doing a lot of boxing out.

So while I am not as down on Robert as you seem, I do think that this particular criticism may have some merit.

I do still think he has absurd potential, though.   His hops are unreal and he at times seems to have a great natural feel for the floor.  His passing on offense is very good and his ability to cover space not only has him contesting a lot of shots per minute, but also have a significant impact on the efficiency of those shots.   I'm not ready to give up on him just yet.

All numbers courtesy of stats.nba.com.

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Re: Is Time Running Out for the Timelord?
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2020, 07:21:56 PM »

Offline byennie

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The jury may be out, but imagine this guy playing in say, Atlanta. He'd probably be putting up something like 7/8/2 in 20 minutes? With highlight reel dunks, nifty passes, and a few SportsCenter appearances?

It all depends on expectations I guess, but as a modern 4/5 who's somewhere in the elite role-player to above average starter zone? Seems still very obtainable.