Author Topic: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots  (Read 2391 times)

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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2020, 01:55:40 PM »

Online Roy H.

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What we ALSO should realize is that with the PANDEMIC going on - aren't just about ALL courthouses shut down / closed?

Not exactly.  Most state courts are staying at least partially open to deal with emergency matters:  protection orders, bail hearings, etc.  Some places can do those remotely, others can’t.
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2020, 02:22:03 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Oh Andy Ngo, you fascist loving muppet. That guy is the worst.

Because he said something you disagree with?

No, because his credibility is shot. If you know anything about Andy Ngo, you know he's pretty famous for twisting the truth especially in these kinds of contexts. He's built his whole career on it and has been exposed as a liar multiple times. Kind of the Jacob Wohl of conflict journalism.

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Don't tell me you actually are praising the attack on that tweet.

No, on face value, absolutely not. But I'd be careful to accept anything significant Andy Ngo offers at face value. I would be very surprised if what is happening in that tweet is the whole story, or even representative of the whole story.

It seems like a fairly straight forward video, as does the one of attempting to set the courthouse on fire.

What happened in the moments before the video clip started?   There are a wide range of possible scenarios leading up to that moment and some might put the actions of the various actors in a different light.

I think the video speaks for itself.  Just more of the same from Antifa.
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In a court filing Tuesday, federal officials in Portland said they had been pelted with bottles and feces, shot at with slingshots and fireworks and blinded by laser pointers, with 28 federal officers suffering injuries ranging from hearing damage and broken bones to a dislocated shoulder.

Federal officials said they detained and released two people over the weekend and arrested five more Monday night on charges of assaulting a federal officer, creating a disturbance, trespassing or failing to comply with an officer's order.

In other words, you and I have no idea what happened in the moments preceding the video.

Out of that particular story (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/07/22/portland-protests-grow-larger-after-trump-sends-feds/5483028002/) you only quote the tiny snippet that describes things from the official, "federal officials" viewpoint.   The larger body of the article expresses in detail how (a) the protests have only grown larger in response to the federal actors inserting themselves and (b) so many local actors want the feds to stop interfering and leave.
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2020, 03:58:17 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Interesting read on the use of "excited delirium" to (mis)justify police actions:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/chokehold-police-excited-delirium/2020/07/17/fe907ec8-c6bc-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html

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Across the United States, police officers are routinely taught that excited delirium is a condition characterized by the abrupt onset of aggression and distress, typically accompanying drug abuse, often resulting in sudden death. One 2014 article from the FBI’s Law Enforcement Bulletin describes “excited delirium syndrome” as “a serious and potentially deadly medical condition involving psychotic behavior, elevated temperature, and an extreme fight-or-flight response by the nervous system.”

How often is excited delirium invoked? It’s unclear, but in Florida at least 53 deaths in police custody were attributed to it over the past 10 years. One study showed that 11 percent of sudden unexplained deaths in police custody in Maryland from 1990 to 2004 were attributed to excited delirium. The American College of Emergency Physicians published a controversial position paper in 2009 stating its consensus that excited delirium is a valid disease, associated with a significant risk of sudden death.

But excited delirium is pseudoscience. It’s not a concept recognized by the American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association. It isn’t a valid diagnosis; it’s a misappropriation of medical terminology, and it doesn’t justify police violence.
...
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Despite these shaky origins and the lack of grounding in medical science, this concept — of a febrile, agitated state often culminating in death — has persisted, advanced by law enforcement. The features of this purported condition, as listed by the American College of Emergency Physicians, betray its entanglement with law enforcement, including “bizarre behavior generating phone calls to police,” “failure to respond to police presence” and “continued struggle despite restraint.” Several analyses have found that the majority of deaths attributed to “excited delirium” are associated with the use of physical restraint. Some emergency-medicine doctors who are proponents of the diagnosis have been criticized for having conflicts of interest with the stun gun industry. And the manufacturer of Tasers has helped popularize this diagnosis to help attribute Taser-associated deaths to other possible causes.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2020, 04:29:02 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Interesting read on the use of "excited delirium" to (mis)justify police actions:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/chokehold-police-excited-delirium/2020/07/17/fe907ec8-c6bc-11ea-b037-f9711f89ee46_story.html

Quote
Across the United States, police officers are routinely taught that excited delirium is a condition characterized by the abrupt onset of aggression and distress, typically accompanying drug abuse, often resulting in sudden death. One 2014 article from the FBI’s Law Enforcement Bulletin describes “excited delirium syndrome” as “a serious and potentially deadly medical condition involving psychotic behavior, elevated temperature, and an extreme fight-or-flight response by the nervous system.”

How often is excited delirium invoked? It’s unclear, but in Florida at least 53 deaths in police custody were attributed to it over the past 10 years. One study showed that 11 percent of sudden unexplained deaths in police custody in Maryland from 1990 to 2004 were attributed to excited delirium. The American College of Emergency Physicians published a controversial position paper in 2009 stating its consensus that excited delirium is a valid disease, associated with a significant risk of sudden death.

But excited delirium is pseudoscience. It’s not a concept recognized by the American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association. It isn’t a valid diagnosis; it’s a misappropriation of medical terminology, and it doesn’t justify police violence.
...
Quote
Despite these shaky origins and the lack of grounding in medical science, this concept — of a febrile, agitated state often culminating in death — has persisted, advanced by law enforcement. The features of this purported condition, as listed by the American College of Emergency Physicians, betray its entanglement with law enforcement, including “bizarre behavior generating phone calls to police,” “failure to respond to police presence” and “continued struggle despite restraint.” Several analyses have found that the majority of deaths attributed to “excited delirium” are associated with the use of physical restraint. Some emergency-medicine doctors who are proponents of the diagnosis have been criticized for having conflicts of interest with the stun gun industry. And the manufacturer of Tasers has helped popularize this diagnosis to help attribute Taser-associated deaths to other possible causes.

There’s probably blondes in the police brutality thread, not here.

I have no idea what “excited delirium” would entail.  However, I see a ton of clients within 48 hours of their arrest.  The ones who were most excited, aggressive and delusional were either psychotic / schizophrenic, or on bath salts (the affects of which could last days).  And, we did have one person die in custody in such a state (because while high he tore his testicles off while in custody and bled to death.)
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2020, 06:07:56 PM »

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Why does Trump want to send federal law enforcers to Albuquerque?
Can’t figure out what is going on there...

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2020, 06:49:20 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Why does Trump want to send federal law enforcers to Albuquerque?
Can’t figure out what is going on there...

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The program was created as a result of Trump's promise to assist America's cities that are plagued by recent violence.

The president mentioned the killing of Jacque Vigil. She was killed while warming up her car in Albuquerque. Vigil's family attended the announcement, and thanked the president for his efforts in fighting crime. Barr said the federal government will offer a reward to help find out who killed Vigil.

The president said the DOJ will also provide $61 million in grants to hire more police officers in cities that are part of Operation Legend.

Barr said this operation will not look like it does in Portland, where federal agents have faced off with protesters. He said this will be classic crime-fighting. Frank Fisher, with the FBI in Albuquerque, the operation is not directed at protesters or immigrants.

Apparently Ms. Vigil was the mother of two state police officers.
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2020, 09:44:34 PM »

Online mobilija

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Why does Trump want to send federal law enforcers to Albuquerque?
Can’t figure out what is going on there...

Quote
The program was created as a result of Trump's promise to assist America's cities that are plagued by recent violence.

The president mentioned the killing of Jacque Vigil. She was killed while warming up her car in Albuquerque. Vigil's family attended the announcement, and thanked the president for his efforts in fighting crime. Barr said the federal government will offer a reward to help find out who killed Vigil.

The president said the DOJ will also provide $61 million in grants to hire more police officers in cities that are part of Operation Legend.

Barr said this operation will not look like it does in Portland, where federal agents have faced off with protesters. He said this will be classic crime-fighting. Frank Fisher, with the FBI in Albuquerque, the operation is not directed at protesters or immigrants.

Apparently Ms. Vigil was the mother of two state police officers.

Thanks. Read a little more about this. The two officers were killed in November....But the crime is unsolved.

Didn’t realize Albuquerque was so violent, but evidently it’s a top10 violent crime rate city. Not often mentioned  in federal authorities being sent to cities, also proposed being sent to Detroit, Cleveland, And already sent to Kansas City. Sounds like this is taking a different form than what is happening in Portland. Selling it as a collaboration with local authorities as well as Grant monies going to fund....something. We will see what this ultimately looks like.

Anyone with news about The reaction/doings in Kansas City?

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2020, 04:40:51 PM »

Offline liam

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Trump is so good at making things worse.

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2020, 05:09:41 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I think this is basically becoming a "Let's see whose "phallus" is bigger" standoff.

The Feds are there, locals don't want them there and NO ONE wants to stand down.

Protests stop? Pres. Trump will puff his chest out and claim victory....trying to score political points and election points.

Feds leave? We'll have to trust that "whatever" is keeping the Feds there WILL stop....will have to trust that if some protesters are doing bad things then perhaps they'll stop and go home.

Are protesters doing bad things? According to the mayor and other sources - things were dying down then got riled up when the Feds showed.

Just sounds like a Hornet's Nest was stirred with all this.

Are the Feds "REALLY" needed there RIGHT NOW? Could the LOCAL police handle whatever the Feds supposedly are there for?

It is VERY hard to trust Pres. Trump and his reasoning. He blames Democrats for the country's decay but supposedly MANY Dems (and some independents?) voted him in.

In a circular thinking kind of way I guess YOU CAN, LOL - say that some Democrats "ARE" responsible for the protests in PORT right now.............................................................
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2020, 05:55:44 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I think this is basically becoming a "Let's see whose "phallus" is bigger" standoff.

The Feds are there, locals don't want them there and NO ONE wants to stand down.

Protests stop? Pres. Trump will puff his chest out and claim victory....trying to score political points and election points.

Feds leave? We'll have to trust that "whatever" is keeping the Feds there WILL stop....will have to trust that if some protesters are doing bad things then perhaps they'll stop and go home.

Are protesters doing bad things? According to the mayor and other sources - things were dying down then got riled up when the Feds showed.

Just sounds like a Hornet's Nest was stirred with all this.

Are the Feds "REALLY" needed there RIGHT NOW? Could the LOCAL police handle whatever the Feds supposedly are there for?

It is VERY hard to trust Pres. Trump and his reasoning. He blames Democrats for the country's decay but supposedly MANY Dems (and some independents?) voted him in.

In a circular thinking kind of way I guess YOU CAN, LOL - say that some Democrats "ARE" responsible for the protests in PORT right now.............................................................

I think they are. If the Portland police demonstrated that they could defend the federal courthouse, then I’m sure if this wouldn’t have been an issue.  Trump may have found a different city to intervene in, but it wouldn’t be Portland.

But, the liberal mayor of a very liberal city Acted in his role as police commissioner, and told his officers to stand down rather than engage protesters. The same type of behavior is exactly what led to the murder of a child in Atlanta, and the death of multiple people in Seattle.

We *can* blame some Democrats for some of these problems, and not the ones who voted Trump.  Can you acknowledge that? I certainly can blame Trump for his many faults, although I do not personally blame him for sending in federal law enforcement to protect federal property.
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2020, 06:16:42 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I think this is basically becoming a "Let's see whose "phallus" is bigger" standoff.

The Feds are there, locals don't want them there and NO ONE wants to stand down.

Protests stop? Pres. Trump will puff his chest out and claim victory....trying to score political points and election points.

Feds leave? We'll have to trust that "whatever" is keeping the Feds there WILL stop....will have to trust that if some protesters are doing bad things then perhaps they'll stop and go home.

Are protesters doing bad things? According to the mayor and other sources - things were dying down then got riled up when the Feds showed.

Just sounds like a Hornet's Nest was stirred with all this.

Are the Feds "REALLY" needed there RIGHT NOW? Could the LOCAL police handle whatever the Feds supposedly are there for?

It is VERY hard to trust Pres. Trump and his reasoning. He blames Democrats for the country's decay but supposedly MANY Dems (and some independents?) voted him in.

In a circular thinking kind of way I guess YOU CAN, LOL - say that some Democrats "ARE" responsible for the protests in PORT right now.............................................................

I think they are. If the Portland police demonstrated that they could defend the federal courthouse, then I’m sure if this wouldn’t have been an issue.  Trump may have found a different city to intervene in, but it wouldn’t be Portland.

But, the liberal mayor of a very liberal city Acted in his role as police commissioner, and told his officers to stand down rather than engage protesters. The same type of behavior is exactly what led to the murder of a child in Atlanta, and the death of multiple people in Seattle.

We *can* blame some Democrats for some of these problems, and not the ones who voted Trump.  Can you acknowledge that? I certainly can blame Trump for his many faults, although I do not personally blame him for sending in federal law enforcement to protect federal property.

Roy -

Democrats are NOT blameless for some things. I give you that.

But my trust in Pres. Trump is shot....to the point where if he says Feds are needed in POR then I cannot believe him.

Now if MITT ROMNEY was on the ground in POR and said the Feds were needed? I'd believe it HANDS DOWN. Just want to make that clear.

To be honest if Pres. Trump told me the sky was Blue (and I looked outside and it was) - I'd still find a reason to not believe it.

I am serious.

Is that healthy thinking? Probably not, lol. But it's my point of view from my observations over the last few years.
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2020, 01:17:04 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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This has nothing to do with DHS’s duty to protect federal property. This is 100% a fight Trump picked for pr reasons

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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2020, 01:19:17 PM »

Online Roy H.

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This has nothing to do with DHS’s duty to protect federal property. This is 100% a fight Trump picked for pr reasons

Eh.  Trump didn’t send federal LEOs until they started trying to burn the federal courthouse down.  All of the teargas has been related to federal property, the arrests have been related to alleged crimes against federal property. Trumps July 3 speech that in many ways set forth this initiative was related to federal property.

And, authorizing federal forces to protect federal property was exactly what President Obama did regarding Cliven Bundy. Except there, officers were allowed to use lethal force, and somebody died. And, rightfully so.

Federal authorities have nationwide jurisdiction, subject to a list of crimes that they are allowed to investigate, and if there is sufficient proof, detain and arrest for.  Destruction of federal property is exactly such a crime.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 01:27:31 PM by Roy H. »
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2020, 01:42:11 PM »

Offline liam

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This has nothing to do with DHS’s duty to protect federal property. This is 100% a fight Trump picked for pr reasons

Eh.  Trump didn’t send federal LEOs until they started trying to burn the federal courthouse down.  All of the teargas has been related to federal property, the arrests have been related to alleged crimes against federal property. Trumps July 3 speech that in many ways set forth this initiative was related to federal property.

And, authorizing federal forces to protect federal property was exactly what President Obama did regarding Cliven Bundy. Except there, officers were allowed to use lethal force, and somebody died. And, rightfully so.

Federal authorities have nationwide jurisdiction, subject to a list of crimes that they are allowed to investigate, and if there is sufficient proof, detain and arrest for.  Destruction of federal property is exactly such a crime.

Yeah, it's the same as when federal troops were called in to put down John Brown at
Harpers Ferry!  ::)

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2020, 02:07:18 PM »

Online Roy H.

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This has nothing to do with DHS’s duty to protect federal property. This is 100% a fight Trump picked for pr reasons

Eh.  Trump didn’t send federal LEOs until they started trying to burn the federal courthouse down.  All of the teargas has been related to federal property, the arrests have been related to alleged crimes against federal property. Trumps July 3 speech that in many ways set forth this initiative was related to federal property.

And, authorizing federal forces to protect federal property was exactly what President Obama did regarding Cliven Bundy. Except there, officers were allowed to use lethal force, and somebody died. And, rightfully so.

Federal authorities have nationwide jurisdiction, subject to a list of crimes that they are allowed to investigate, and if there is sufficient proof, detain and arrest for.  Destruction of federal property is exactly such a crime.

Yeah, it's the same as when federal troops were called in to put down John Brown at
Harpers Ferry!  ::)

Comparing John Brown to a bunch of Antifa terrorists, rioters and arsonists destroying federal property mostly because they like to break stuff?  That comparison strikes me as out of touch, and frankly, racist.

That said, yes:  Brown attacked federal property and was subject to federal jurisdiction.
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