Author Topic: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots  (Read 2430 times)

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Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« on: July 20, 2020, 07:10:28 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Sending federal troops using gestapo tactics into Chicago will result in armed conflict unlike anything we’ve seen in 50+ years.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2020, 07:11:42 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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It is odd that the Congress has ceded its powers to the executive and now the power of the purse which is congressional check on the executive is now been used by the executive in threats to not fund schools if they refuse to follow the wishes of the executive.

is there not a law that the executive must release monies apporpriated by Congress without attaching addional conditions? Didnt the country just go through this with congessional apporpriated aid for Ukraine?

Yeah, the congress said that there's nothing wrong with Trump holding up money for a quid pro quo so now he can do whatever he wants. Trump has a free pass on doing whatever he wants and now he's putting federal troops on Americain streets in unmarked vans.

Hence the question.... have we forgotten what this country was founded on or for?

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2020, 07:13:34 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Sending federal troops using gestapo tactics into Chicago will result in armed conflict unlike anything we’ve seen in 50+ years.

perhaps that is the plan, and as usual the Dems do not seem to appreciate the gravity of the problem.

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2020, 07:42:55 PM »

Offline liam

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It is odd that the Congress has ceded its powers to the executive and now the power of the purse which is congressional check on the executive is now been used by the executive in threats to not fund schools if they refuse to follow the wishes of the executive.

is there not a law that the executive must release monies apporpriated by Congress without attaching addional conditions? Didnt the country just go through this with congessional apporpriated aid for Ukraine?

Yeah, the congress said that there's nothing wrong with Trump holding up money for a quid pro quo so now he can do whatever he wants. Trump has a free pass on doing whatever he wants and now he's putting federal troops on Americain streets in unmarked vans.

Hence the question.... have we forgotten what this country was founded on or for?

Yes.

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2020, 07:43:40 PM »

Offline liam

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Sending federal troops using gestapo tactics into Chicago will result in armed conflict unlike anything we’ve seen in 50+ years.

perhaps that is the plan, and as usual the Dems do not seem to appreciate the gravity of the problem.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2020, 07:51:42 PM »

Offline liam

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Quote
Lynne Rambo, professor emerita at the Texas A&M University School of Law:

“He would have to be able to say either that some federal law was being broken or obstructed,” Rambo said. “In contrast with the desegregation situations, he doesn’t have any obvious federal law to claim is being broken. To solve this problem, I would look for him to invoke protecting federal property in the states in question.”

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2020, 08:04:36 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Sending federal troops using gestapo tactics into Chicago will result in armed conflict unlike anything we’ve seen in 50+ years.

Gestapo tactics?

Quote
The authors record how the transcribers of these conversations were told to brace themselves for 'terrible things.'  They said; 'The extermination of the Jews was known in the world of the soldier far more than recent investigations of the topic have suggested.'

Because of access to these recordings, no-one can now claim their's was false testimony given under duress; these are the words of soldiers at ease, unaware of the silent recording gizmos capturing their every [dang]ing word.

Some tapes picked up the same theme time and time again; for example, that it was a recurring problem for the S.S. killing squads in Russia to shoot children.  The listeners wondered if this was a moral dilemma - if, in fact, long subsumed humanity was breaking through.

Then one day they listened into a conversation that revealed why killing children was such a problem; it was because they wouldn't keep still.

The recordings also picked up on another theme - 'execution tourism.'

It turned out that many German soldiers serving in Russia or Poland sought out either friends or contacts in the S.S. murder squads and made appointments to go along to witness what was done.



With the rampant anti-Semitism being shared prominently these days, maybe it’s time to remember who the Gestapo really were.



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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2020, 08:26:25 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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It is odd that the Congress has ceded its powers to the executive and now the power of the purse which is congressional check on the executive is now been used by the executive in threats to not fund schools if they refuse to follow the wishes of the executive.

is there not a law that the executive must release monies apporpriated by Congress without attaching addional conditions? Didnt the country just go through this with congessional apporpriated aid for Ukraine?

Yeah, the congress said that there's nothing wrong with Trump holding up money for a quid pro quo so now he can do whatever he wants. Trump has a free pass on doing whatever he wants and now he's putting federal troops on Americain streets in unmarked vans.

Hence the question.... have we forgotten what this country was founded on or for?

Yes.

the botton line is our democracy is failing... part of the reason is complacency. Our system appeared to have been the model for the world (or we told ourselves that) so we put it on cruise control. One of the features of our complacency is the constant self adulation we practice when we announce our system to be the best the world has ever seen. Truth is we got so caught up in it that we stopped working to maintain that system. When was our last constitutional amendment? It is clear that we stopped trying to form a more perfect union.

The leading cause of our failing democracy is hubris, because hubris is the precursor to complacency, and as the saying goes 'pride goes before the fall'.

There is a large constituency out there that does not think there is a problem with our system at all, perhaps they are right. The system may not be the problem, but the people we have working it are definitely not what the framers anticipated.

Recently, and by that I mean the last 50 years at least, we have leaders that see the Constitution as an obstacle to their angenda, whatever that may be, rather than a guiding principle for greater good. So they look for creative ways to sidestep and in some cases subvert the Constitution. Rather than follow the Constitution they look for ways around it often subverting due process procedures. To assist them in this endeavor they put partisans on the Supreme Court that declared itself the arbiter of what the Constitution says.

We have rules in place that were for a time when travel was by horseback or horse driven carriages and we refuse to change them (why do we need over two months to inaugurate a new president). We keep an Electoral College system that was founded on the belief that the people were not smart enough to pick their president (the irony of that has esacped a lot of folks). We continue to celebrate an amendment that was passed when dane guns were the weapons of the day, when the realities of today are weapons far more lethal.

The world has changed since the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but more importantly the people have changed and to keep up with those changes the Constitution must change.  I know it , you know it, too bad we do not have thinkers that can meet the moment like the framers did for their time.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 08:49:47 PM by Ogaju »

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2020, 08:26:59 PM »

Online gouki88

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Sending federal troops using gestapo tactics into Chicago will result in armed conflict unlike anything we’ve seen in 50+ years.

Gestapo tactics?

Quote
The authors record how the transcribers of these conversations were told to brace themselves for 'terrible things.'  They said; 'The extermination of the Jews was known in the world of the soldier far more than recent investigations of the topic have suggested.'

Because of access to these recordings, no-one can now claim their's was false testimony given under duress; these are the words of soldiers at ease, unaware of the silent recording gizmos capturing their every [dang]ing word.

Some tapes picked up the same theme time and time again; for example, that it was a recurring problem for the S.S. killing squads in Russia to shoot children.  The listeners wondered if this was a moral dilemma - if, in fact, long subsumed humanity was breaking through.

Then one day they listened into a conversation that revealed why killing children was such a problem; it was because they wouldn't keep still.

The recordings also picked up on another theme - 'execution tourism.'

It turned out that many German soldiers serving in Russia or Poland sought out either friends or contacts in the S.S. murder squads and made appointments to go along to witness what was done.



With the rampant anti-Semitism being shared prominently these days, maybe it’s time to remember who the Gestapo really were.
In terms of the Gestapo of the mid-1930s the comparisons are definitely there, to an extent. National powers trying to overrule local law enforcement, like we saw with Göring pushing Hitler to expand the powers of the Gestapo, can be seen with what Trump is doing to places like Portland, and what he seems to be threatening to do to places like New York.

Obviously I doubt we’ll see Trump try and unite the police forces under one man like Hitler did, but the way he’s overriding local authority, deploying secrecy and encouraging cruelty upon civilians is pretty similar, if on a lesser scale

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2020, 08:32:20 PM »

Offline liam

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It is odd that the Congress has ceded its powers to the executive and now the power of the purse which is congressional check on the executive is now been used by the executive in threats to not fund schools if they refuse to follow the wishes of the executive.

is there not a law that the executive must release monies apporpriated by Congress without attaching addional conditions? Didnt the country just go through this with congessional apporpriated aid for Ukraine?

Yeah, the congress said that there's nothing wrong with Trump holding up money for a quid pro quo so now he can do whatever he wants. Trump has a free pass on doing whatever he wants and now he's putting federal troops on Americain streets in unmarked vans.

Hence the question.... have we forgotten what this country was founded on or for?

Yes.

the botton line is our democracy is failing... part of the reason is complacency. Our system appeared to have been the model for the world (or we told ourselves that) so we put it on cruise control. One of the features of our complacency is the constant self adulation we practice when we announce our system to be the best the world has ever seen. Truth is we got so caught up in it that we stopped working to maintain that system. When was our last constitutional amendment? It is clear that we stopped trying to form a more perfect union.

The leading cause of our failing democracy is ubris, because ubris is the precursor to complacency, and as the saying goes 'pride goes before the fall'.

There is a large constituency out there that does not think there is a problem with our system at all, perhaps they are right. The system may not be the problem, but the people we have working it are definitely not what the framers anticipated.

Recently, and by that I mean the last 50 years at least, we have leaders that see the Constitution as an obstacle to their angenda, whatever that may be, rather than a guiding principle for greater good. So they look for creative ways to sidestep and in some cases subvert the Constitution. Rather than follow the Constitution they look for ways around it often subverting due process procedures. To assist them in this endeavor they put partisans on the Supreme Court that declared itself the arbiter of what the Constitution says.

We have rules in place that were for a time when travel was by horseback or horse driven carriages and we refuse to change them (why do we need over two months to inaugurate a new president). We keep an Electoral College system that was founded on the belief that the people were not smart enough to pick their president (the irony of that has esacped a lot of folks). We continue to celebrate an amendment that was passed when dane guns were the weapons of the day, when the realities of today are weapons far more lethal.

The world has changed since the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but more importantly the people have changed and to keep up with those changes the Constitution must change.  I know it , you know it, too bad we do not have thinkers that can meet the moment like the framers did for their time.

It's hubris, not ubris but you are not wrong that it is the problem.

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2020, 08:48:38 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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It is odd that the Congress has ceded its powers to the executive and now the power of the purse which is congressional check on the executive is now been used by the executive in threats to not fund schools if they refuse to follow the wishes of the executive.

is there not a law that the executive must release monies apporpriated by Congress without attaching addional conditions? Didnt the country just go through this with congessional apporpriated aid for Ukraine?

Yeah, the congress said that there's nothing wrong with Trump holding up money for a quid pro quo so now he can do whatever he wants. Trump has a free pass on doing whatever he wants and now he's putting federal troops on Americain streets in unmarked vans.

Hence the question.... have we forgotten what this country was founded on or for?

Yes.

the botton line is our democracy is failing... part of the reason is complacency. Our system appeared to have been the model for the world (or we told ourselves that) so we put it on cruise control. One of the features of our complacency is the constant self adulation we practice when we announce our system to be the best the world has ever seen. Truth is we got so caught up in it that we stopped working to maintain that system. When was our last constitutional amendment? It is clear that we stopped trying to form a more perfect union.

The leading cause of our failing democracy is ubris, because ubris is the precursor to complacency, and as the saying goes 'pride goes before the fall'.

There is a large constituency out there that does not think there is a problem with our system at all, perhaps they are right. The system may not be the problem, but the people we have working it are definitely not what the framers anticipated.

Recently, and by that I mean the last 50 years at least, we have leaders that see the Constitution as an obstacle to their angenda, whatever that may be, rather than a guiding principle for greater good. So they look for creative ways to sidestep and in some cases subvert the Constitution. Rather than follow the Constitution they look for ways around it often subverting due process procedures. To assist them in this endeavor they put partisans on the Supreme Court that declared itself the arbiter of what the Constitution says.

We have rules in place that were for a time when travel was by horseback or horse driven carriages and we refuse to change them (why do we need over two months to inaugurate a new president). We keep an Electoral College system that was founded on the belief that the people were not smart enough to pick their president (the irony of that has esacped a lot of folks). We continue to celebrate an amendment that was passed when dane guns were the weapons of the day, when the realities of today are weapons far more lethal.

The world has changed since the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but more importantly the people have changed and to keep up with those changes the Constitution must change.  I know it , you know it, too bad we do not have thinkers that can meet the moment like the framers did for their time.

It's hubris, not ubris but you are not wrong that it is the problem.

lol thanks for the correction.

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2020, 10:46:47 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Sending federal troops using gestapo tactics into Chicago will result in armed conflict unlike anything we’ve seen in 50+ years.

Gestapo tactics?

Quote
The authors record how the transcribers of these conversations were told to brace themselves for 'terrible things.'  They said; 'The extermination of the Jews was known in the world of the soldier far more than recent investigations of the topic have suggested.'

Because of access to these recordings, no-one can now claim their's was false testimony given under duress; these are the words of soldiers at ease, unaware of the silent recording gizmos capturing their every [dang]ing word.

Some tapes picked up the same theme time and time again; for example, that it was a recurring problem for the S.S. killing squads in Russia to shoot children.  The listeners wondered if this was a moral dilemma - if, in fact, long subsumed humanity was breaking through.

Then one day they listened into a conversation that revealed why killing children was such a problem; it was because they wouldn't keep still.

The recordings also picked up on another theme - 'execution tourism.'

It turned out that many German soldiers serving in Russia or Poland sought out either friends or contacts in the S.S. murder squads and made appointments to go along to witness what was done.



With the rampant anti-Semitism being shared prominently these days, maybe it’s time to remember who the Gestapo really were.
In terms of the Gestapo of the mid-1930s the comparisons are definitely there, to an extent. National powers trying to overrule local law enforcement, like we saw with Göring pushing Hitler to expand the powers of the Gestapo, can be seen with what Trump is doing to places like Portland, and what he seems to be threatening to do to places like New York.

Obviously I doubt we’ll see Trump try and unite the police forces under one man like Hitler did, but the way he’s overriding local authority, deploying secrecy and encouraging cruelty upon civilians is pretty similar, if on a lesser scale

Not particularly close.  I think it’s a lazy, callous comparison.  Sending federal police to protect federal property isn’t a “Gestapo tactic”, it’s jurisdiction.  When Cliven Bundy and his crazy family were occupying federal land, who did Obama send in?  Federal agents. 

I’m curious, what’s your sense of what’s going on in Portland?  And where are you getting your news from?
Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2020, 11:36:36 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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It is odd that the Congress has ceded its powers to the executive and now the power of the purse which is congressional check on the executive is now been used by the executive in threats to not fund schools if they refuse to follow the wishes of the executive.

is there not a law that the executive must release monies apporpriated by Congress without attaching addional conditions? Didnt the country just go through this with congessional apporpriated aid for Ukraine?

Yeah, the congress said that there's nothing wrong with Trump holding up money for a quid pro quo so now he can do whatever he wants. Trump has a free pass on doing whatever he wants and now he's putting federal troops on Americain streets in unmarked vans.

Hence the question.... have we forgotten what this country was founded on or for?

Yes.

the botton line is our democracy is failing... part of the reason is complacency. Our system appeared to have been the model for the world (or we told ourselves that) so we put it on cruise control. One of the features of our complacency is the constant self adulation we practice when we announce our system to be the best the world has ever seen. Truth is we got so caught up in it that we stopped working to maintain that system. When was our last constitutional amendment? It is clear that we stopped trying to form a more perfect union.

The leading cause of our failing democracy is hubris, because hubris is the precursor to complacency, and as the saying goes 'pride goes before the fall'.

There is a large constituency out there that does not think there is a problem with our system at all, perhaps they are right. The system may not be the problem, but the people we have working it are definitely not what the framers anticipated.

Recently, and by that I mean the last 50 years at least, we have leaders that see the Constitution as an obstacle to their angenda, whatever that may be, rather than a guiding principle for greater good. So they look for creative ways to sidestep and in some cases subvert the Constitution. Rather than follow the Constitution they look for ways around it often subverting due process procedures. To assist them in this endeavor they put partisans on the Supreme Court that declared itself the arbiter of what the Constitution says.

We have rules in place that were for a time when travel was by horseback or horse driven carriages and we refuse to change them (why do we need over two months to inaugurate a new president). We keep an Electoral College system that was founded on the belief that the people were not smart enough to pick their president (the irony of that has esacped a lot of folks). We continue to celebrate an amendment that was passed when dane guns were the weapons of the day, when the realities of today are weapons far more lethal.

The world has changed since the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but more importantly the people have changed and to keep up with those changes the Constitution must change.  I know it , you know it, too bad we do not have thinkers that can meet the moment like the framers did for their time.

The Constitution can change, but there's a specific process for doing that. As opposed to the "Let's create 'new' Constitutional rights by judicial fiat" that we've gotten so much of for the last 100+ years.
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Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2020, 11:37:56 PM »

Offline liam

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Sending federal troops using gestapo tactics into Chicago will result in armed conflict unlike anything we’ve seen in 50+ years.

Gestapo tactics?

Quote
The authors record how the transcribers of these conversations were told to brace themselves for 'terrible things.'  They said; 'The extermination of the Jews was known in the world of the soldier far more than recent investigations of the topic have suggested.'

Because of access to these recordings, no-one can now claim their's was false testimony given under duress; these are the words of soldiers at ease, unaware of the silent recording gizmos capturing their every [dang]ing word.

Some tapes picked up the same theme time and time again; for example, that it was a recurring problem for the S.S. killing squads in Russia to shoot children.  The listeners wondered if this was a moral dilemma - if, in fact, long subsumed humanity was breaking through.

Then one day they listened into a conversation that revealed why killing children was such a problem; it was because they wouldn't keep still.

The recordings also picked up on another theme - 'execution tourism.'

It turned out that many German soldiers serving in Russia or Poland sought out either friends or contacts in the S.S. murder squads and made appointments to go along to witness what was done.



With the rampant anti-Semitism being shared prominently these days, maybe it’s time to remember who the Gestapo really were.
In terms of the Gestapo of the mid-1930s the comparisons are definitely there, to an extent. National powers trying to overrule local law enforcement, like we saw with Göring pushing Hitler to expand the powers of the Gestapo, can be seen with what Trump is doing to places like Portland, and what he seems to be threatening to do to places like New York.

Obviously I doubt we’ll see Trump try and unite the police forces under one man like Hitler did, but the way he’s overriding local authority, deploying secrecy and encouraging cruelty upon civilians is pretty similar, if on a lesser scale

Not particularly close.  I think it’s a lazy, callous comparison.  Sending federal police to protect federal property isn’t a “Gestapo tactic”, it’s jurisdiction.  When Cliven Bundy and his crazy family were occupying federal land, who did Obama send in?  Federal agents. 

I’m curious, what’s your sense of what’s going on in Portland?  And where are you getting your news from?

I have no problem with federal troops on federal land but they seemed to have overstepped in Portland. From what I've heard from Trump officials the overstepping was part of the plan and they plan on doing it again in other cities.

Quote
President Trump says he may send "more federal law enforcement" to New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, Baltimore, Oakland, and other cities to deal with unrest: "In Portland they’ve done a fantastic job."
Quote


Quote

Senator Rand Paul
@RandPaul
We cannot give up liberty for security. Local law enforcement can and should be handling these situations in our cities but there is no place for federal troops or unidentified federal agents rounding people up at will.
Quote


Quote
Justice Department officials tell the I-Team this week they will announce the expansion of a program aimed at reducing violence in Chicago and perhaps some other cities.
Quote
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 12:18:57 AM by liam »

Re: Federal law enforcement in US cities / Portland riots
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2020, 08:55:04 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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When a University bans a conservative from making a public speaking engagement because they don't like his message, yes, we are becoming what we fought against in WW2 against the Nazi party and their control of free speech.
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