Author Topic: Have we become what we fought against?  (Read 2469 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2020, 06:30:37 PM »

Online Ogaju

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12254
  • Tommy Points: 1283
The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

I hear you on voting but I raise you one point. The power to vote could be strengthened by allowing the people the power to remove when they deem fit and not just every four years. An elected official will behave much better and much more in the people's interest when he realizes his four year tenure is not guaranteed, and it is subject to some sort of no confidence vote mechanism. We can do it, we just need the will. With the advances of information technology more power can be given to the people which of course the ruling elites do not want.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2020, 06:39:07 PM »

Online gouki88

  • Global Moderator
  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13929
  • Tommy Points: 795
  • 2019 CS Historical Draft Champion
The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

I hear you on voting but I raise you one point. The power to vote could be strengthened by allowing the people the power to remove when they deem fit and not just every four years. An elected official will behave much better and much more in the people's interest when he realizes his four year tenure is not guaranteed, and it is subject to some sort of no confidence vote mechanism. We can do it, we just need the will. With the advances of information technology more power can be given to the people which of course the ruling elites do not want.
This would lead to far too turbulent a governing body

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2020, 07:04:19 PM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18896
  • Tommy Points: 1379
The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

I hear you on voting but I raise you one point. The power to vote could be strengthened by allowing the people the power to remove when they deem fit and not just every four years. An elected official will behave much better and much more in the people's interest when he realizes his four year tenure is not guaranteed, and it is subject to some sort of no confidence vote mechanism. We can do it, we just need the will. With the advances of information technology more power can be given to the people which of course the ruling elites do not want.
This would lead to far too turbulent a governing body

More turbulent than now?

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2020, 07:24:28 PM »

Online Ogaju

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12254
  • Tommy Points: 1283
The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

I hear you on voting but I raise you one point. The power to vote could be strengthened by allowing the people the power to remove when they deem fit and not just every four years. An elected official will behave much better and much more in the people's interest when he realizes his four year tenure is not guaranteed, and it is subject to some sort of no confidence vote mechanism. We can do it, we just need the will. With the advances of information technology more power can be given to the people which of course the ruling elites do not want.
This would lead to far too turbulent a governing body

quite to the contrary  I think it will make the president less authoritarian.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2020, 09:05:53 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7365
  • Tommy Points: 178
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.

Heck, the Supreme Court wasn't even originally given the power of judicial review—the power to determine whether legislation is constitutional—because that would give the Court too much power. But that's exactly what's happened. Edited for discussing an off limits topic. The Supreme Court originally was supposed to merely rule as to whether something was legal or illegal according to the written laws of the land—the Court was not to decide whether the laws were constitutional to begin with. The downward spiral started a long time ago, back in the 1800s, and it's led to the ridiculous judicial activism we've witnessed in the last 50+ years.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 08:07:15 AM by gouki88 »
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2020, 10:30:12 PM »

Online Ogaju

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12254
  • Tommy Points: 1283
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.

Heck, the Supreme Court wasn't even originally given the power of judicial review—the power to determine whether legislation is constitutional—because that would give the Court too much power. But that's exactly what's happened. It's the main reason the Big A is "constitutional" in all 50 states despite not even being hinted at in the Constitution. The Supreme Court originally was supposed to merely rule as to whether something was legal or illegal according to the written laws of the land—the Court was not to decide whether the laws were constitutional to begin with. The downward spiral started a long time ago, back in the 1800s, and it's led to the ridiculous judicial activism we've witnessed in the last 50+ years.

and you can see how this could lead to a tyranny of 5 if we get 5 like mind justices with life time appointments to the Court. The Supreme Court as currently constituted is as undemocratic as it gets. A president with limited term with the power to name justices to the Court with life time terms means that a president with a Supreme Court nominee may be able to leave an indelible stamp on the country for years after his limited term. The people MUST have more of a say in the selection and duration of federal judges.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2020, 10:38:20 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5057
  • Tommy Points: 829
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.


I would submit that the problem isn't whether the federal government has too much power but rather that the power that the federal government is not exercised in a representative manner consistent with the will of the people.

You complain about the Supreme Court?  The makeup of the SC is determined by the President and the Senate - neither body of which is democratically determined.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2020, 12:33:38 AM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18896
  • Tommy Points: 1379
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.


I would submit that the problem isn't whether the federal government has too much power but rather that the power that the federal government is not exercised in a representative manner consistent with the will of the people.

You complain about the Supreme Court?  The makeup of the SC is determined by the President and the Senate - neither body of which is democratically determined.

You are right the US government is a non-repersentational government. 

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2020, 01:31:41 AM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7365
  • Tommy Points: 178
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.


I would submit that the problem isn't whether the federal government has too much power but rather that the power that the federal government is not exercised in a representative manner consistent with the will of the people.

You complain about the Supreme Court?  The makeup of the SC is determined by the President and the Senate - neither body of which is democratically determined.

My problem with the SC is not its makeup, but the fact that it wields far more power than it was supposed to.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2020, 03:15:07 PM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18896
  • Tommy Points: 1379
Quote
PORTLAND, Ore. — The federal agents facing a growing backlash for their militarized approach to weeks of unrest in Portland were not specifically trained in riot control or mass demonstrations, an internal Department of Homeland Security memo warned this past week.

The message, dated Thursday, was prepared by the agency for Chad F. Wolf, the acting secretary of Homeland Security, as he arrived in Portland to view the scene in person, according to a copy of the memo obtained by The New York Times. It listed federal buildings in the city and issues officers faced in protecting them.

The memo, seemingly anticipating future encounters with protesters in other cities as the department follows President Donald Trump’s guidance to crack down on unrest, warns: “Moving forward, if this type of response is going to be the norm, specialized training and standardized equipment should be deployed to responding agencies."

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2020, 03:29:27 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 41882
  • Tommy Points: -27134
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.


I would submit that the problem isn't whether the federal government has too much power but rather that the power that the federal government is not exercised in a representative manner consistent with the will of the people.

You complain about the Supreme Court?  The makeup of the SC is determined by the President and the Senate - neither body of which is democratically determined.

My problem with the SC is not its makeup, but the fact that it wields far more power than it was supposed to.

Agreed.  The SC did a great job for roughly the first century, and then more and more waded into creating rights guaranteed by the Constitution.  I happen to agree with many of those “rights”, and disagree with others, but none are mandated by the Constitution.
Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2020, 03:44:21 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7365
  • Tommy Points: 178
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.


I would submit that the problem isn't whether the federal government has too much power but rather that the power that the federal government is not exercised in a representative manner consistent with the will of the people.

You complain about the Supreme Court?  The makeup of the SC is determined by the President and the Senate - neither body of which is democratically determined.

My problem with the SC is not its makeup, but the fact that it wields far more power than it was supposed to.

Agreed.  The SC did a great job for roughly the first century, and then more and more waded into creating rights guaranteed by the Constitution.  I happen to agree with many of those “rights”, and disagree with others, but none are mandated by the Constitution.

Precisely. And this has led to the federal government having the power to decide many issues that should've been left to the individual states to decide for themselves. So the concept of states' rights has been watered down.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2020, 04:51:00 PM »

Online Ogaju

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12254
  • Tommy Points: 1283
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.


I would submit that the problem isn't whether the federal government has too much power but rather that the power that the federal government is not exercised in a representative manner consistent with the will of the people.

You complain about the Supreme Court?  The makeup of the SC is determined by the President and the Senate - neither body of which is democratically determined.

My problem with the SC is not its makeup, but the fact that it wields far more power than it was supposed to.

Agreed.  The SC did a great job for roughly the first century, and then more and more waded into creating rights guaranteed by the Constitution.  I happen to agree with many of those “rights”, and disagree with others, but none are mandated by the Constitution.

Yep the Court has been busy creating and expanding constitutional rights, and dont forget it also took time out of that busy schedule to select a president in 2000.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2020, 05:43:09 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 41882
  • Tommy Points: -27134
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.


I would submit that the problem isn't whether the federal government has too much power but rather that the power that the federal government is not exercised in a representative manner consistent with the will of the people.

You complain about the Supreme Court?  The makeup of the SC is determined by the President and the Senate - neither body of which is democratically determined.

My problem with the SC is not its makeup, but the fact that it wields far more power than it was supposed to.

Agreed.  The SC did a great job for roughly the first century, and then more and more waded into creating rights guaranteed by the Constitution.  I happen to agree with many of those “rights”, and disagree with others, but none are mandated by the Constitution.

Yep the Court has been busy creating and expanding constitutional rights, and dont forget it also took time out of that busy schedule to select a president in 2000.

Bush v Gore was a very strange decision, but ultimately various groups completed the recounts, and Bush still won.
Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2020, 07:33:25 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5057
  • Tommy Points: 829
Trump is a lightning rod, but our issues started LONG before he was president.

The federal government has WAY more power than the Founders intended, and this is due in large part to a long series of Supreme Court decisions granting more and more powers to the federal branch than the Constitution delineates.


I would submit that the problem isn't whether the federal government has too much power but rather that the power that the federal government is not exercised in a representative manner consistent with the will of the people.

You complain about the Supreme Court?  The makeup of the SC is determined by the President and the Senate - neither body of which is democratically determined.

My problem with the SC is not its makeup, but the fact that it wields far more power than it was supposed to.

Agreed.  The SC did a great job for roughly the first century, and then more and more waded into creating rights guaranteed by the Constitution.  I happen to agree with many of those “rights”, and disagree with others, but none are mandated by the Constitution.

Yep the Court has been busy creating and expanding constitutional rights, and dont forget it also took time out of that busy schedule to select a president in 2000.

This is all arguable, of course.  And clearly the most elite legal scholars of the land (i.e., the members of the SCOTUS) disagree, else they would not have made those decisions.  But maybe Joe Random Blogger knows how to interpret the Constitution better then they did.

Conversely, if one does accept the assertion that the SCOTUS has granted rights not intended by the Constitution, that may be an argument for how the Constitution was simply incomplete.   If you agree with _any_ of the 'rights granted by the SCOTUS' that were not explicitly delineated, then you implicitly agree with that argument.  And that is a reasonable take.  The notion that it is a perfect document authored by perfect men needs to be discarded. 
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.