Author Topic: Have we become what we fought against?  (Read 2485 times)

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Have we become what we fought against?
« on: July 18, 2020, 01:56:54 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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This country was formed on the idea that people are born equal and we will not bow to a King anymore. We did not want a Monarchy. That just does not seem to be working anymore. Looks like we have morphed into a system of serial monarchs with this new concept of the Imperial Presidency. This concept is threatening the American Experiment, and we can see just how putting party over country renders our Constitution weak and undemocratic.

We fought against British rule, and instituted a form of goverment antithetical to the British form of goverment. Not working very well these days, is it?

Clearly the office of the president has proved to be suspect to dictatorial tendencies in the hands of the craft politician that wants to be a dictator. It is now clear that when that happens there is really not a whole lot we can do about it for four years. The British system actually is not vulnerable to this tendency because a vote of no confidence in parliament would lead to new elections and the system would be cleansed of the dictator. See, the British have reduced their Monarchs to mere ceremonial figure heads while we have crafted immense powers in one office, one man or woman who can do a whole lot of damage in four years without much in the Constitution to stop him/her. A Monarch for four years.

The problems are obvious but we are so busy with self adulation that we cannot even stop to see that perhaps it is time to tweak our entire system.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2020, 06:45:01 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.
Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2020, 10:49:27 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Of course the SYSTEM doesn't work. At least not how you'd wanted it to work.

If it did then all power would become chaotic. Established powers wouldn't be able to integrate plans into all institutions that take decades to execute. How can a 'government' control banks, financial institutions, military, law enforcement, courts, media, healthcare, science, universities, education etcetera when it could be replaced every four years (or earlier like you're proposing)?

The system, if you're willing to look past your own interests, is running almost perfectly. Even the supposed chaos in the USA is under control and is no threat for the system to continue as it has worked for over a century.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 11:37:56 AM by RodyTur10 »
Rationalism over beliefs

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2020, 11:21:28 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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We definitely have ceded too much authority to the executive over time.  Executive orders bypassing Congress, granting executive agencies rule-making power that should be Congressí responsibility, and the generalized expansion of federal power that goes back at least until Woodrow Wilson...  they all have contributed to a system that throws checks and balances onto its head.

That said, weíre still not particularly close to a monarchy.  So long as the courts have power, the president will be counterbalanced.
Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2020, 12:23:39 PM »

Offline liam

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We definitely have ceded too much authority to the executive over time.  Executive orders bypassing Congress, granting executive agencies rule-making power that should be Congressí responsibility, and the generalized expansion of federal power that goes back at least until Woodrow Wilson...  they all have contributed to a system that throws checks and balances onto its head.

That said, weíre still not particularly close to a monarchy.  So long as the courts have power, the president will be counterbalanced.

CVongress is the problem. They are simply not doing their job.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2020, 12:52:27 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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We definitely have ceded too much authority to the executive over time.  Executive orders bypassing Congress, granting executive agencies rule-making power that should be Congressí responsibility, and the generalized expansion of federal power that goes back at least until Woodrow Wilson...  they all have contributed to a system that throws checks and balances onto its head.

That said, weíre still not particularly close to a monarchy.  So long as the courts have power, the president will be counterbalanced.

CVongress is the problem. They are simply not doing their job.

Thatís a large part of it.  When Congress doesnít act, naturally somebody will attempt to fill the void.
Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2020, 01:21:36 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

Voting works or doesn't work within a system.   Voting doesn't work if the system for measuring votes is broken.

The Senate is not a democratic mechanism for representing voters.  It represents geography.

The Electoral college is heavily skewed by the same problem:  Two electors from every state are representing geography, not voters.

This leads to the fundamental problem:  Voters, based purely on where they live in the US, do not have equal representation in either the Senate or the election of the President.  The latter is especially egregious since the latter is supposed to be the executor of the office on behalf of ALL the nation.

In addition, we have the further disenfranchisement of millions - yes millions - of 100% pure US Citizens who are robbed by our 'system' of the same federal representation that other US Citizens get because they live in places like the District of Columbia or the various U.S. Territories (i.e., Puerto Rico).

The system is broken.  Voting is broken.   Yes, we still need to advocate that people vote within this system because it is all that we have and it is the necessary first step toward fixing anything.   But make no mistake:  Our democracy is flawed at a deep and fundamental level.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2020, 01:46:31 PM »

Offline liam

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The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

Voting works or doesn't work within a system.   Voting doesn't work if the system for measuring votes is broken.

The Senate is not a democratic mechanism for representing voters.  It represents geography.

The Electoral college is heavily skewed by the same problem:  Two electors from every state are representing geography, not voters.

This leads to the fundamental problem:  Voters, based purely on where they live in the US, do not have equal representation in either the Senate or the election of the President.  The latter is especially egregious since the latter is supposed to be the executor of the office on behalf of ALL the nation.

In addition, we have the further disenfranchisement of millions - yes millions - of 100% pure US Citizens who are robbed by our 'system' of the same federal representation that other US Citizens get because they live in places like the District of Columbia or the various U.S. Territories (i.e., Puerto Rico).

The system is broken.  Voting is broken.   Yes, we still need to advocate that people vote within this system because it is all that we have and it is the necessary first step toward fixing anything.   But make no mistake:  Our democracy is flawed at a deep and fundamental level.

You are right. Why should Rhode Island , where I live, that has a million people in it have the same amount of senators as Texas and New York? It's non-representational goverment.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2020, 03:58:34 PM »

Offline GreenShooter

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More Marxist BS out of our governor in Mass.

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/gov-baker-to-make-school-funding-announcement/2158395/?fbclid=IwAR01CnxK2xrLo9_ro-4nE0kdelpFH8cNdLWpegaFzEAqo0n5Qu2VWx3Ncd0

Snitches get stiches.

We are all grown adults (most on here) and we should be given the benefit of the doubt whether we can maintain our own business. The people that need to be reported are the lowly criminals/rioters/murders/batterers, etc. THEY need to set up a hotline for them, not businesses who are trying to keep their heads above water. This guy is an imbecile and needs to get his priorities in order. I take this covid shet seriously but over the top is too much. Such a turnoff to even report the ones who DO step over the line. Should be able to give them fair warning: "Hey, if you don't smarten up there is a hotline for violators like you".

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2020, 04:55:19 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Those saying "The system doesn't work".....

What do you suggest is done to fix it?

Whatever solutions you come up with - do you honestly believe THOSE suggestions can become reality in either a Trump Administration OR a Biden Administration?

"IF" your suggestions to fix the system become reality - does this REALLY fix anything?

How long would it take your solutions to come to light?

Would these solutions receive Bi-Partisan support?

And LASTLY - (but certainly NOT least) do your solutions do ANYTHING to bring Police Reform to light in this country.......? Some form of Police Accountability......?

I still believe MOST defunding is a bad idea. I DO believe that those ASKING for it need to better DEFINE what they want done - rather than let TRUMP do it.

In closing - YES - I firmly believe Police Accountability for the FEW Bad Apples out there is MOST important than reforming the system........

Do folks HERE think that Reforming the System is the ONLY way to bring about what I ask?
Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2020, 04:57:56 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

Voting works or doesn't work within a system.   Voting doesn't work if the system for measuring votes is broken.

The Senate is not a democratic mechanism for representing voters.  It represents geography.

The Electoral college is heavily skewed by the same problem:  Two electors from every state are representing geography, not voters.

This leads to the fundamental problem:  Voters, based purely on where they live in the US, do not have equal representation in either the Senate or the election of the President.  The latter is especially egregious since the latter is supposed to be the executor of the office on behalf of ALL the nation.

In addition, we have the further disenfranchisement of millions - yes millions - of 100% pure US Citizens who are robbed by our 'system' of the same federal representation that other US Citizens get because they live in places like the District of Columbia or the various U.S. Territories (i.e., Puerto Rico).

The system is broken.  Voting is broken.   Yes, we still need to advocate that people vote within this system because it is all that we have and it is the necessary first step toward fixing anything.   But make no mistake:  Our democracy is flawed at a deep and fundamental level.

You are right. Why should Rhode Island , where I live, that has a million people in it have the same amount of senators as Texas and New York? It's non-representational goverment.

Each state is supposed to be co-equal to an extent.  This helps maintain critical regional cultural differences in approach to the way people live and the way they best see fit to govern themselves. Also, the federal government was never intended to be the overseer of all things, and if people would take more accountability on local/state levels of government things would run more smoothly.  I can promise you the electoral system holds this country together far more than you realize.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2020, 05:05:34 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

Voting works or doesn't work within a system.   Voting doesn't work if the system for measuring votes is broken.

The Senate is not a democratic mechanism for representing voters.  It represents geography.

The Electoral college is heavily skewed by the same problem:  Two electors from every state are representing geography, not voters.

This leads to the fundamental problem:  Voters, based purely on where they live in the US, do not have equal representation in either the Senate or the election of the President.  The latter is especially egregious since the latter is supposed to be the executor of the office on behalf of ALL the nation.

In addition, we have the further disenfranchisement of millions - yes millions - of 100% pure US Citizens who are robbed by our 'system' of the same federal representation that other US Citizens get because they live in places like the District of Columbia or the various U.S. Territories (i.e., Puerto Rico).

The system is broken.  Voting is broken.   Yes, we still need to advocate that people vote within this system because it is all that we have and it is the necessary first step toward fixing anything.   But make no mistake:  Our democracy is flawed at a deep and fundamental level.

You are right. Why should Rhode Island , where I live, that has a million people in it have the same amount of senators as Texas and New York? It's non-representational goverment.

Because we live in a federal republic.  Why do you think places like RI, Maine, Wyoming, Montana, etc. get any federal appropriations at all?  Itís because they have Senators fighting for them.

Would you prefer a system where CA, TX, NY and FL get the vast majority of Federal spending?  Would you prefer that New England as a whole gets about 2.5% of total representatives? 
Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2020, 05:51:08 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

Voting works or doesn't work within a system.   Voting doesn't work if the system for measuring votes is broken.

The Senate is not a democratic mechanism for representing voters.  It represents geography.

The Electoral college is heavily skewed by the same problem:  Two electors from every state are representing geography, not voters.

This leads to the fundamental problem:  Voters, based purely on where they live in the US, do not have equal representation in either the Senate or the election of the President.  The latter is especially egregious since the latter is supposed to be the executor of the office on behalf of ALL the nation.

In addition, we have the further disenfranchisement of millions - yes millions - of 100% pure US Citizens who are robbed by our 'system' of the same federal representation that other US Citizens get because they live in places like the District of Columbia or the various U.S. Territories (i.e., Puerto Rico).

The system is broken.  Voting is broken.   Yes, we still need to advocate that people vote within this system because it is all that we have and it is the necessary first step toward fixing anything.   But make no mistake:  Our democracy is flawed at a deep and fundamental level.

You are right. Why should Rhode Island , where I live, that has a million people in it have the same amount of senators as Texas and New York? It's non-representational goverment.

Because we live in a federal republic.  Why do you think places like RI, Maine, Wyoming, Montana, etc. get any federal appropriations at all?  Itís because they have Senators fighting for them.

Would you prefer a system where CA, TX, NY and FL get the vast majority of Federal spending?  Would you prefer that New England as a whole gets about 2.5% of total representatives?

The vast majority of federal spending should correlate with the welfare and intent of the vast majority of citizens.

The elevation of 'states' as sovereign differentiators is arbitrary and less and less meaningful in a diverse and mobile citizenry.

The idea that two citizens could live a mile apart across a state border and have vastly different federal representation is indefensible.

The idea that one, as a citizen, could become completely disenfranchised from the election of the President -- a man who's actions have tremendous effect on people's very lives -- and lose representation in the Senate, should one simply move to a U.S. territory (perhaps to take a job) is indefensible.   And yes, one could pay the expense of maintaining a residence in the 50 states and thus vote via absentee mail-in ballot.   But that makes it a very expensive poll tax.

Saying that we live in a republic (as opposed to a pure democracy) doesn't make it any less broken, because as a republic, it is still (ideally) supposed to be representative.   The current system that we have is absurdly far short of representative.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2020, 05:55:58 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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The "SYSTEM" is not perfect.

But it DOES work...."voting" - that is.

Must ensure VOTING RIGHTS are there for ALL PEOPLE - especially in THESE TIMES.

After all - 63 Million people looked past Pres. Trump's faults - and they are MANY - and made the system work for THEM.

Us on the OTHER SIDE - either sat home and DIDN'T vote...voted for someone else (Jill Stein) or crossed the line and voted for him.

The SYSTEM WORKS....it DOES.

VOTE.

Vote on the LOCAL levels.......vote on the STATE levels.....vote on the NATIONAL levels.

Make SURE the people you vote for has your BEST interests at heart....you / me - won't get a Christmas list to chose from, but MOST people want the SAME THINGS.....we DO...Republican, Democrat OR Independent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that some became complacent in 2016.....I think that is why we're where we're at, now.

The System Works. MAKE it work.

Voting works or doesn't work within a system.   Voting doesn't work if the system for measuring votes is broken.

The Senate is not a democratic mechanism for representing voters.  It represents geography.

The Electoral college is heavily skewed by the same problem:  Two electors from every state are representing geography, not voters.

This leads to the fundamental problem:  Voters, based purely on where they live in the US, do not have equal representation in either the Senate or the election of the President.  The latter is especially egregious since the latter is supposed to be the executor of the office on behalf of ALL the nation.

In addition, we have the further disenfranchisement of millions - yes millions - of 100% pure US Citizens who are robbed by our 'system' of the same federal representation that other US Citizens get because they live in places like the District of Columbia or the various U.S. Territories (i.e., Puerto Rico).

The system is broken.  Voting is broken.   Yes, we still need to advocate that people vote within this system because it is all that we have and it is the necessary first step toward fixing anything.   But make no mistake:  Our democracy is flawed at a deep and fundamental level.

You are right. Why should Rhode Island , where I live, that has a million people in it have the same amount of senators as Texas and New York? It's non-representational goverment.

Because we live in a federal republic.  Why do you think places like RI, Maine, Wyoming, Montana, etc. get any federal appropriations at all?  Itís because they have Senators fighting for them.

Would you prefer a system where CA, TX, NY and FL get the vast majority of Federal spending?  Would you prefer that New England as a whole gets about 2.5% of total representatives?

The vast majority of federal spending should correlate with the welfare and intent of the vast majority of citizens.

The elevation of 'states' as sovereign differentiators is arbitrary and less and less meaningful in a diverse and mobile citizenry.

The idea that two citizens could live a mile apart across a state border and have vastly different federal representation is indefensible.

The idea that one, as a citizen, could become completely disenfranchised from the election of the President -- a man who's actions have tremendous effect on people's very lives -- and lose representation in the Senate, should one simply move to a U.S. territory (perhaps to take a job) is indefensible.   And yes, one could pay the expense of maintaining a residence in the 50 states and thus vote via absentee mail-in ballot.   But that makes it a very expensive poll tax.

Saying that we live in a republic (as opposed to a pure democracy) doesn't make it any less broken, because as a republic, it is still (ideally) supposed to be representative.   The current system that we have is absurdly far short of representative.

Itís supposed to be representative of the 50 sovereign states, and it is.  The issues in each region are wildly different, as the Founders could see even when the United States was just the east coast.

But, luckily, our system isnít going anywhere.
Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: Have we become what we fought against?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2020, 06:25:08 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Of course the SYSTEM doesn't work. At least not how you'd wanted it to work.

If it did then all power would become chaotic. Established powers wouldn't be able to integrate plans into all institutions that take decades to execute. How can a 'government' control banks, financial institutions, military, law enforcement, courts, media, healthcare, science, universities, education etcetera when it could be replaced every four years (or earlier like you're proposing)?

The system, if you're willing to look past your own interests, is running almost perfectly. Even the supposed chaos in the USA is under control and is no threat for the system to continue as it has worked for over a century.

You have to explain the bolded a little bit more, are you advocating MORE executive power to the President/ And a longer term so that he can control banks, financial institutions, military, law enforcement, courts, media, healthcare, science, universities, education, etcetera? I do not get your point.

The main thesis of my post is that we fought against a Monarchy, yet everyday we move closer to one because our executives have become out of control for a number of reasons.

1. They grab more power to themsleves such as waging wars without congressional approval.
2. Waging wars based on lies (WMD)
3. Waging surrogate or secret wars that we do not even know about (drone strikes)
4. Assasinations that are supposed to be illegal.
5. Executive orders such as DACA and Muslim ban
6. Recess appointments to positions that require congressional approval.
7. Using defense funds for bnuilding walls.

The executive has aggrandized power to itself and there is nothing the people can do for years and years especially if that executive controls his party and congress. A true democracy or representative government should have a mechanism to remove an outlaw executive at ANYTIME. Othersise what you have is a serial monarchy.