Author Topic: Taking down statues and monuments - righting wrongs or rewriting history?  (Read 6565 times)

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Offline angryguy77

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

TP, and well said. I'm feeling a lot of the same things you are. I'm hearing a lot about the evils of the "rich old white men" who founded this country—like they were devils and not simply imperfect humans who nonetheless gave up much of their wealth and station to birth this country—and I sometimes get the sense—even though I'm not old (44), and I'm far from rich—that people want me to feel bad (ashamed?) because I'm a white American Christian male. Like that's somehow an inherently bad thing to be.

Perspectives: 

For most of the last couple of hundred years, the popular perspectives that were shared and taught in schools were exclusively the perspectives promulgated by 'rich old white men'.

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically nearly wiped out by those rich old white men who took their land and resources from them (Aside:  The Supreme Court just handed a big chunk of it in Oklahoma BACK to them!).   

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically kidnapped and brought unwilling to this land as slaves by those rich old white men.

These people are finding a voice and sharing their perspectives.  It's perspective based on their reality and it's not going to be pretty because it wasn't pretty for the people who have been ground under the heels of 'rich white men' all this time.

You'll have to excuse folks if a lot of them don't have a lot of empathy for your feelings that poor helpless 'rich old white men' are being unfairly picked on.

Yet what the "old white men" didn't teach you was about the number of blacks who owned slaves as well. Maybe we can learn that whites don't own the entire history of slavery in the US, or the globe for that matter. Why do you only include old white men in this?

Why do we also pretend that indians didn't engage in wars of expansion and also had slaves?

Last question which wasn't addressed from my post yesterday is, why is the US being the only thing held accountable for actions that were committed long before settlers first arrived?

This is why motives of certain movements are questioned. The Americas were a violent place long before "old white guys" sailed the Atlantic.  The US is being held for crimes that others committed as well. This doesn't absolve the wrong that was committed, but I do believe if we keep this perspective that maybe we can see that maybe the world as a whole was just a dangerous place. We'll never be united as a country if we keep this myopic view of history alive.

Offline mmmmm

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Can you provide a link to an example of an actual civil-rights movement-associated effort calling for the removal of any such privately owned statue off of private land?   I'm sure such a thing anecdotally exists (because it's a big wide, varied world) but I could not find such.

Do you even know the history behind the Lenin statue?  It was literally reclaimed off a scrap yard and was saved mainly as a novelty with the hope to sell it.  It isn't set up for anyone to 'honor'.  If it's existence offends you, why don't you buy it and destroy it?  I can almost guarantee you not many would care if you did.   You could probably raise the money via GoFundme.   Good luck.


The very same people who you claim are not aggressive to private property are the very same people throwing molotovs into store windows. I can't believe you're even trying to make this case to be honest. That isn't a civil rights movement, that is terrorism. Ripping down a statue of Fredrick Douglas, one that was paid for by freed slaves, and others of those who LITERALLY gave their life to free black people is not the mark of a civil rights movement.
You are moving goal posts.   This discussion was about removing statues because of political / cultural meanings.

Your are also making huge, sweeping false equivalences, equating a tiny percentage of looters & rioters with much larger, overwhelmingly peaceful political protest movements - and you make this equivalence even as you identify that no, such looters are not a political movement.

You are angryguy, I get it.  But your anger is scattershot all over the place.
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Be honest, do you really think if the mob walked by a house with a statue of Lee or Columbus they would say "well that's on private property so we'll respect that." The very same people who would deface the Lincoln memorial wouldn't rip down a statue because of a no tresspassing sign? It doesn't matter what kind of property these things are on. They've said they will "burn it all down" until their demands are met.
Please provide an actual example of this ever happening.  Thx.
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I know the history of this statue. On one hand we have the calls to remove statues of patriots, on the other we have crickets over a statue of a man who murdered millions. You go ahead and justify this hypocrisy all you want.

Ah yes.  This tired logical fallacy.   Because one didn't criticize bad thing X one is a hypocrite for criticizing bad thing Y.   

Sorry, bad thing Y is still a bad thing independent of whether one called out X as well.    One is not a hypocrite just because one doesn't call out every single equally-or-worse bad thing.   

The reality is that 99.99999% of folks around the country have probably never even _heard_ of the Lenin statue that apparently has triggered your anger so strongly.   They aren't hypocrites for not calling for it's immediate destruction.   They simply have other things on their minds.

Again:  Please start a GoFundMe to purchase and destroy the Lenin statue.  It is for sale.  Nothing is truly stopping you from securing it's destruction if you care about it that much.   I promise I will donate to it.

No I’m not moving goalposts at all. You seem to think because civil rights movements don’t destroy status on private property, that somehow means not calling for the removal of a statue of lenin, that is visible to the public, is not hypocritical. It’s promoted by the city’s website. Can I ask you if the feds ask property owners if they can put a statue on their property, or do they usually put it on gov owned land? Your whole excuse for this is based on something that isn’t grounded in reality. The issue yet again is these people tearing down statues are not engaging in a movement, it is mob rule at best, terrorism at the worst.


https://www.newsweek.com/blm-leader-well-burn-system-down-if-us-wont-give-us-what-we-want-1513422
 
In addition to this call for violence, we also had a BLM leader call for the removal of pictures of Jesus on private property that are white. Now we have their actual words and demands, but I’m way off base for pointing out the Lenin statue. I’m sure they will stop at the property line.

“The presence of this sculpture has evoked a wide range of responses. If art is supposed to make us feel, not just feel good, then this sculpture is a successful work of art. The challenge is to understand that this piece means different things to different people and to learn to listen to each other and respect different opinions. From an artists standpoint, all points of view are valid and important.”  It’s sad those on the left seemingly only feel this way about their approved art.

You keep thinking it makes me angry, and no it doesn’t. I don’t believe we should engage in tactics that are a go-to in Marxist revolutions. In fact, I agree with the statement from the statue’s website:

 I’m just pointing out as I said a blatant hypocrisy.  It’s not about your “Y” and “X” logic, it’s about being consistent. They are engaging in a purge of “evil” representation in our country. If you are going to purge and say you have the moral authority to do it, then you do not get to pick and choose. This is an all or nothing game they are playing, or so they want you think.

To give you more evidence that this isn’t about race bur replacing our culture, there are statues of Robert Byrd, LBJ, Margret Sanger left unmolested. I’m not aware of any actual calls for their removal by leaders of BLM and others.  President Franklin Pierce of NH, President James Buchanan of PA and presidential candidate Stephen Douglas, all defenders of slavery, are surprisingly left alone.

You also are really trying hard to make me say every single person who has marched is committing these acts of anarchy. I have not said that nor will I. Many have though and that is undeniable.

Again you are waving a flamethrower of anger around.  You are calling _somebody_ hypocrites:  Who specifically?   You say you aren't saying every single person who has marched is committing these acts of anarchy ... but all your language up above was focused only on the 'mob'.   You consistently are basing sweeping assertions on anecdotal examples. 

And your central hypocrisy charge is still absolutely a logical fallacy unless you can name someone specifically defending X while at the same time tearing down Y, when both are equally bad.   And while such hypocrites almost certainly exist, no one on this thread has done such and it certainly doesn't apply to the broad millions of folks involved in these movements who most likely not have even had a moments thought about some of the other 'bad statues' that you named to form an opinion about.

How about you put forth an effort to get people educated and talking about those other 'bad statues'?  Maybe more people than you realize share your opinion on those figures?  Or maybe not.



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Offline indeedproceed

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

It's a fair point to raise

Ok then. I've had as hard a life as anyone in this country I'd bet. Not going into details but I have faced extraordinary amounts of adversity.

But you know what? In the 1700s that theoretical kid IndeedProceed mentioned would have already lost half his brothers and sisters to disease at a young age and would likely have starved to death. It was a completely different universe then. Food, medicine, and guns didn't magically appear in stores, fabricated by machines from far-away places. There was no EBT card coming in the mailbox when times got tough. Volunteering for the military then wasn't a job - it was more likely suicide.

You're missing my point. I'm not even talking about just Americans. I'm saying people do wildly heroic stuff every day just to survive. Washington was born rich and died rich and in between led an interesting and complicated life where he accomplished some amazing things.

But you're the one who said he was braver than 99.99% of humans, and honestly, I call bullcrap. I think we're a species full of grit and determination to better ourselves and everyday in America, in any country in the world there are people who wake up without the liberty of the advantages and choices that Washington had that have to do things honestly I'd see as unthinkable just to survive.

You just don't need the point. Let George Washington be great without telling everyone he's braver than 99.99% of humans.

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The pampered modern crowd has no idea when they bash on historical figures that life was terrible back then for everyone, rich or poor.

I don't know who the pampered modern crowd is, but I've been to Sturbridge Village. I know what's up. 

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Washington was bled go death by his own doctors. We owe a debt to those in the past who struggled against that sort of incredible hardship. THAT is what I mean by "brave." I don't think the modern crowd could hack that type of life. People can't even cope with a couple days without electricity, or an hour without their phone. Judging humans from the 1700s by modern sensibilities is ignorant and self-serving.

So if it was bad for everyone, doesn't that mean that all of the hardships of times Washington faced were unilaterally the same among all people living at the time?

And if it was bad for Washington, an extremely rich person, who owned slaves, wouldn't it have been worse for other people without those advantages? Just randomly picking a group out of a hat here but how about we say....slaves?

And those slaves, who it was worse for, they got up every day knowing they were considered property to man who could do with them as they pleased. And they still put ten toes down the ground each morning (assuming they had actual raised beds to keep away from vermin instead of the more prevalent hay pallets, and assuming that their master or their work or the general brutality of the time hadn't robbed them of one or more of those ten toes), and they went out and tried to survive each day.

Is that not also bravery?

What about the ones who tried to escape, even though they knew that the dogs kept on property were trained to hunt them down and mutilate them to warn other slaves from trying to escape? Is that not also bravery?

George Washington's great. I'm pretty liberal, and I don't want his statues torn down. We owe a lot to him.

But he wasn't braver than 99.99% of humans. That's just farcical proxy beatification. And its unnecessary. And on top of all that, I doubt he'd agree with it.

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Offline mmmmm

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

TP, and well said. I'm feeling a lot of the same things you are. I'm hearing a lot about the evils of the "rich old white men" who founded this country—like they were devils and not simply imperfect humans who nonetheless gave up much of their wealth and station to birth this country—and I sometimes get the sense—even though I'm not old (44), and I'm far from rich—that people want me to feel bad (ashamed?) because I'm a white American Christian male. Like that's somehow an inherently bad thing to be.

Perspectives: 

For most of the last couple of hundred years, the popular perspectives that were shared and taught in schools were exclusively the perspectives promulgated by 'rich old white men'.

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically nearly wiped out by those rich old white men who took their land and resources from them (Aside:  The Supreme Court just handed a big chunk of it in Oklahoma BACK to them!).   

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically kidnapped and brought unwilling to this land as slaves by those rich old white men.

These people are finding a voice and sharing their perspectives.  It's perspective based on their reality and it's not going to be pretty because it wasn't pretty for the people who have been ground under the heels of 'rich white men' all this time.

You'll have to excuse folks if a lot of them don't have a lot of empathy for your feelings that poor helpless 'rich old white men' are being unfairly picked on.

Yet what the "old white men" didn't teach you was about the number of blacks who owned slaves as well. Maybe we can learn that whites don't own the entire history of slavery in the US, or the globe for that matter. Why do you only include old white men in this?

Why do we also pretend that indians didn't engage in wars of expansion and also had slaves?

Last question which wasn't addressed from my post yesterday is, why is the US being the only thing held accountable for actions that were committed long before settlers first arrived?

This is why motives of certain movements are questioned. The Americas were a violent place long before "old white guys" sailed the Atlantic.  The US is being held for crimes that others committed as well. This doesn't absolve the wrong that was committed, but I do believe if we keep this perspective that maybe we can see that maybe the world as a whole was just a dangerous place. We'll never be united as a country if we keep this myopic view of history alive.

Wow.  There is so much wrong here.

Yes, anecdotally there were a tiny, tiny handful of blacks who owned slaves.   That is so ridiculously irrelevant to the point it's not worth talking about.

Yes, differing indigenous tribes often fought each other for a variety of reasons.   That's completely irrelevant.  If two brothers are fighting inside their house, it doesn't have any bearing on how we judge the action of someone who drives a bulldozer through the house, killing both and taking their property.

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Offline kraidstar

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

It's a fair point to raise

Ok then. I've had as hard a life as anyone in this country I'd bet. Not going into details but I have faced extraordinary amounts of adversity.

But you know what? In the 1700s that theoretical kid IndeedProceed mentioned would have already lost half his brothers and sisters to disease at a young age and would likely have starved to death. It was a completely different universe then. Food, medicine, and guns didn't magically appear in stores, fabricated by machines from far-away places. There was no EBT card coming in the mailbox when times got tough. Volunteering for the military then wasn't a job - it was more likely suicide.

You're missing my point. I'm not even talking about just Americans. I'm saying people do wildly heroic stuff every day just to survive. Washington was born rich and died rich and in between led an interesting and complicated life where he accomplished some amazing things.

But you're the one who said he was braver than 99.99% of humans, and honestly, I call bullcrap. I think we're a species full of grit and determination to better ourselves and everyday in America, in any country in the world there are people who wake up without the liberty of the advantages and choices that Washington had that have to do things honestly I'd see as unthinkable just to survive.

You just don't need the point. Let George Washington be great without telling everyone he's braver than 99.99% of humans.

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The pampered modern crowd has no idea when they bash on historical figures that life was terrible back then for everyone, rich or poor.

I don't know who the pampered modern crowd is, but I've been to Sturbridge Village. I know what's up. 

Quote
Washington was bled go death by his own doctors. We owe a debt to those in the past who struggled against that sort of incredible hardship. THAT is what I mean by "brave." I don't think the modern crowd could hack that type of life. People can't even cope with a couple days without electricity, or an hour without their phone. Judging humans from the 1700s by modern sensibilities is ignorant and self-serving.

So if it was bad for everyone, doesn't that mean that all of the hardships of times Washington faced were unilaterally the same among all people living at the time?

And if it was bad for Washington, an extremely rich person, who owned slaves, wouldn't it have been worse for other people without those advantages? Just randomly picking a group out of a hat here but how about we say....slaves?

And those slaves, who it was worse for, they got up every day knowing they were considered property to man who could do with them as they pleased. And they still put ten toes down the ground each morning (assuming they had actual raised beds to keep away from vermin instead of the more prevalent hay pallets, and assuming that their master or their work or the general brutality of the time hadn't robbed them of one or more of those ten toes), and they went out and tried to survive each day.

Is that not also bravery?

What about the ones who tried to escape, even though they knew that the dogs kept on property were trained to hunt them down and mutilate them to warn other slaves from trying to escape? Is that not also bravery?

George Washington's great. I'm pretty liberal, and I don't want his statues torn down. We owe a lot to him.

But he wasn't braver than 99.99% of humans. That's just farcical proxy beatification. And its unnecessary. And on top of all that, I doubt he'd agree with it.

You're taking one piece of hyperbole among a whole bunch of things I've said here and obfuscating my point.

My point was that a bunch of angry modern kids who think they know everything in fact have no clue as to the hardships and complexities of the past. It tales a lot more guts to camp out in Valley Forge for months on end than it does to yank down a statue and insult people on Twitter while chugging lattes at the local cafe.

Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Can you provide a link to an example of an actual civil-rights movement-associated effort calling for the removal of any such privately owned statue off of private land?   I'm sure such a thing anecdotally exists (because it's a big wide, varied world) but I could not find such.

Do you even know the history behind the Lenin statue?  It was literally reclaimed off a scrap yard and was saved mainly as a novelty with the hope to sell it.  It isn't set up for anyone to 'honor'.  If it's existence offends you, why don't you buy it and destroy it?  I can almost guarantee you not many would care if you did.   You could probably raise the money via GoFundme.   Good luck.


The very same people who you claim are not aggressive to private property are the very same people throwing molotovs into store windows. I can't believe you're even trying to make this case to be honest. That isn't a civil rights movement, that is terrorism. Ripping down a statue of Fredrick Douglas, one that was paid for by freed slaves, and others of those who LITERALLY gave their life to free black people is not the mark of a civil rights movement.
You are moving goal posts.   This discussion was about removing statues because of political / cultural meanings.

Your are also making huge, sweeping false equivalences, equating a tiny percentage of looters & rioters with much larger, overwhelmingly peaceful political protest movements - and you make this equivalence even as you identify that no, such looters are not a political movement.

You are angryguy, I get it.  But your anger is scattershot all over the place.
Quote
Be honest, do you really think if the mob walked by a house with a statue of Lee or Columbus they would say "well that's on private property so we'll respect that." The very same people who would deface the Lincoln memorial wouldn't rip down a statue because of a no tresspassing sign? It doesn't matter what kind of property these things are on. They've said they will "burn it all down" until their demands are met.
Please provide an actual example of this ever happening.  Thx.
Quote
I know the history of this statue. On one hand we have the calls to remove statues of patriots, on the other we have crickets over a statue of a man who murdered millions. You go ahead and justify this hypocrisy all you want.

Ah yes.  This tired logical fallacy.   Because one didn't criticize bad thing X one is a hypocrite for criticizing bad thing Y.   

Sorry, bad thing Y is still a bad thing independent of whether one called out X as well.    One is not a hypocrite just because one doesn't call out every single equally-or-worse bad thing.   

The reality is that 99.99999% of folks around the country have probably never even _heard_ of the Lenin statue that apparently has triggered your anger so strongly.   They aren't hypocrites for not calling for it's immediate destruction.   They simply have other things on their minds.

Again:  Please start a GoFundMe to purchase and destroy the Lenin statue.  It is for sale.  Nothing is truly stopping you from securing it's destruction if you care about it that much.   I promise I will donate to it.

No I’m not moving goalposts at all. You seem to think because civil rights movements don’t destroy status on private property, that somehow means not calling for the removal of a statue of lenin, that is visible to the public, is not hypocritical. It’s promoted by the city’s website. Can I ask you if the feds ask property owners if they can put a statue on their property, or do they usually put it on gov owned land? Your whole excuse for this is based on something that isn’t grounded in reality. The issue yet again is these people tearing down statues are not engaging in a movement, it is mob rule at best, terrorism at the worst.


https://www.newsweek.com/blm-leader-well-burn-system-down-if-us-wont-give-us-what-we-want-1513422
 
In addition to this call for violence, we also had a BLM leader call for the removal of pictures of Jesus on private property that are white. Now we have their actual words and demands, but I’m way off base for pointing out the Lenin statue. I’m sure they will stop at the property line.

“The presence of this sculpture has evoked a wide range of responses. If art is supposed to make us feel, not just feel good, then this sculpture is a successful work of art. The challenge is to understand that this piece means different things to different people and to learn to listen to each other and respect different opinions. From an artists standpoint, all points of view are valid and important.”  It’s sad those on the left seemingly only feel this way about their approved art.

You keep thinking it makes me angry, and no it doesn’t. I don’t believe we should engage in tactics that are a go-to in Marxist revolutions. In fact, I agree with the statement from the statue’s website:

 I’m just pointing out as I said a blatant hypocrisy.  It’s not about your “Y” and “X” logic, it’s about being consistent. They are engaging in a purge of “evil” representation in our country. If you are going to purge and say you have the moral authority to do it, then you do not get to pick and choose. This is an all or nothing game they are playing, or so they want you think.

To give you more evidence that this isn’t about race bur replacing our culture, there are statues of Robert Byrd, LBJ, Margret Sanger left unmolested. I’m not aware of any actual calls for their removal by leaders of BLM and others.  President Franklin Pierce of NH, President James Buchanan of PA and presidential candidate Stephen Douglas, all defenders of slavery, are surprisingly left alone.

You also are really trying hard to make me say every single person who has marched is committing these acts of anarchy. I have not said that nor will I. Many have though and that is undeniable.

Again you are waving a flamethrower of anger around.  You are calling _somebody_ hypocrites:  Who specifically?   You say you aren't saying every single person who has marched is committing these acts of anarchy ... but all your language up above was focused only on the 'mob'.   You consistently are basing sweeping assertions on anecdotal examples. 

And your central hypocrisy charge is still absolutely a logical fallacy unless you can name someone specifically defending X while at the same time tearing down Y, when both are equally bad.   And while such hypocrites almost certainly exist, no one on this thread has done such and it certainly doesn't apply to the broad millions of folks involved in these movements who most likely not have even had a moments thought about some of the other 'bad statues' that you named to form an opinion about.

How about you put forth an effort to get people educated and talking about those other 'bad statues'?  Maybe more people than you realize share your opinion on those figures?  Or maybe not.

I've put forth and effort and you played defense for vandals. I've given you a specific reason for this movement. I've given you quotes about how some leaders want to "burn it all down" and yet, you want me to play FBI most wanted. That's not how this works.

The odd thing about this conversation is you haven't even admitted leaving it up contradicts what they state their goal is. You keep making excuses for it.  Is or is it not contradictory for BLM leaders to call on statues of Washington and others to be pulled down, while not calling for the one in question?

Offline indeedproceed

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You're taking one piece of hyperbole among a whole bunch of things I've said here and obfuscating my point.

Yeah, I'm telling you that was an unnecessary thing to say to make your point and describing why.

Quote
My point was that a bunch of angry modern kids who think they know everything in fact have no clue as to the hardships and complexities of the past. It tales a lot more guts to camp out in Valley Forge for months on end than it does to yank down a statue and insult people on Twitter while chugging lattes at the local cafe.

To what end does any of this serve? George Washington had no clue as the hardships and complexities the first protohumans faced trying to survive in a world with a curfew of sunset full of animals that looked at you like prey and thinking that the reason it rained extra hard the other day is because one of the forest creatures smiled at you.

Comparing eras is ridiculous. Sure kids are softer today. They're also smarter and healthier and bigger and live longer and aren't allowed to own slaves. And they have Lattes. Imagine how much better Jefferson and Hamilton would've gotten along if they had lattes and message boards to get banned from.

To what end does this comparison serve? Why is it necessary. Just talk about how great george washington is, you don't need to crap all over the 'kids of today'.

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Offline angryguy77

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

TP, and well said. I'm feeling a lot of the same things you are. I'm hearing a lot about the evils of the "rich old white men" who founded this country—like they were devils and not simply imperfect humans who nonetheless gave up much of their wealth and station to birth this country—and I sometimes get the sense—even though I'm not old (44), and I'm far from rich—that people want me to feel bad (ashamed?) because I'm a white American Christian male. Like that's somehow an inherently bad thing to be.

Perspectives: 

For most of the last couple of hundred years, the popular perspectives that were shared and taught in schools were exclusively the perspectives promulgated by 'rich old white men'.

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically nearly wiped out by those rich old white men who took their land and resources from them (Aside:  The Supreme Court just handed a big chunk of it in Oklahoma BACK to them!).   

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically kidnapped and brought unwilling to this land as slaves by those rich old white men.

These people are finding a voice and sharing their perspectives.  It's perspective based on their reality and it's not going to be pretty because it wasn't pretty for the people who have been ground under the heels of 'rich white men' all this time.

You'll have to excuse folks if a lot of them don't have a lot of empathy for your feelings that poor helpless 'rich old white men' are being unfairly picked on.

Yet what the "old white men" didn't teach you was about the number of blacks who owned slaves as well. Maybe we can learn that whites don't own the entire history of slavery in the US, or the globe for that matter. Why do you only include old white men in this?

Why do we also pretend that indians didn't engage in wars of expansion and also had slaves?

Last question which wasn't addressed from my post yesterday is, why is the US being the only thing held accountable for actions that were committed long before settlers first arrived?

This is why motives of certain movements are questioned. The Americas were a violent place long before "old white guys" sailed the Atlantic.  The US is being held for crimes that others committed as well. This doesn't absolve the wrong that was committed, but I do believe if we keep this perspective that maybe we can see that maybe the world as a whole was just a dangerous place. We'll never be united as a country if we keep this myopic view of history alive.

Wow.  There is so much wrong here.

Yes, anecdotally there were a tiny, tiny handful of blacks who owned slaves.   That is so ridiculously irrelevant to the point it's not worth talking about.

Yes, differing indigenous tribes often fought each other for a variety of reasons.   That's completely irrelevant.  If two brothers are fighting inside their house, it doesn't have any bearing on how we judge the action of someone who drives a bulldozer through the house, killing both and taking their property.

Actually no it's not wrong. Isn't one of the main complaints right now is that justice is not being distributed evenly? How is crucifying America for sins done well before it became a thing remotely fair? If America is to be denounced for these things listed, then so should those that are guilty of the same things. You know what is a fact though? That this land wasn't freed of slavery and war until settled by Europeans. The same "old men" you hate are the same ones that actually ended the barbaric practices you and I find so wrong.

It's estimated that over 3000 free black men owned slaves at one point in America. While they were obviously the minority, they were nevertheless guilty just as the "old white men." So are you now advocating that there are shades of evil when it comes to slaves?

A correct analogy if I may would be 3 people bulldozed the same house at different times, but only one is held accountable.

Online GreenFaith1819

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

Angryguy -

To be frank I'm embarrassed for ANYONE who doesn't see any good in the 1619 Project....

This is my FIRST TIME even HEARING about it....

Let's be REAL, here - the "HISTORY" "I" was taught in High School in the 80s was CERTAINLY one sided.....I mean - we got the customary "Martin Luther King is AWESOME", speech, but beyond that?

Nothing.

I mean - I "PERSONALLY" learned MORE about "TRUE" history from my SHIPMATES (Black and WHITE) while I spent 20 years in the service....

My (Black) Church ALSO taught me about my place in this world....in America....a LOT more than High School taught me.

I "ALSO" served under more BLACK / ETHNIC / Caucasian Men AND Women while in the service....CERTAINLY more diverse than what I've seen out here in Civilian world.

"America" could take some SERIOUS notes on DIVERSITY from the SAME military that some on the RIGHT love to prop up and use politically........................................ ;)

Dear God does my comments above make me LESS American? Of course not. I DO love her.

And Angryguy - I've NEVER been more PROUD of this country when our OWN President Barack Obama gave an inspiring eulugy after the Charleston Church tragedy -



During that ENTIRE video do you see ANY hatred...ANY division....from this man?

He could've (maybe SHOULD HAVE?) been an Angry Black Man and called for rioting and such....but INSTEAD he gave an INSPIRING message of truth and hope....

One that our "current" iteration of the White House is incapable of.

So YES - Angryguy - I "HAVE" seen some inspirational messages from us leftists in this country...messages of hope and UNITY.

And YES - despite your POV America "WILL" survive...she is tougher and more determined than what we all see right now. I DO have faith in her.

Angryguy -

Can I "AT LEAST" get an "Amen",  Brother?
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Offline angryguy77

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

Angryguy -

To be frank I'm embarrassed for ANYONE who doesn't see any good in the 1619 Project....

This is my FIRST TIME even HEARING about it....

Let's be REAL, here - the "HISTORY" "I" was taught in High School in the 80s was CERTAINLY one sided.....I mean - we got the customary "Martin Luther King is AWESOME", speech, but beyond that?

Nothing.

I mean - I "PERSONALLY" learned MORE about "TRUE" history from my SHIPMATES (Black and WHITE) while I spent 20 years in the service....

My (Black) Church ALSO taught me about my place in this world....in America....a LOT more than High School taught me.

I "ALSO" served under more BLACK / ETHNIC / Caucasian Men AND Women while in the service....CERTAINLY more diverse than what I've seen out here in Civilian world.

"America" could take some SERIOUS notes on DIVERSITY from the SAME military that some on the RIGHT love to prop up and use politically........................................ ;)

Dear God does my comments above make me LESS American? Of course not. I DO love her.

And Angryguy - I've NEVER been more PROUD of this country when our OWN President Barack Obama gave an inspiring eulugy after the Charleston Church tragedy -



During that ENTIRE video do you see ANY hatred...ANY division....from this man?

He could've (maybe SHOULD HAVE?) been an Angry Black Man and called for rioting and such....but INSTEAD he gave an INSPIRING message of truth and hope....

One that our "current" iteration of the White House is incapable of.

So YES - Angryguy - I "HAVE" seen some inspirational messages from us leftists in this country...messages of hope and UNITY.

And YES - despite your POV America "WILL" survive...she is tougher and more determined than what we all see right now. I DO have faith in her.

Angryguy -

Can I "AT LEAST" get an "Amen",  Brother?

Haha sorry for leaving out there. I was taken down a different path. I will say I did enjoy the talk and I sincerely hope that your are right on that last part that I take a massive L.

Offline Monkhouse

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Here we go again with the America was built on blood shed so that explains racism...  ::)
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It's based on your perspective, quite simply
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Offline mmmmm

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Can you provide a link to an example of an actual civil-rights movement-associated effort calling for the removal of any such privately owned statue off of private land?   I'm sure such a thing anecdotally exists (because it's a big wide, varied world) but I could not find such.

Do you even know the history behind the Lenin statue?  It was literally reclaimed off a scrap yard and was saved mainly as a novelty with the hope to sell it.  It isn't set up for anyone to 'honor'.  If it's existence offends you, why don't you buy it and destroy it?  I can almost guarantee you not many would care if you did.   You could probably raise the money via GoFundme.   Good luck.


The very same people who you claim are not aggressive to private property are the very same people throwing molotovs into store windows. I can't believe you're even trying to make this case to be honest. That isn't a civil rights movement, that is terrorism. Ripping down a statue of Fredrick Douglas, one that was paid for by freed slaves, and others of those who LITERALLY gave their life to free black people is not the mark of a civil rights movement.
You are moving goal posts.   This discussion was about removing statues because of political / cultural meanings.

Your are also making huge, sweeping false equivalences, equating a tiny percentage of looters & rioters with much larger, overwhelmingly peaceful political protest movements - and you make this equivalence even as you identify that no, such looters are not a political movement.

You are angryguy, I get it.  But your anger is scattershot all over the place.
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Be honest, do you really think if the mob walked by a house with a statue of Lee or Columbus they would say "well that's on private property so we'll respect that." The very same people who would deface the Lincoln memorial wouldn't rip down a statue because of a no tresspassing sign? It doesn't matter what kind of property these things are on. They've said they will "burn it all down" until their demands are met.
Please provide an actual example of this ever happening.  Thx.
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I know the history of this statue. On one hand we have the calls to remove statues of patriots, on the other we have crickets over a statue of a man who murdered millions. You go ahead and justify this hypocrisy all you want.

Ah yes.  This tired logical fallacy.   Because one didn't criticize bad thing X one is a hypocrite for criticizing bad thing Y.   

Sorry, bad thing Y is still a bad thing independent of whether one called out X as well.    One is not a hypocrite just because one doesn't call out every single equally-or-worse bad thing.   

The reality is that 99.99999% of folks around the country have probably never even _heard_ of the Lenin statue that apparently has triggered your anger so strongly.   They aren't hypocrites for not calling for it's immediate destruction.   They simply have other things on their minds.

Again:  Please start a GoFundMe to purchase and destroy the Lenin statue.  It is for sale.  Nothing is truly stopping you from securing it's destruction if you care about it that much.   I promise I will donate to it.

No I’m not moving goalposts at all. You seem to think because civil rights movements don’t destroy status on private property, that somehow means not calling for the removal of a statue of lenin, that is visible to the public, is not hypocritical. It’s promoted by the city’s website. Can I ask you if the feds ask property owners if they can put a statue on their property, or do they usually put it on gov owned land? Your whole excuse for this is based on something that isn’t grounded in reality. The issue yet again is these people tearing down statues are not engaging in a movement, it is mob rule at best, terrorism at the worst.


https://www.newsweek.com/blm-leader-well-burn-system-down-if-us-wont-give-us-what-we-want-1513422
 
In addition to this call for violence, we also had a BLM leader call for the removal of pictures of Jesus on private property that are white. Now we have their actual words and demands, but I’m way off base for pointing out the Lenin statue. I’m sure they will stop at the property line.

“The presence of this sculpture has evoked a wide range of responses. If art is supposed to make us feel, not just feel good, then this sculpture is a successful work of art. The challenge is to understand that this piece means different things to different people and to learn to listen to each other and respect different opinions. From an artists standpoint, all points of view are valid and important.”  It’s sad those on the left seemingly only feel this way about their approved art.

You keep thinking it makes me angry, and no it doesn’t. I don’t believe we should engage in tactics that are a go-to in Marxist revolutions. In fact, I agree with the statement from the statue’s website:

 I’m just pointing out as I said a blatant hypocrisy.  It’s not about your “Y” and “X” logic, it’s about being consistent. They are engaging in a purge of “evil” representation in our country. If you are going to purge and say you have the moral authority to do it, then you do not get to pick and choose. This is an all or nothing game they are playing, or so they want you think.

To give you more evidence that this isn’t about race bur replacing our culture, there are statues of Robert Byrd, LBJ, Margret Sanger left unmolested. I’m not aware of any actual calls for their removal by leaders of BLM and others.  President Franklin Pierce of NH, President James Buchanan of PA and presidential candidate Stephen Douglas, all defenders of slavery, are surprisingly left alone.

You also are really trying hard to make me say every single person who has marched is committing these acts of anarchy. I have not said that nor will I. Many have though and that is undeniable.

Again you are waving a flamethrower of anger around.  You are calling _somebody_ hypocrites:  Who specifically?   You say you aren't saying every single person who has marched is committing these acts of anarchy ... but all your language up above was focused only on the 'mob'.   You consistently are basing sweeping assertions on anecdotal examples. 

And your central hypocrisy charge is still absolutely a logical fallacy unless you can name someone specifically defending X while at the same time tearing down Y, when both are equally bad.   And while such hypocrites almost certainly exist, no one on this thread has done such and it certainly doesn't apply to the broad millions of folks involved in these movements who most likely not have even had a moments thought about some of the other 'bad statues' that you named to form an opinion about.

How about you put forth an effort to get people educated and talking about those other 'bad statues'?  Maybe more people than you realize share your opinion on those figures?  Or maybe not.

I've put forth and effort and you played defense for vandals.
Excuse me, what?  Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere) have I defended any vandals.  Please don't make stuff up.
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I've given you a specific reason for this movement. I've given you quotes about how some leaders want to "burn it all down" and yet, you want me to play FBI most wanted. That's not how this works.
You gave one quote from one guy, speaking in one instance to get people fired up for change and who within the next breath made it clear he was purposely wavering metaphorically to get people fired up and to get people's (yours, I guess) attention.

That hardly counts as representative of the thoughts and goals of millions of other people loosely associated with the protests across the nation.  But I get how it probably provides the delicious nectar of fiery indignation for you.  So keep feeding on that feeling.
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The odd thing about this conversation is you haven't even admitted leaving it up contradicts what they state their goal is.
So ... protesters who have been focused on removing public symbols of white supremacy from public places ... not paying attention to the obscure, privately owned Lenin statue sitting (for sale) on private property ... contradicts what their stated goal is?

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You keep making excuses for it.  Is or is it not contradictory for BLM leaders to call on statues of Washington and others to be pulled down, while not calling for the one in question?

Have you _asked_ BLM leaders about how they feel about the Lenin statue?   Are they even aware that it _exists_?   

But again, if you really think it needs to go, the answer is fairly simple:  Raise money.  Buy it.  Destroy it.  I'm pretty sure the majority of BLM folks probably won't try to stop you.
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Offline kraidstar

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You're taking one piece of hyperbole among a whole bunch of things I've said here and obfuscating my point.

Yeah, I'm telling you that was an unnecessary thing to say to make your point and describing why.

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My point was that a bunch of angry modern kids who think they know everything in fact have no clue as to the hardships and complexities of the past. It tales a lot more guts to camp out in Valley Forge for months on end than it does to yank down a statue and insult people on Twitter while chugging lattes at the local cafe.

To what end does any of this serve? George Washington had no clue as the hardships and complexities the first protohumans faced trying to survive in a world with a curfew of sunset full of animals that looked at you like prey and thinking that the reason it rained extra hard the other day is because one of the forest creatures smiled at you.

Comparing eras is ridiculous. Sure kids are softer today. They're also smarter and healthier and bigger and live longer and aren't allowed to own slaves. And they have Lattes. Imagine how much better Jefferson and Hamilton would've gotten along if they had lattes and message boards to get banned from.

To what end does this comparison serve? Why is it necessary. Just talk about how great george washington is, you don't need to crap all over the 'kids of today'.

LOL yes, comparing eras is ridiculous, isn't it? that's my whole point. And if we're gong to call out ignorance on the right then we might as well call out ignorance on the left too. I don't think that's too controversial of a take on a political thread on an internet forum.

Online Roy H.

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Give this guy a statue, a modest hero:

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A former college football player made the most important catch of his life over the weekend when he caught a 3-year-old boy who was thrown from a burning building in Arizona.

Video from the fire on July 3 shows Phillip Blanks, 28, making a split-second decision to dive and catch the toddler after seeing the boy falling from the third floor of the building in Phoenix.

"He was twirling in the air like a propeller," Blanks told ABC 7. "I just did my best. His head landed perfectly on my elbow. His ankle got twisted up as I was diving. The guy who was there with me — it looked like he wasn't going to catch him. So that's why I stepped in. I just wanted to make a better catch."

The toddler's 8-year-old sister also survived the fire, but their 30-year-old mother, identified by the Washington Post as Rachel Long, died in the fire.

"She's the real hero of the story," Blanks told ABC 7. "Because she made the ultimate sacrifice to save her children."

The children's father, Corey Long, was at work when the fire broke out, The Post reported.


Blanks, who lives in the building where the fire happened, now works in security, but he's also a former US Marine who played football at Michigan's Kalamazoo Central High School, Kalamazoo Valley College, and Saddleback College in Mission Viejo, California.

He credited his quick-thinking to his work in the Marines and security, but also said football helped him make the right move in the moment.

"I know how to catch," he told ABC 7. "I've learned how to catch a football. So I'll give some credit to football."

He also thanked the other bystander who had jumped in to help amid the blaze, D'Artagnan Alexander. He told The Post that Alexander "deserves more recognition."

Blanks and Alexander have been in contact with Corey Long since the incident, and went together to meet him in person.

Semper Fi.  The video is harrowing.  RIP to the mother, who put her babies first.
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Online Neurotic Guy

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You're taking one piece of hyperbole among a whole bunch of things I've said here and obfuscating my point.

Yeah, I'm telling you that was an unnecessary thing to say to make your point and describing why.

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My point was that a bunch of angry modern kids who think they know everything in fact have no clue as to the hardships and complexities of the past. It tales a lot more guts to camp out in Valley Forge for months on end than it does to yank down a statue and insult people on Twitter while chugging lattes at the local cafe.

To what end does any of this serve? George Washington had no clue as the hardships and complexities the first protohumans faced trying to survive in a world with a curfew of sunset full of animals that looked at you like prey and thinking that the reason it rained extra hard the other day is because one of the forest creatures smiled at you.

Comparing eras is ridiculous. Sure kids are softer today. They're also smarter and healthier and bigger and live longer and aren't allowed to own slaves. And they have Lattes. Imagine how much better Jefferson and Hamilton would've gotten along if they had lattes and message boards to get banned from.

To what end does this comparison serve? Why is it necessary. Just talk about how great george washington is, you don't need to crap all over the 'kids of today'.

LOL yes, comparing eras is ridiculous, isn't it? that's my whole point. And if we're gong to call out ignorance on the right then we might as well call out ignorance on the left too. I don't think that's too controversial of a take on a political thread on an internet forum.

Discussion of comparing generations of children always reminds me of this quote:

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

― Socrates (450 BC)