Author Topic: Taking down statues and monuments - righting wrongs or rewriting history?  (Read 6567 times)

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Offline mmmmm

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For Monkhouse -

Blue Marvel had a bit of a "revival" recently in 2015 or so in his OWN league and comic



The Ultimates.

Have seen some vague rumors of a Big Screen intro as well....and it wouldn't surprise me.

Marvel CU has given us Black Panther, Falcon, War Machine and even Valkrie (Thor)...

Blue Marvel would be a WELCOME addition to the MCU and he has Thor / Hulk / Captain Marvel level power.

I'd bet that Nick Fury could introduce him....that man (Samuel L Jackson) seems to know EVERYTHING....

DC? Well...as much as I love Cyborg I am looking forward to the day where DC debuts a FULL human Black Man (or Woman) on the Big screen.

Personally I'd love for ALL of the below



to one day make the Hollywood Big Screen for DC.

Hey, give some credit to DC for Black Lightning.   He's a character that broke a lot of doors down in comics starting way back in 1977 (I am pretty sure I have those first issues) and of course currently has his own very-well-regarded TV series (renewed for a 4th season next year)..

Okay - at this point, we should probably stop diverging the thread off topic.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Offline mmmmm

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Can you provide a link to an example of an actual civil-rights movement-associated effort calling for the removal of any such privately owned statue off of private land?   I'm sure such a thing anecdotally exists (because it's a big wide, varied world) but I could not find such.

Do you even know the history behind the Lenin statue?  It was literally reclaimed off a scrap yard and was saved mainly as a novelty with the hope to sell it.  It isn't set up for anyone to 'honor'.  If it's existence offends you, why don't you buy it and destroy it?  I can almost guarantee you not many would care if you did.   You could probably raise the money via GoFundme.   Good luck.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Offline kraidstar

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

It's a fair point to raise

Ok then. I've had as hard a life as anyone in this country I'd bet. Not going into details but I have faced extraordinary amounts of adversity.

But you know what? In the 1700s that theoretical kid IndeedProceed mentioned would have already lost half his brothers and sisters to disease at a young age and would likely have starved to death. It was a completely different universe then. Food, medicine, and guns didn't magically appear in stores, fabricated by machines from far-away places. There was no EBT card coming in the mailbox when times got tough. Volunteering for the military then wasn't a job - it was more likely suicide.

The pampered modern crowd has no idea when they bash on historical figures that life was terrible back then for everyone, rich or poor. Washington was bled go death by his own doctors. We owe a debt to those in the past who struggled against that sort of incredible hardship. THAT is what I mean by "brave." I don't think the modern crowd could hack that type of life. People can't even cope with a couple days without electricity, or an hour without their phone. Judging humans from the 1700s by modern sensibilities is ignorant and self-serving.

No one is doubting what Washington went through.

I believe the GIST of the issue here is that some over-wash the involvement of SLAVES.

I think that if "SOME" of us would START to see what the OTHER side is seeing then perhaps we can find SOME common ground.

I agree with everything you said. I think blacks need more recognition for their contributions to this nation. People would be a lot less touchy about this stuff if they felt they were getting a fair shake. Agree too on the comic book imagery analogy. It has taken far too long to get just a few prominent black characters, and even then the trolls come out and bash them as being part of some tyrannical PC conspiracy. Clearly some people feel threatened by positive/heroic images of black folk. I frequent some "nerd" sites so I've seen the criticism.

But it does bother me when I see a statue of Ulysses S Grant - a man who LITERALLY fought against slavery - getting torn down and then being lectured online (not saying by you, more talking about other sites) about how it is OK because of other stuff... I just don't think it's right judging a human being for things that are either out of their control or are just a product of their time.

And it seems like a lot of people are just spouting party lines, whether it be Tucker Carlson and his followers or the left-wing PC Twitter mob. That's why I said I don't think there is a lot of good-faith debate going on in this country now. The rhetoric is out of control lately, and that includes pretty much every political topic.

If anyone steps out of line, even if they are speaking truth (or at least think they are speaking truth) they are silenced/shouted down. I'm not even sure what people really feel about anything anymore because so much of it is regurgitated party line stuff. It's gotten much worse with Trump/COVID. It is a disturbing trend.

BTW there's an excellent chance we will at least get to see John Stewart finally as Green Lantern on HBO max. Looking forward to that.

Offline angryguy77

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.


 

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

It's a fair point to raise

Ok then. I've had as hard a life as anyone in this country I'd bet. Not going into details but I have faced extraordinary amounts of adversity.

But you know what? In the 1700s that theoretical kid IndeedProceed mentioned would have already lost half his brothers and sisters to disease at a young age and would likely have starved to death. It was a completely different universe then. Food, medicine, and guns didn't magically appear in stores, fabricated by machines from far-away places. There was no EBT card coming in the mailbox when times got tough. Volunteering for the military then wasn't a job - it was more likely suicide.

The pampered modern crowd has no idea when they bash on historical figures that life was terrible back then for everyone, rich or poor. Washington was bled go death by his own doctors. We owe a debt to those in the past who struggled against that sort of incredible hardship. THAT is what I mean by "brave." I don't think the modern crowd could hack that type of life. People can't even cope with a couple days without electricity, or an hour without their phone. Judging humans from the 1700s by modern sensibilities is ignorant and self-serving.

I find this to be true far too often. So many moderns, it seems to me, have an air of superiority in regard to those who came before, like people nowadays are smarter, more enlightened, more mature, and have all the answers. Chronological snobbery at its finest.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Can you provide a link to an example of an actual civil-rights movement-associated effort calling for the removal of any such privately owned statue off of private land?   I'm sure such a thing anecdotally exists (because it's a big wide, varied world) but I could not find such.

Do you even know the history behind the Lenin statue?  It was literally reclaimed off a scrap yard and was saved mainly as a novelty with the hope to sell it.  It isn't set up for anyone to 'honor'.  If it's existence offends you, why don't you buy it and destroy it?  I can almost guarantee you not many would care if you did.   You could probably raise the money via GoFundme.   Good luck.


The very same people who you claim are not aggressive to private property are the very same people throwing molotovs into store windows. I can't believe you're even trying to make this case to be honest. That isn't a civil rights movement, that is terrorism. Ripping down a statue of Fredrick Douglas, one that was paid for by freed slaves, and others of those who LITERALLY gave their life to free black people is not the mark of a civil rights movement.

Be honest, do you really think if the mob walked by a house with a statue of Lee or Columbus they would say "well that's on private property so we'll respect that." The very same people who would deface the Lincoln memorial wouldn't rip down a statue because of a no tresspassing sign? It doesn't matter what kind of property these things are on. They've said they will "burn it all down" until their demands are met.

I know the history of this statue. On one hand we have the calls to remove statues of patriots, on the other we have crickets over a statue of a man who murdered millions. You go ahead and justify this hypocrisy all you want.

Offline kraidstar

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For Monkhouse -

Blue Marvel had a bit of a "revival" recently in 2015 or so in his OWN league and comic



The Ultimates.

Have seen some vague rumors of a Big Screen intro as well....and it wouldn't surprise me.

Marvel CU has given us Black Panther, Falcon, War Machine and even Valkrie (Thor)...

Blue Marvel would be a WELCOME addition to the MCU and he has Thor / Hulk / Captain Marvel level power.

I'd bet that Nick Fury could introduce him....that man (Samuel L Jackson) seems to know EVERYTHING....

DC? Well...as much as I love Cyborg I am looking forward to the day where DC debuts a FULL human Black Man (or Woman) on the Big screen.

Personally I'd love for ALL of the below



to one day make the Hollywood Big Screen for DC.

The Rock is set to own as Black Adam in a year or two. There are rumors Superman himself might be on the receiving end of a beating. Johnson seems pretty confident, which is fitting for the character.

https://screenrant.com/black-adam-defeat-justice-league-dwayne-johnson-rock/

Adam is not black of course (he's an ancient Egyptian), but the Rock is. If they don't botch the story it should be great, he has depth, and it is always entertaining watching him deliver his particular brand of justice to his enemies. One of my favorite characters. Supposedly they are also introducing the Justice Society in the film, which should be sweet.

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

TP, and well said. I'm feeling a lot of the same things you are. I'm hearing a lot about the evils of the "rich old white men" who founded this country—like they were devils and not simply imperfect humans who nonetheless gave up much of their wealth and station to birth this country—and I sometimes get the sense—even though I'm not old (44), and I'm far from rich—that people want me to feel bad (ashamed?) because I'm a white American Christian male. Like that's somehow an inherently bad thing to be.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Offline mmmmm

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Can you provide a link to an example of an actual civil-rights movement-associated effort calling for the removal of any such privately owned statue off of private land?   I'm sure such a thing anecdotally exists (because it's a big wide, varied world) but I could not find such.

Do you even know the history behind the Lenin statue?  It was literally reclaimed off a scrap yard and was saved mainly as a novelty with the hope to sell it.  It isn't set up for anyone to 'honor'.  If it's existence offends you, why don't you buy it and destroy it?  I can almost guarantee you not many would care if you did.   You could probably raise the money via GoFundme.   Good luck.


The very same people who you claim are not aggressive to private property are the very same people throwing molotovs into store windows. I can't believe you're even trying to make this case to be honest. That isn't a civil rights movement, that is terrorism. Ripping down a statue of Fredrick Douglas, one that was paid for by freed slaves, and others of those who LITERALLY gave their life to free black people is not the mark of a civil rights movement.
You are moving goal posts.   This discussion was about removing statues because of political / cultural meanings.

Your are also making huge, sweeping false equivalences, equating a tiny percentage of looters & rioters with much larger, overwhelmingly peaceful political protest movements - and you make this equivalence even as you identify that no, such looters are not a political movement.

You are angryguy, I get it.  But your anger is scattershot all over the place.
Quote
Be honest, do you really think if the mob walked by a house with a statue of Lee or Columbus they would say "well that's on private property so we'll respect that." The very same people who would deface the Lincoln memorial wouldn't rip down a statue because of a no tresspassing sign? It doesn't matter what kind of property these things are on. They've said they will "burn it all down" until their demands are met.
Please provide an actual example of this ever happening.  Thx.
Quote
I know the history of this statue. On one hand we have the calls to remove statues of patriots, on the other we have crickets over a statue of a man who murdered millions. You go ahead and justify this hypocrisy all you want.

Ah yes.  This tired logical fallacy.   Because one didn't criticize bad thing X one is a hypocrite for criticizing bad thing Y.   

Sorry, bad thing Y is still a bad thing independent of whether one called out X as well.    One is not a hypocrite just because one doesn't call out every single equally-or-worse bad thing.   

The reality is that 99.99999% of folks around the country have probably never even _heard_ of the Lenin statue that apparently has triggered your anger so strongly.   They aren't hypocrites for not calling for it's immediate destruction.   They simply have other things on their minds.

Again:  Please start a GoFundMe to purchase and destroy the Lenin statue.  It is for sale.  Nothing is truly stopping you from securing it's destruction if you care about it that much.   I promise I will donate to it.
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Online GreenFaith1819

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

Angryguy -

To be frank I'm embarrassed for ANYONE who doesn't see any good in the 1619 Project....

This is my FIRST TIME even HEARING about it....

Let's be REAL, here - the "HISTORY" "I" was taught in High School in the 80s was CERTAINLY one sided.....I mean - we got the customary "Martin Luther King is AWESOME", speech, but beyond that?

Nothing.

I mean - I "PERSONALLY" learned MORE about "TRUE" history from my SHIPMATES (Black and WHITE) while I spent 20 years in the service....

My (Black) Church ALSO taught me about my place in this world....in America....a LOT more than High School taught me.

I "ALSO" served under more BLACK / ETHNIC / Caucasian Men AND Women while in the service....CERTAINLY more diverse than what I've seen out here in Civilian world.

"America" could take some SERIOUS notes on DIVERSITY from the SAME military that some on the RIGHT love to prop up and use politically........................................ ;)

Dear God does my comments above make me LESS American? Of course not. I DO love her.

And Angryguy - I've NEVER been more PROUD of this country when our OWN President Barack Obama gave an inspiring eulugy after the Charleston Church tragedy -



During that ENTIRE video do you see ANY hatred...ANY division....from this man?

He could've (maybe SHOULD HAVE?) been an Angry Black Man and called for rioting and such....but INSTEAD he gave an INSPIRING message of truth and hope....

One that our "current" iteration of the White House is incapable of.

So YES - Angryguy - I "HAVE" seen some inspirational messages from us leftists in this country...messages of hope and UNITY.

And YES - despite your POV America "WILL" survive...she is tougher and more determined than what we all see right now. I DO have faith in her.
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Offline mmmmm

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

TP, and well said. I'm feeling a lot of the same things you are. I'm hearing a lot about the evils of the "rich old white men" who founded this country—like they were devils and not simply imperfect humans who nonetheless gave up much of their wealth and station to birth this country—and I sometimes get the sense—even though I'm not old (44), and I'm far from rich—that people want me to feel bad (ashamed?) because I'm a white American Christian male. Like that's somehow an inherently bad thing to be.

Perspectives: 

For most of the last couple of hundred years, the popular perspectives that were shared and taught in schools were exclusively the perspectives promulgated by 'rich old white men'.

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically nearly wiped out by those rich old white men who took their land and resources from them (Aside:  The Supreme Court just handed a big chunk of it in Oklahoma BACK to them!).   

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically kidnapped and brought unwilling to this land as slaves by those rich old white men.

These people are finding a voice and sharing their perspectives.  It's perspective based on their reality and it's not going to be pretty because it wasn't pretty for the people who have been ground under the heels of 'rich white men' all this time.

You'll have to excuse folks if a lot of them don't have a lot of empathy for your feelings that poor helpless 'rich old white men' are being unfairly picked on.
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Offline KGs Knee

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

It's a fair point to raise

Ok then. I've had as hard a life as anyone in this country I'd bet. Not going into details but I have faced extraordinary amounts of adversity.

But you know what? In the 1700s that theoretical kid IndeedProceed mentioned would have already lost half his brothers and sisters to disease at a young age and would likely have starved to death. It was a completely different universe then. Food, medicine, and guns didn't magically appear in stores, fabricated by machines from far-away places. There was no EBT card coming in the mailbox when times got tough. Volunteering for the military then wasn't a job - it was more likely suicide.

The pampered modern crowd has no idea when they bash on historical figures that life was terrible back then for everyone, rich or poor. Washington was bled go death by his own doctors. We owe a debt to those in the past who struggled against that sort of incredible hardship. THAT is what I mean by "brave." I don't think the modern crowd could hack that type of life. People can't even cope with a couple days without electricity, or an hour without their phone. Judging humans from the 1700s by modern sensibilities is ignorant and self-serving.



I wasn't making any particular commentary on George Washington, and definitely am not trying to judge his actions by today's 'standards'.  I acknowledge all the good things he did.  Yes, he also did some bad things, but in totality, I'd say he was far more 'good' than 'bad'.

I was simply acknowledging the point raised was fair, plenty of people do heroic things. 

But also, my question is, do we really think George Washington is the only human that would have done what he did given the same choices?  I personally doubt it, and suspect many others would have if they were in his position.

Beyond all of that, though, I just don't like making statues of people.  It's idol worship, and I'm not in the business of worshiping other humans.  And our money is definitely better off spent elsewhwere.

Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Can you provide a link to an example of an actual civil-rights movement-associated effort calling for the removal of any such privately owned statue off of private land?   I'm sure such a thing anecdotally exists (because it's a big wide, varied world) but I could not find such.

Do you even know the history behind the Lenin statue?  It was literally reclaimed off a scrap yard and was saved mainly as a novelty with the hope to sell it.  It isn't set up for anyone to 'honor'.  If it's existence offends you, why don't you buy it and destroy it?  I can almost guarantee you not many would care if you did.   You could probably raise the money via GoFundme.   Good luck.


The very same people who you claim are not aggressive to private property are the very same people throwing molotovs into store windows. I can't believe you're even trying to make this case to be honest. That isn't a civil rights movement, that is terrorism. Ripping down a statue of Fredrick Douglas, one that was paid for by freed slaves, and others of those who LITERALLY gave their life to free black people is not the mark of a civil rights movement.
You are moving goal posts.   This discussion was about removing statues because of political / cultural meanings.

Your are also making huge, sweeping false equivalences, equating a tiny percentage of looters & rioters with much larger, overwhelmingly peaceful political protest movements - and you make this equivalence even as you identify that no, such looters are not a political movement.

You are angryguy, I get it.  But your anger is scattershot all over the place.
Quote
Be honest, do you really think if the mob walked by a house with a statue of Lee or Columbus they would say "well that's on private property so we'll respect that." The very same people who would deface the Lincoln memorial wouldn't rip down a statue because of a no tresspassing sign? It doesn't matter what kind of property these things are on. They've said they will "burn it all down" until their demands are met.
Please provide an actual example of this ever happening.  Thx.
Quote
I know the history of this statue. On one hand we have the calls to remove statues of patriots, on the other we have crickets over a statue of a man who murdered millions. You go ahead and justify this hypocrisy all you want.

Ah yes.  This tired logical fallacy.   Because one didn't criticize bad thing X one is a hypocrite for criticizing bad thing Y.   

Sorry, bad thing Y is still a bad thing independent of whether one called out X as well.    One is not a hypocrite just because one doesn't call out every single equally-or-worse bad thing.   

The reality is that 99.99999% of folks around the country have probably never even _heard_ of the Lenin statue that apparently has triggered your anger so strongly.   They aren't hypocrites for not calling for it's immediate destruction.   They simply have other things on their minds.

Again:  Please start a GoFundMe to purchase and destroy the Lenin statue.  It is for sale.  Nothing is truly stopping you from securing it's destruction if you care about it that much.   I promise I will donate to it.

No I’m not moving goalposts at all. You seem to think because civil rights movements don’t destroy status on private property, that somehow means not calling for the removal of a statue of lenin, that is visible to the public, is not hypocritical. It’s promoted by the city’s website. Can I ask you if the feds ask property owners if they can put a statue on their property, or do they usually put it on gov owned land? Your whole excuse for this is based on something that isn’t grounded in reality. The issue yet again is these people tearing down statues are not engaging in a movement, it is mob rule at best, terrorism at the worst.


https://www.newsweek.com/blm-leader-well-burn-system-down-if-us-wont-give-us-what-we-want-1513422
 
In addition to this call for violence, we also had a BLM leader call for the removal of pictures of Jesus on private property that are white. Now we have their actual words and demands, but I’m way off base for pointing out the Lenin statue. I’m sure they will stop at the property line.

“The presence of this sculpture has evoked a wide range of responses. If art is supposed to make us feel, not just feel good, then this sculpture is a successful work of art. The challenge is to understand that this piece means different things to different people and to learn to listen to each other and respect different opinions. From an artists standpoint, all points of view are valid and important.”  It’s sad those on the left seemingly only feel this way about their approved art.

You keep thinking it makes me angry, and no it doesn’t. I don’t believe we should engage in tactics that are a go-to in Marxist revolutions. In fact, I agree with the statement from the statue’s website:

 I’m just pointing out as I said a blatant hypocrisy.  It’s not about your “Y” and “X” logic, it’s about being consistent. They are engaging in a purge of “evil” representation in our country. If you are going to purge and say you have the moral authority to do it, then you do not get to pick and choose. This is an all or nothing game they are playing, or so they want you think.

To give you more evidence that this isn’t about race bur replacing our culture, there are statues of Robert Byrd, LBJ, Margret Sanger left unmolested. I’m not aware of any actual calls for their removal by leaders of BLM and others.  President Franklin Pierce of NH, President James Buchanan of PA and presidential candidate Stephen Douglas, all defenders of slavery, are surprisingly left alone.

You also are really trying hard to make me say every single person who has marched is committing these acts of anarchy. I have not said that nor will I. Many have though and that is undeniable.

Offline KGs Knee

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Can you provide a link to an example of an actual civil-rights movement-associated effort calling for the removal of any such privately owned statue off of private land?   I'm sure such a thing anecdotally exists (because it's a big wide, varied world) but I could not find such.

Do you even know the history behind the Lenin statue?  It was literally reclaimed off a scrap yard and was saved mainly as a novelty with the hope to sell it.  It isn't set up for anyone to 'honor'.  If it's existence offends you, why don't you buy it and destroy it?  I can almost guarantee you not many would care if you did.   You could probably raise the money via GoFundme.   Good luck.


The very same people who you claim are not aggressive to private property are the very same people throwing molotovs into store windows. I can't believe you're even trying to make this case to be honest. That isn't a civil rights movement, that is terrorism. Ripping down a statue of Fredrick Douglas, one that was paid for by freed slaves, and others of those who LITERALLY gave their life to free black people is not the mark of a civil rights movement.
You are moving goal posts.   This discussion was about removing statues because of political / cultural meanings.

Your are also making huge, sweeping false equivalences, equating a tiny percentage of looters & rioters with much larger, overwhelmingly peaceful political protest movements - and you make this equivalence even as you identify that no, such looters are not a political movement.

You are angryguy, I get it.  But your anger is scattershot all over the place.
Quote
Be honest, do you really think if the mob walked by a house with a statue of Lee or Columbus they would say "well that's on private property so we'll respect that." The very same people who would deface the Lincoln memorial wouldn't rip down a statue because of a no tresspassing sign? It doesn't matter what kind of property these things are on. They've said they will "burn it all down" until their demands are met.
Please provide an actual example of this ever happening.  Thx.
Quote
I know the history of this statue. On one hand we have the calls to remove statues of patriots, on the other we have crickets over a statue of a man who murdered millions. You go ahead and justify this hypocrisy all you want.

Ah yes.  This tired logical fallacy.   Because one didn't criticize bad thing X one is a hypocrite for criticizing bad thing Y.   

Sorry, bad thing Y is still a bad thing independent of whether one called out X as well.    One is not a hypocrite just because one doesn't call out every single equally-or-worse bad thing.   

The reality is that 99.99999% of folks around the country have probably never even _heard_ of the Lenin statue that apparently has triggered your anger so strongly.   They aren't hypocrites for not calling for it's immediate destruction.   They simply have other things on their minds.

Again:  Please start a GoFundMe to purchase and destroy the Lenin statue.  It is for sale.  Nothing is truly stopping you from securing it's destruction if you care about it that much.   I promise I will donate to it.

No I’m not moving goalposts at all. You seem to think because civil rights movements don’t destroy status on private property, that somehow means not calling for the removal of a statue of lenin, that is visible to the public, is not hypocritical. It’s promoted by the city’s website. Can I ask you if the feds ask property owners if they can put a statue on their property, or do they usually put it on gov owned land? Your whole excuse for this is based on something that isn’t grounded in reality. The issue yet again is these people tearing down statues are not engaging in a movement, it is mob rule at best, terrorism at the worst.


https://www.newsweek.com/blm-leader-well-burn-system-down-if-us-wont-give-us-what-we-want-1513422
 
In addition to this call for violence, we also had a BLM leader call for the removal of pictures of Jesus on private property that are white. Now we have their actual words and demands, but I’m way off base for pointing out the Lenin statue. I’m sure they will stop at the property line.

“The presence of this sculpture has evoked a wide range of responses. If art is supposed to make us feel, not just feel good, then this sculpture is a successful work of art. The challenge is to understand that this piece means different things to different people and to learn to listen to each other and respect different opinions. From an artists standpoint, all points of view are valid and important.”  It’s sad those on the left seemingly only feel this way about their approved art.

You keep thinking it makes me angry, and no it doesn’t. I don’t believe we should engage in tactics that are a go-to in Marxist revolutions. In fact, I agree with the statement from the statue’s website:

 I’m just pointing out as I said a blatant hypocrisy.  It’s not about your “Y” and “X” logic, it’s about being consistent. They are engaging in a purge of “evil” representation in our country. If you are going to purge and say you have the moral authority to do it, then you do not get to pick and choose. This is an all or nothing game they are playing, or so they want you think.

To give you more evidence that this isn’t about race bur replacing our culture, there are statues of Robert Byrd, LBJ, Margret Sanger left unmolested. I’m not aware of any actual calls for their removal by leaders of BLM and others.  President Franklin Pierce of NH, President James Buchanan of PA and presidential candidate Stephen Douglas, all defenders of slavery, are surprisingly left alone.

You also are really trying hard to make me say every single person who has marched is committing these acts of anarchy. I have not said that nor will I. Many have though and that is undeniable.


FWIW, there has been a significant recent movement here in NH to remove Franklin Pierce's name from schools and to take down any statues of him.

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  • Bailey Howell
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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.

Maybe when the left starts focusing on the good this country has done in the past and present rather than using the sins of the past as a weapon to increase their political power. The left should stop pushing things like Project 1619 into our schools while they are at it. When that happens, then people like Tucker won't use those terms. If you had a wife that did nothing but complain about things you did in the past and kept saying you need to change, wouldn't you start to question if she really loves you. You might wonder that maybe she loves the idea of what she thinks you should be. I view modern liberalism like this wife.

I'm not going to say you hate the US or every single liberal for that matter. However the left as a whole has been doing nothing but telling us how rotten the US is due to its past. This has been going on for as long as I've been alive. It's getting worse though.
America is either racist, homophobic, misogynist, greedy, or all of the above according to the left.
When was the last time you've heard a democrat politician actually give an entire speech that praises the country without a "but?" When was the last time they really talked about how our free market system provides the most opportunity for the common man the world has ever seen? Think about it. I mean in all seriousness, when was the last time you actually heard a democrat give a speech that made you swell with pride for the US. You don't hear many positive things said about this country from liberals these days(again, I don't mean 100% of liberals). Instead, we are told:

America was founded on evil and only evil.
All our heros are villains.
America needs to change its economic system into a more socialist model.
America is illegitimate because Indians were here first.
America needs to pay reparations to blacks for crimes no one living today has committed.

Kaepernick just told us there is nothing worth celebrating on the 4th of July. Yet he is still a hero to the left. A good start for the left would be denouncing that type of person. I'm not calling for him to be canceled by any means, but he shouldn't be looked to as some sort of leader.

I would encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=68CQu-TKd8w&feature=emb_logo

I fully believe that this nation cannot survive much longer if the people are being programmed to hate it. What I've seen over the last few months is not love, but hate. Hate for this country and all that it was founded on. This isn't to say we forget about the imperfect things of our past. We shouldn't, but I do believe we can honor those that came before for the good they've done. Right now, it doesn't seem that's an option.

TP, and well said. I'm feeling a lot of the same things you are. I'm hearing a lot about the evils of the "rich old white men" who founded this country—like they were devils and not simply imperfect humans who nonetheless gave up much of their wealth and station to birth this country—and I sometimes get the sense—even though I'm not old (44), and I'm far from rich—that people want me to feel bad (ashamed?) because I'm a white American Christian male. Like that's somehow an inherently bad thing to be.

Perspectives: 

For most of the last couple of hundred years, the popular perspectives that were shared and taught in schools were exclusively the perspectives promulgated by 'rich old white men'.

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically nearly wiped out by those rich old white men who took their land and resources from them (Aside:  The Supreme Court just handed a big chunk of it in Oklahoma BACK to them!).   

For most of the last couple of hundred years one never got to hear the perspective of people who were systematically kidnapped and brought unwilling to this land as slaves by those rich old white men.

These people are finding a voice and sharing their perspectives.  It's perspective based on their reality and it's not going to be pretty because it wasn't pretty for the people who have been ground under the heels of 'rich white men' all this time.

You'll have to excuse folks if a lot of them don't have a lot of empathy for your feelings that poor helpless 'rich old white men' are being unfairly picked on.

For most of the last couple of hundred years? For roughly how much of that time have these suppressed perspectives been shared?