Author Topic: Taking down statues and monuments - righting wrongs or rewriting history?  (Read 6564 times)

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Offline keevsnick

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Offline Monkhouse

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"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Online GreenFaith1819

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Just so folks know....my man Augustus Freeman IV is ALSO a controversial figure, in the Comics...



His issues ran only up to 42, in the 90s.....supposedly, THIS man



Our Supreme Court Justice Thomas is / was fond of him - for his supposed VERY conservative beliefs in the Comics.

This - in turn - caused the late Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) to supposedly get WRITERS block since he - being a liberal - did not know at the time how to take Justice Thomas' fixation on Icon.....

Icon DID - in fact - move a bit to the center - due to his close friend Rocket



She was the one who first persuaded him to even become a Superhero, due to him hiding his powers...

Still - if you research him on Youtube you will find that even HE is canceled by some....because he DID NOT STOP SLAVERY...being that he arrived on Earth in 1839.....and had Superman-like powers...

Here is a pretty good reason for this

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-wouldn-t-an-immortal-black-superhero-have-just-ende-1785892460

Nonetheless - Augustus Freeman IV is STILL viewed as a Sellout because of this, at least to a few.

For ME? He is a worthy topic for a movie one day.

Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.

Offline Monkhouse

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Just so folks know....my man Augustus Freeman IV is ALSO a controversial figure, in the Comics...



His issues ran only up to 42, in the 90s.....supposedly, THIS man



Our Supreme Court Justice Thomas is / was fond of him - for his supposed VERY conservative beliefs in the Comics.

This - in turn - caused the late Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) to supposedly get WRITERS block since he - being a liberal - did not know at the time how to take Justice Thomas' fixation on Icon.....

Icon DID - in fact - move a bit to the center - due to his close friend Rocket



She was the one who first persuaded him to even become a Superhero, due to him hiding his powers...

Still - if you research him on Youtube you will find that even HE is canceled by some....because he DID NOT STOP SLAVERY...being that he arrived on Earth in 1839.....and had Superman-like powers...

Here is a pretty good reason for this

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-wouldn-t-an-immortal-black-superhero-have-just-ende-1785892460

Nonetheless - Augustus Freeman IV is STILL viewed as a Sellout because of this, at least to a few.

For ME? He is a worthy topic for a movie one day.

One of my favorite superheroes along with Rocket, their backstory and background endeared me. Growing up, I experienced a lot of friends who overdosed on drugs, so I could relate to Rocket.



This is my guy though. Blue Marvel was unstoppable, tearing the God of War in half with his bare hands. Knocking out Hulk with one punch to the face, and almost beating the Sentry.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Online GreenFaith1819

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Just so folks know....my man Augustus Freeman IV is ALSO a controversial figure, in the Comics...



His issues ran only up to 42, in the 90s.....supposedly, THIS man



Our Supreme Court Justice Thomas is / was fond of him - for his supposed VERY conservative beliefs in the Comics.

This - in turn - caused the late Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) to supposedly get WRITERS block since he - being a liberal - did not know at the time how to take Justice Thomas' fixation on Icon.....

Icon DID - in fact - move a bit to the center - due to his close friend Rocket



She was the one who first persuaded him to even become a Superhero, due to him hiding his powers...

Still - if you research him on Youtube you will find that even HE is canceled by some....because he DID NOT STOP SLAVERY...being that he arrived on Earth in 1839.....and had Superman-like powers...

Here is a pretty good reason for this

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-wouldn-t-an-immortal-black-superhero-have-just-ende-1785892460

Nonetheless - Augustus Freeman IV is STILL viewed as a Sellout because of this, at least to a few.

For ME? He is a worthy topic for a movie one day.

One of my favorite superheroes along with Rocket, their backstory and background endeared me. Growing up, I experienced a lot of friends who overdosed on drugs, so I could relate to Rocket.



This is my guy though. Blue Marvel was unstoppable, tearing the God of War in half with his bare hands. Knocking out Hulk with one punch to the face, and almost beating the Sentry.

Love Blue Marvel, as well...

Even HE has a complicated backstory, in the Comics...

Supposedly part of his backstory involves John F. Kennedy asking him to LEAVE EARTH and hide on the Moon - due to him being afraid of how the World (And America, then) would take a Super-powered Black Man......

Rocket - additionally - was I think the FIRST Superheroine in the Comics ever to be a TEENAGE Mother...

Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.

Offline mmmmm

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Just so folks know....my man Augustus Freeman IV is ALSO a controversial figure, in the Comics...



His issues ran only up to 42, in the 90s.....supposedly, THIS man



Our Supreme Court Justice Thomas is / was fond of him - for his supposed VERY conservative beliefs in the Comics.

This - in turn - caused the late Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) to supposedly get WRITERS block since he - being a liberal - did not know at the time how to take Justice Thomas' fixation on Icon.....

Icon DID - in fact - move a bit to the center - due to his close friend Rocket



She was the one who first persuaded him to even become a Superhero, due to him hiding his powers...

Still - if you research him on Youtube you will find that even HE is canceled by some....because he DID NOT STOP SLAVERY...being that he arrived on Earth in 1839.....and had Superman-like powers...

Here is a pretty good reason for this

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-wouldn-t-an-immortal-black-superhero-have-just-ende-1785892460

Nonetheless - Augustus Freeman IV is STILL viewed as a Sellout because of this, at least to a few.

For ME? He is a worthy topic for a movie one day.

McDuffie was brilliant at creating diverse characters with realistically different viewpoints and personalities.   Augustus being contrary to expectation was a brilliant move and setup really to be foil against Rocket, who I feel is the real 'main character' of the entire story arc.

So sad that McDuffie left us too soon.  So many brilliant stories came out of that head.  Static Shock.  JL Unlimited.  Great stuff.

I'd be down with a statue for that guy.
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Offline KGs Knee

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

It's a fair point to raise

Online gouki88

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Got no issue with seeing monsters like Leopold go down. When you're responsible for 10 million deaths, and for the essential creation of the term 'crime against humanity', you don't deserve any sort of commemoration. He deserves to be remembered in a similar vein to Hitler, Bagosora, Pot and the like.

However, there's simply never been anyone like that in American history. Certainly, some Confederate monuments deserve to be taken down. As Roy said, public Confederate statues seems insulting at best, and supportive of Confederate ideals at worst. I'm not sure if there is any way to go about this. As far as I've seen there's rarely any progress made with pursuing the usual channels to try and get results for issues like this. On the other hand, we've seen mobs tear down statues of Jefferson, Washington, Ulysses Grant and bloody Hans Christian Heg. These actions are obviously unjust.

It's hard to find a middle ground. Society is very very angry right now

What are the thoughts in Australia about the celebration of Australia Day and Captain Cook's discovery of the continent? I read somewhere that there's a proposal to change it to Invasion Day?
Captain Cook is often wrongfully blamed for all the injustice that occurred in Australia towards our indigenous peoples, but on the flip side, January 26 should not be Australia Day.

Captain Cook was a great cartographer, but in terms of the actual foundation of Australia he didnít really do too much. It would be like if Americans celebrated Columbus Day as the one and only celebration of the foundation of America. Men like Governor Phillip were good to our indigenous people, especially by the standards of his time, but essentially as soon as he left we turned on them. There is no doubt that Australia Day represents a really bad time for our indigenous people.

Thatís why it should be moved to January 1st. Thatís the day Australia federated, so naturally it should be the day Australians celebrate Australia, right? I feel like thereís two problems with this sadly. Firstly, many Australians celebrate the new year with some gusto, so itís not really a priority to celebrate our federation. Secondly, thereís a very powerful conservative element in Australia. Thatís why notions like renaming it ďInvasion DayĒ (which is stupid in its own right) will not get up in the foreseeable future. At least on a federal level.

Ultimately I do think Australia Day should be changed. But not to Invasion Day, not to May 8 Day (as in Mate Day, ugh), and not to anything besides January 1st.

Online GreenFaith1819

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For Monkhouse -

Blue Marvel had a bit of a "revival" recently in 2015 or so in his OWN league and comic



The Ultimates.

Have seen some vague rumors of a Big Screen intro as well....and it wouldn't surprise me.

Marvel CU has given us Black Panther, Falcon, War Machine and even Valkrie (Thor)...

Blue Marvel would be a WELCOME addition to the MCU and he has Thor / Hulk / Captain Marvel level power.

I'd bet that Nick Fury could introduce him....that man (Samuel L Jackson) seems to know EVERYTHING....

DC? Well...as much as I love Cyborg I am looking forward to the day where DC debuts a FULL human Black Man (or Woman) on the Big screen.

Personally I'd love for ALL of the below



to one day make the Hollywood Big Screen for DC.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 08:54:36 AM by GreenFaith1819 »
Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.

Offline angryguy77

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

well has that 12 year old witness a quarter of his friends die of hunger and cold? Did that 12 year old get offered the title of king but refuse because it wasn't good for he country?

I can't believe you're being serious. I'm at a loss for words.


So founding a country is now on the level of being a child who is fatherless taking care of siblings. Risking your very life if you fail to birth a nation is no big deal because dude decided to take the opportunity.....................Wow, just wow.

Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.

Oh, so these people ripping things down respect private property? Lol. Right, these mobs have totally shown respect for not destroying property.

Offline kraidstar

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

It's a fair point to raise

Ok then. I've had as hard a life as anyone in this country I'd bet. Not going into details but I have faced extraordinary amounts of adversity.

But you know what? In the 1700s that theoretical kid IndeedProceed mentioned would have already lost half his brothers and sisters to disease at a young age and would likely have starved to death. It was a completely different universe then. Food, medicine, and guns didn't magically appear in stores, fabricated by machines from far-away places. There was no EBT card coming in the mailbox when times got tough. Volunteering for the military then wasn't a job - it was more likely suicide.

The pampered modern crowd has no idea when they bash on historical figures that life was terrible back then for everyone, rich or poor. Washington was bled go death by his own doctors. We owe a debt to those in the past who struggled against that sort of incredible hardship. THAT is what I mean by "brave." I don't think the modern crowd could hack that type of life. People can't even cope with a couple days without electricity, or an hour without their phone. Judging humans from the 1700s by modern sensibilities is ignorant and self-serving.


Online GreenFaith1819

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

It's a fair point to raise

Ok then. I've had as hard a life as anyone in this country I'd bet. Not going into details but I have faced extraordinary amounts of adversity.

But you know what? In the 1700s that theoretical kid IndeedProceed mentioned would have already lost half his brothers and sisters to disease at a young age and would likely have starved to death. It was a completely different universe then. Food, medicine, and guns didn't magically appear in stores, fabricated by machines from far-away places. There was no EBT card coming in the mailbox when times got tough. Volunteering for the military then wasn't a job - it was more likely suicide.

The pampered modern crowd has no idea when they bash on historical figures that life was terrible back then for everyone, rich or poor. Washington was bled go death by his own doctors. We owe a debt to those in the past who struggled against that sort of incredible hardship. THAT is what I mean by "brave." I don't think the modern crowd could hack that type of life. People can't even cope with a couple days without electricity, or an hour without their phone. Judging humans from the 1700s by modern sensibilities is ignorant and self-serving.

No one is doubting what Washington went through.

I believe the GIST of the issue here is that some over-wash the involvement of SLAVES.

I think that if "SOME" of us would START to see what the OTHER side is seeing then perhaps we can find SOME common ground.
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Good Trouble.

Online GreenFaith1819

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For Angryguy -

When is Tucker Carlson going to stop calling those on The Left "America Haters?"

Why do SOME - even HERE on the Blog - subscribe to watching him? While the LAST question is a bit irrelevant I "DO" want to know a good answer to the First Question I posed.....

I'm on The Left.
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Good Trouble.

Online GreenFaith1819

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Another question for Angryguy -

Do you think "I" hate America?

We don't know each other personally....but you've seen me post here on the blog over the years.

Do I seem like....post like - an America Hater?

This is the kind of stuff I cannot reconcile with Tucker Carlson.....but yet he has a following.
Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.