Author Topic: Taking down statues and monuments - righting wrongs or rewriting history?  (Read 6566 times)

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Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

Offline Vermont Green

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Another thought after reading some more.

Carlson made some reasonable points, many I did not agree with but fair points.  But as usual, he took it too far by concluding that this all means Tammy Duckworth hates America.  This final conclusion is useful to agitate a disenfranchised base but is not truth.  This idea that we love America because we are Republican and you hate America because you are liberal is exactly what turned me off to the Republican party years ago.

Now the other side can make the same mistake by saying Carlson is a racist because he doesn't believe we should take down a statue of Robert E. Lee.  You can clearly say that Carlson is divisive for saying Duckworth hates America, that is clearly true, but as soon as you throw on the "he's racist" card, you are no better than the liberals hate America constituency (at least that is going to be the perception).

I guess the big difference is that Carlson might be racist (who am I to judge) but not simply because he wants to keep Confederate statues.  When you throw that out there though, it is hard to back up.  Everyone has a different idea. But there is no reality you can construct where Duckworth hates America just because she has different politics.

Online GreenFaith1819

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"
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Online GreenFaith1819

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Question....Why can't we erect statues of LIVING Heroes and Heroines?

I can rattle off a few...

Colin Powell.....Norman Shwarskopf......

Why do folks have to DIE to get statues made of them?

We keep harping on history from several hundred years ago...I get that....but isn't CURRENT history important as well?
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Offline Donoghus

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Question....Why can't we erect statues of LIVING Heroes and Heroines?

I can rattle off a few...

Colin Powell.....Norman Shwarskopf......

Why do folks have to DIE to get statues made of them?

We keep harping on history from several hundred years ago...I get that....but isn't CURRENT history important as well?

I think we'd be better off just not making statues.    Those people who are living now might have stuff come out years down the road. 

We see, live, & breathe current history. Its around us.  Hopefully people are teaching & learning it.   We don't need statues.


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Offline kraidstar

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world. He and the other founders started a process which eventually toppled the monarchical system. Without Washington there is no democracy. Period.

That's a lot different from the achievements of a Robert E Lee or a Jefferson Davis.

It's too bad we need to debate the obvious merits (or lack thereof) of either crowd.

A lot of folks are not arguing in good faith.

Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.



Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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So, basically, we shouldn't have statues or memorials of anyone—nor should we name stadiums and other buildings for anyone—because if you dig deep enough, you're going to find something objectionable about every single human being who ever lived, except Jesus.

So do we take Washington and others off our currency because they owned slaves? Do we forget about all of the positive contributions and personal sacrifices made by all of those derisively labelled "rich old white men" who, you know, only founded this country?

I sure hope no one ever digs too deep into my history.

By the way, I'm waiting for someone, anyone—okay, I'll be the one—to bring up good ol' Charlie Darwin and his racist evolutionary ideas about blacks (and browns and every other nonwhite color) being inferior to white Europeans. Can we please cancel him and his ridiculous ideas from our culture?
Darwin was discussed earlier.

I am with Roy on a lot of this. I think statues of the founders should be left alone. Monuments to the Confederates, in my opinion, should be taken down from government property. I have two main issues with these: 1) they were traitors to the country and 2) many (most?) of these monuments were erected 30+ years after the Civil War when Jim Crow laws were being enacted. These monuments were put up with malicious intent and not for historical reasons.

My bad. I missed that.
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Online GreenFaith1819

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Honest Questions.....I think:

When did The Right start becoming "True Americans"........?

Why wasn't there widespread rioting when Michael Brown was killed.....Trayvon Martin....etc, etc? There WERE a lot of angry folks (me included).....but I don't think ANYWHERE NEAR what we have NOW.....

Why didn't folks tear down statues when THOSE TWO above were killed?

How come Presidents no longer TALK about Race Relations? To the Country? I know President Clinton DID....in the 90s - to try to calm the storm of the Rodney King Riots...and the OJ Verdict.

I know President Obama tried....did he try hard enough?

Now - as for Pres. Obama - Try picturing The Most Powerful (Obama) Man in the World trying to lecture the the World on Racism.....I imagine this would've scared a LOT of folks......maybe viewed him as an Angry Black Man..............?

Why did Kanye West try to label George Bush as a Racist? Didn't understand it THEN and STILL do not now....

Is Kanye STILL trying to run for President? He's a gifted man...........

With ALL these questions I remember a more SANER time many years ago......not NOW, though.

What we have NOW is a President that is DUG in.....has shown LITTLE concrete remorse for the George Floyd tragedy......has done LITTLE to calm the country........
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Offline mmmmm

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So, basically, we shouldn't have statues or memorials of anyone—nor should we name stadiums and other buildings for anyone—because if you dig deep enough, you're going to find something objectionable about every single human being who ever lived, except Jesus.
This is a straw man.  Nobody on this thread is arguing for perfection in those we honor.   And while I'm sure you can find a handful of people (out of millions and millions) who are, they aren't representative of what is really going on here.
Quote
By the way, I'm waiting for someone, anyone—okay, I'll be the one—to bring up good ol' Charlie Darwin and his racist evolutionary ideas about blacks (and browns and every other nonwhite color) being inferior to white Europeans. Can we please cancel him and his ridiculous ideas from our culture?

Darwin was discussed.  No need to 'honor' him as any particular saint of a human.  But no need to erase his actual, factual contributions to science, either.
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Offline indeedproceed

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Washington was braver than 99.99% of humans will ever be. He left a cushy life to suicidally challenge the most powerful empire in the world.

Is he braver than a 12 year old kid who has been the man of the house for years because one parent works all the time and for one reason or another the other one isn't around, so they've gotta be mommy and daddy to their younger brothers and sisters because nobody else is looking out for them?

I dont mean to sidetrack the whole thread but something about that comment really irked me. He's more brave because he had to ability to choose to do something heroic? There's lots of people who don't have that choice and still gotta do unthinkable things daily, are those people also in the 'really brave 0.001%'? Cuz there are a lot of them.

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Offline mmmmm

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it.

Discuss.  Talk about it.  That's not the same as tearing something down.
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Offline mmmmm

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

Strawman? I just gave a quote from a representative saying we should discuss it. We have people tearing down statues of abolitionists. You honestly think they will stop there? You underestimate the motives.

You know......"MAYBE" if this country had MORE African American or other HEROES or HEROINES as statues then perhaps it wouldn't even be at the point it is, now.

But Noooooo......I can hear the arguments, now...

"But it will cost TOO MUCH to erect a statue of Harriet Tubman........"

I'm perfectly fine having more, but that is not what is being asked for by the mobs taking the status down.

What is very alarming to me is the same people demanding we tear down the statues I've mentioned, have not said a word about the statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not only have they failed to call for its removal, it remains untouched.

What that tells me is, the leadership behind the mobs find our founders more of an eyesore and evil than a man that killed millions.

That statue of Lenin in Seattle is privately owned and sitting on private property.  So it really is apples vs oranges compared to statues sitting on public property.

It has also been 'on sale' for decades waiting for a buyer (and so far getting no takers) so it serves more a target for mockery than anything else.
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Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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So, basically, we shouldn't have statues or memorials of anyone—nor should we name stadiums and other buildings for anyone—because if you dig deep enough, you're going to find something objectionable about every single human being who ever lived, except Jesus.
This is a straw man.  Nobody on this thread is arguing for perfection in those we honor.   And while I'm sure you can find a handful of people (out of millions and millions) who are, they aren't representative of what is really going on here.
Quote
By the way, I'm waiting for someone, anyone—okay, I'll be the one—to bring up good ol' Charlie Darwin and his racist evolutionary ideas about blacks (and browns and every other nonwhite color) being inferior to white Europeans. Can we please cancel him and his ridiculous ideas from our culture?

Darwin was discussed.  No need to 'honor' him as any particular saint of a human.  But no need to erase his actual, factual contributions to science, either.

He popularized perhaps the most racist theory in the history of humankind. I'd also argue that there isn't a whole lot that's factual about it, but that's probably for another thread.
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Offline Monkhouse

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One of my favorite comedians said it best:

"Keeping the Confederate statues is stupid... I mean, why would you want a statute commemorating a war that you lost?"

I'm 100% behind taking down statues from the Confederacy.
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