Author Topic: Taking down statues and monuments - righting wrongs or rewriting history?  (Read 6563 times)

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Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

She said:
Quote
She added that the United States needs to "listen to everybody" when it comes to deciding the fate of statues honoring historical figures such as President George Washington


There is no dialogue that needs to take place over taking down statues of our founders. None, zero, zip. This isn't about taking down slave owners, it's about erasing American history and pretending there was no good that came from its founding.

They will come for "problematic" books next. I wonder when people will wake up and realize they're cheering on fascist tactics.

However, how about we let Tucker explain:

https://youtu.be/KmflC8Yc1ls

Offline GreenFaith1819

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........
Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.

Offline GreenFaith1819

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

She said:
Quote
She added that the United States needs to "listen to everybody" when it comes to deciding the fate of statues honoring historical figures such as President George Washington


There is no dialogue that needs to take place over taking down statues of our founders. None, zero, zip. This isn't about taking down slave owners, it's about erasing American history and pretending there was no good that came from its founding.

They will come for "problematic" books next. I wonder when people will wake up and realize they're cheering on fascist tactics.

However, how about we let Tucker explain:

https://youtu.be/KmflC8Yc1ls

But you are IGNORING the fact that some...."MANY" of these "Heroes" owned slaves.

How come "SOME" folks just gloss this over?
Augustus Freeman IV - the Superman of the South. Read Milestone Comics.

Good Trouble.

Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

She said:
Quote
She added that the United States needs to "listen to everybody" when it comes to deciding the fate of statues honoring historical figures such as President George Washington


There is no dialogue that needs to take place over taking down statues of our founders. None, zero, zip. This isn't about taking down slave owners, it's about erasing American history and pretending there was no good that came from its founding.

They will come for "problematic" books next. I wonder when people will wake up and realize they're cheering on fascist tactics.

However, how about we let Tucker explain:

https://youtu.be/KmflC8Yc1ls

But you are IGNORING the fact that some...."MANY" of these "Heroes" owned slaves.

How come "SOME" folks just gloss this over?


Yes some did own slaves. Now tell me, if the start of being pure is not owning slaves, then what country and who in history is worthy of having a statue? If not owning slaves is the floor of where good morality starts, then really nothing in history is worth memorializing given every single race, and continent has engaged in the horrible act.

Do you know where the word "slave" comes from? It was born out of the Slavic people in Europe being made slaves. Yes, the very term comes from white people being taken against their will. It was estimated that 1.5 million Europeans were captured by North Africans and taken back to serve. Right now there are 9.2 million slaves currently in Africa. If we are to take down statues and rebuke the men who founded this country due to engaging in a practice that was part of the time they lived, what do we do with the whole continent that to this day still engages in this barbaric practice? Do we tear down any statue that memorializes the Aztecs because they engaged in human sacrifice?

Quote
Among west coast societies, the material goods and slaves acquired through raiding were important avenues to build up sufficient wealth to host potlatches and other give-away ceremonies. At a community level, warfare played a multifaceted role, and was waged for different reasons. Some conflicts were waged for economic and political goals, such as gaining access to resources or territory, exacting tribute from another nation or controlling trade routes. Revenge was a consistent motivating factor across North America, a factor that could lead to recurrent cycles of violence, often low intensity, which could last generations. Among the Iroquoian nations in the northeast, ‘mourning wars’ were practiced.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/popular-books/aboriginal-people-canadian-military/warfare-pre-columbian-north-america.html
     Do we now forget about the Indians who lived in NA before the Europeans arrived?

Washington and the others were not perfect men, but they created a great nation that became better over time and worked to destroy the institution of slavery. People like to continually punish America for what they have done, but can you name  another country that fought a civil war to stop slavery?

While slavery was not a good thing by any means, that doesn't mean all the good the men who fought and built this country did goes away to be forgotten.

I've given you evidence that the US is no more evil than other countries. Now ask yourself why is it just US history that is demonized for doing things on this land that was not only done the world over, but on the soil you stand well before early settlers came.

Offline mmmmm

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Offline angryguy77

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.






Offline mmmmm

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This is what Sen. Tammy Duckworth "TRIED" to explain just recently about the title of this thread...

She stated eloquently that there NEEDS to be NATIONAL DIALOGUE about this...and then she was promptly ridiculed and labeled "America Hater" by our "HEROIC" Tucker Carlson....

The SAME TC that "served" on Dancing with the Stars while Mrs. Tammy was laying it on the line for her country



Keep it classy, TC...do the funky chicken for me.

Anyways sarcasm aside there DOES need to be SERIOUS "NATIONAL" dialogue about this...I know Pres. Trump has already taken his stance but he has less than 4 months left in office...

Once he is voted out this discussion WILL STILL BE relevant.

Tucker is a coward who has never had any skin in the game.

I mean....his disrespect of Sen. Duckworth was just SO over the top....

She DID NOT say - "Yes - take ALL Confederate statues down...."

She simply stated that there needs to be national dialogue about it and TC ripped into her for no reason.........

It wasn't just about confederates. It's disingenuous to pretend she wasn't talking about our founders as well.

If we are to take statues down for reasons, should we also prevent the theory of evolution being taught given Darwin was a racist as well? Where does the purge stop? Who decides?

False equivalence.  "Honoring" vs "teaching information about".  Not the same.

The point of removing the statues is to discontinue honoring and idolation of figures who, based on what we know now, should not be honored.   For example, we should not be honoring figures who were, in fact, enemies of the Union.

That doesn't mean we stop teaching as fact what the figures did in history and what we learned from their existence.   

Whether Darwin was a racist may mean we should not honor him as a person of the highest moral character.   But that doesn't mean we should not teach what he did and what we learned through him because that knowledge is more important than the man.

I can understand opposition to confederate statues, however I don't like what that has led to. It started with taking them down and here we are now looking at taking down Mt. Rushmore. I believe that many laughed at Trump for saying it would lead to this and here we are.

How do we know his science was flawed based on what we know of his views? You see where this is heading?

We are in the midst of a cultural revolution and those don't usually end well. The goal here is not just to remove statues, but the very foundation on which the country was set on.

Nah.   This is just a straw man.   Just because a handful of people with extreme views might suggest bringing down Rushmore doesn't make a real thing that is ever really going to happen.

And even if people talk about it, then it's just talk.  Talk is good.  Way better than not talking.  TALK to people and let them know why you disagree with the idea of taking down a particular statue - and base it on the merits of that particular statue.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Angryguy -

A part of this is about IMAGES that we as PEOPLE (ALL AMERICANS) have been exposed to in this country....MANY images..

When I type in "Jesus" via GOOGLE why does THIS come up...



...but NOT this:



BTW - I had to type in "BLACK Jesus" in Google to get the CORRECT image to come up.

Why do SO LITTLE people know about the guy on the LEFT below



But MANY treat Ol's Supes as a God?

( I do "LOVE" Supes, BTW - as much as I love Augustus Freeman IV). DC needs to stop BURYING Icon.

Make NO mistake about it, Angryguy - what Officer Chauvin did to Mr. Floyd TORE OFF a scab in this country that had a HUUUUGE wound....this wound has been FESTERING for MANY, MANY YEARS.....

This country is in the middle of a RECKONING....there is NOTHING wrong with a rational discussion about our IMAGES...."STATUES".....from BOTH sides....as Sen. Duckworth explained.

And FINALLY - YES, AG - I "DID" listen to almost ALL (about 5:30 secs of it) video and heard enough. I trust very little of what TC says - especially when he KEEPS saying "The Left (ME - Moderate Democrat) HATES America."

I do NOT.

But America IS in the middle of a reckoning.

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Good Trouble.

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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So, basically, we shouldn't have statues or memorials of anyone—nor should we name stadiums and other buildings for anyone—because if you dig deep enough, you're going to find something objectionable about every single human being who ever lived, except Jesus.

So do we take Washington and others off our currency because they owned slaves? Do we forget about all of the positive contributions and personal sacrifices made by all of those derisively labelled "rich old white men" who, you know, only founded this country?

I sure hope no one ever digs too deep into my history.

By the way, I'm waiting for someone, anyone—okay, I'll be the one—to bring up good ol' Charlie Darwin and his racist evolutionary ideas about blacks (and browns and every other nonwhite color) being inferior to white Europeans. Can we please cancel him and his ridiculous ideas from our culture?
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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Offline GreenFaith1819

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So, basically, we shouldn't have statues or memorials of anyone—nor should we name stadiums and other buildings for anyone—because if you dig deep enough, you're going to find something objectionable about every single human being who ever lived, except Jesus.

So do we take Washington and others off our currency because they owned slaves? Do we forget about all of the positive contributions and personal sacrifices made by all of those derisively labelled "rich old white men" who, you know, only founded this country?

I sure hope no one ever digs too deep into my history.

By the way, I'm waiting for someone, anyone—okay, I'll be the one—to bring up good ol' Charlie Darwin and his racist evolutionary ideas about blacks (and browns and every other nonwhite color) being inferior to white Europeans. Can we please cancel him and his ridiculous ideas from our culture?

This is WHY we need HONEST NATIONAL dialogue about is, Rock....and unfortunately it is NOT coming from the White House - at least not President Trump.

He is ALREADY dug in....the supposed "Stable Genius"....that would....SHOULD...lead AMERICA into a discussion about this.....

And BTW - Why, My Friend - has Pres. Trump and The White House delayed / pushed back getting Harriet Tubman on the $20.00 dollar bill?
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Offline chicagoceltic

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So, basically, we shouldn't have statues or memorials of anyone—nor should we name stadiums and other buildings for anyone—because if you dig deep enough, you're going to find something objectionable about every single human being who ever lived, except Jesus.

So do we take Washington and others off our currency because they owned slaves? Do we forget about all of the positive contributions and personal sacrifices made by all of those derisively labelled "rich old white men" who, you know, only founded this country?

I sure hope no one ever digs too deep into my history.

By the way, I'm waiting for someone, anyone—okay, I'll be the one—to bring up good ol' Charlie Darwin and his racist evolutionary ideas about blacks (and browns and every other nonwhite color) being inferior to white Europeans. Can we please cancel him and his ridiculous ideas from our culture?
Darwin was discussed earlier.

I am with Roy on a lot of this. I think statues of the founders should be left alone. Monuments to the Confederates, in my opinion, should be taken down from government property. I have two main issues with these: 1) they were traitors to the country and 2) many (most?) of these monuments were erected 30+ years after the Civil War when Jim Crow laws were being enacted. These monuments were put up with malicious intent and not for historical reasons.
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Offline GreenFaith1819

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So, basically, we shouldn't have statues or memorials of anyone—nor should we name stadiums and other buildings for anyone—because if you dig deep enough, you're going to find something objectionable about every single human being who ever lived, except Jesus.

So do we take Washington and others off our currency because they owned slaves? Do we forget about all of the positive contributions and personal sacrifices made by all of those derisively labelled "rich old white men" who, you know, only founded this country?

I sure hope no one ever digs too deep into my history.

By the way, I'm waiting for someone, anyone—okay, I'll be the one—to bring up good ol' Charlie Darwin and his racist evolutionary ideas about blacks (and browns and every other nonwhite color) being inferior to white Europeans. Can we please cancel him and his ridiculous ideas from our culture?
Darwin was discussed earlier.

I am with Roy on a lot of this. I think statues of the founders should be left alone. Monuments to the Confederates, in my opinion, should be taken down from government property. I have two main issues with these: 1) they were traitors to the country and 2) many (most?) of these monuments were erected 30+ years after the Civil War when Jim Crow laws were being enacted. These monuments were put up with malicious intent and not for historical reasons.

See...such discussion should start right here...

But Tucker Carlson shoots down HONEST discussion with his ignorant "Left hates America" trope.
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Online Birdman

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Build a building where u can put statues of whoever ppl tore down and let it be open to the public..then if ppl want to see it, they can visit..if ppl don’t, then they don’t have to see it
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Offline Vermont Green

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Difficult topic, difficult discussion.  My two-cents is that anyone you choose to honor, short of Mother Theresa, may have some skeletons in their closets.  Yes, for George Washington to have owned slaves or Thomas Jefferson to have impregnated his slaves, are some serious skeletons, can't debate that.

Someone else said it above but I too would be happy to draw the line at the confederate civil war heroes.  That is a pretty clear distinction.  Washington fought for independence from a monarchy.  Lee fought for the right to continue slavery. 

In my younger days, I lived in the DC area and had a girlfriend for a bit in Richmond.  I was stunned to see the confederate statues in a park right in the middle of an African American neighborhood.  That was years ago (I won't say how many) and even then, it seemed wrong to me.  I could see from the puzzled look this southern-raised but otherwise very normal young woman gave me in response to my reaction that things were different.

And my last point, the argument is often made that we need to take down the statue and stop celebrating Thomas Jefferson (for example) so that we can put up native american heroes or African American heroes.  Why can't we do both, if you want to put up Sitting Bull or Harriet Tubman, great, put up the statue or build the monument.  You don't need to take down Jefferson to put up Tubman.