Author Topic: ICE kicking out foreign students at schools that are purely on-line this Fall  (Read 1968 times)

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Offline Evantime34

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I mean, if the only reason they’re allowed to reside in the US is to go to school here, and they are not in fact attending class here, I don’t see why it’s a problem.

They can still get their degree, and presumably they’ll have their visas renewed upon in-person classes starting back up.

The administration is bending existing federal regulations quite a bit to accommodate these students who have no legal right to be here.

It will most likely be a big financial loss for colleges and the businesses around colleges and during a financial crisis, it doesn't seem to prudent.

Colleges and universities get plenty of money.

How....unrepublican....?
Usually conservatives try and keep their nose out of private businesses so they can continue to make profIt’s without restrictions (relaxing environmental Restrictions comes to mind most readily). Foreign students are usually a Colleges/Universities biggest cash cow.

BTW here are some links After a quick “colleges closing” search (that admittedly I only skimmed the articles) debunking your theory that colleges/universities get plenty of Money. Many are dying.

https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-many-colleges-and-universities-have-closed-since-2016/539379/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedder/2020/05/18/colleges-on-life-support-face-3-choices--death-merger-or-survival/amp/

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/12/03/the-other-college-debt-crisis-schools-are-going-broke.html

And the one opposite view point I found that...isn’t as opposite as it sounds:
https://www.higheredtoday.org/2019/09/23/colleges-closing-spoiler-alert-probably-not/

Some poorly run colleges should go bankrupt.  Businesses certainly do, at an extraordinarily higher rate.

That’s all well and good but are those businesses going bankrupt bc the government is taking away their highest income customers? (International students are the highest percentage of full pay Tuition)

Let’s not also ignore the fact that many college towns rely on income generated by colleges, they well payed faculty and staff as well as those college kids pay a lot of rents, drink a lot alcohol, but a lot of computers, etc.

Yes?  See Covid-19.

Disingenuous. Covid effected everyone, nearly equally unless you were a grocery store or big box store. This is targeted government intervention in a certain business sector. Something conservatives have generally/traditionally been against.

So what’s the end game? What benefit does this law have? So far you’ve simply argued that it isn’t that bad...but then what’s good about it?

The government, long before Trump, decided that a maximum of one course could be online.  That’s the existing law.

For last spring, a temporary exemption was granted, allowing students to study online only.

That temporary exemption was just modified and extended, granting substantially more leniency to students than existing law.  They do have to take one in-person course, rather than the three or so they are required to under the law.

No good deed goes unpunished.  Trump should have just kept the law in place.

Right, the law is being brought closer to the original. Not as strict as the original but less lenient than the temporary “pandemic exception”. Sounds like you want me to congratulate Trump for making the original exception, ok clap clap. But...we’re still in a pandemic. So this less lenient pandemic exception is going To effectively keep foreign students out of colleges because They can’t get back into the country to take in person classes.

They’re are also a few high end institutions that decided to go online only (ie Harvard, Princeton) just a few days before this new exception. All those foreign students and any other institutions that were going(after months of researching and planning) to go online are all screwed.

So, I’ll ask again, since you didn’t Directly answer the first time. What good is coming out of making a stricter Pandemic exception?

Perhaps hwangijini has answer. He certainly seems much more educated on this subject than you or I.
first, this policy creates great disruption and hardship for tens of thousands of international students. (by the way, there are over 1,000,000 of them in the US.) those who are partly through a program/degree now suddenly have to transfer to another school? for international students that involves a ton of paperwork and uncertainty. it may force them to extend their time studying in the US. it may force some of them to return home, to conditions without internet. to pay large sums of money to travel and then reenroll. and once out of the country, it is never certain ICE will let them back in. stress will skyrocket.

bottom line - this latest policy harms universities and international students, and, is not necessary, as proven by the federal decisions in the spring term. the feds could have continued what they started in the spring, which was - follow the decisions that domestic students follow. if they go 100% online, you go too.

now, this is a partial reversal of that earlier decision.

to the points above...

yes, the new policy is more in line with the original policy, which had been abandoned by the feds since it directly undermined the entire purpose of having visas and processes to bring international students to the US.

The US government has welcomed international students for well over half a century, that is why they issue so many visas AND work with universities to keep the visa process honest and efficient. both sides see great value to having such students here.

what value? three main ones:

international students provide global diversity on campus for american students. it forces many faculty and students here to deal with other cultures and reflect upon their own cultures on education. all universities know that globalization is good for US students in terms of reducing parochialism and expanding their cultural competency.

international students also make a positive impact on the local community. they mean the sharing food, music, art and more with local residents.  as one example,  i helped a prof from China stage "battles" between 60 foot long chinese dragons for our local town festivals. the citizens loved it and learned from it. my office helped international students stage cultural events and invited local people. we even had our south asian students teach cricket to our university baseball team. :)

in terms of research contributions, please, go the the campus of any major US research university and visit the graduate programs in hard sciences. chemistry, engineering, physics, math and more are heavily populated by very intelligent and highly motivated international students. to remove them would strike a serious blow to university based research in the US since many of them are doing essential support work for profs and for federal grants.

as the NSF states "At the graduate level, international students accounted for 60% of graduate students in engineering and 56% in mathematics and computer sciences."

financially, it is well know that international students bring a TON money to the US. International students contributed $45 billion to the U.S. economy in 2018, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce. this includes rent, car purchases, buying groceries, TV, computers, tourism, etc. etc. etc.

historically, the US government has recognized the value international students bring to the US - culturally, research, and financial.  historically the US government and universities have commonly been partners in bringing such students to the US.

This is a significant change in practice and in the relationship between the feds and universities. this could permanently harm a practice and relationship that has benefited the US and the students greatly.
As someone who worked in research finance at MIT and Harvard I can confirm that this is correct.

If foreign students are allowed to stay in the US over the summer when they aren't taking any classes, then I don't see why they need to leave when classes go online.

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Offline liam

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Trump is now at war with higher education.


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Too many Universities and School Systems are about Radical Left Indoctrination, not Education. Therefore, I am telling the Treasury Department to re-examine their Tax-Exempt Status...
11:49 AM · Jul 10, 2020"

Offline hpantazo

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Trump is now at war with higher education.


"Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Too many Universities and School Systems are about Radical Left Indoctrination, not Education. Therefore, I am telling the Treasury Department to re-examine their Tax-Exempt Status...
11:49 AM · Jul 10, 2020"


Gotta give him credit, he's going totally all out old school confederate and anti-education, anti-science anti-immigration. It's like he's trying to burn down the country because he knows he's going to lose.

Offline Donoghus

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Trump is now at war with higher education.


"Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Too many Universities and School Systems are about Radical Left Indoctrination, not Education. Therefore, I am telling the Treasury Department to re-examine their Tax-Exempt Status...
11:49 AM · Jul 10, 2020"


Gotta give him credit, he's going totally all out old school confederate and anti-education, anti-science anti-immigration. It's like he's trying to burn down the country because he knows he's going to lose.

Government really should revisit tax exempt status for a variety of entities.


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Offline hpantazo

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Trump is now at war with higher education.


"Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Too many Universities and School Systems are about Radical Left Indoctrination, not Education. Therefore, I am telling the Treasury Department to re-examine their Tax-Exempt Status...
11:49 AM · Jul 10, 2020"


Gotta give him credit, he's going totally all out old school confederate and anti-education, anti-science anti-immigration. It's like he's trying to burn down the country because he knows he's going to lose.

Government really should revisit tax exempt status for a variety of entities.

Whether anyone agrees with that or not, the reason for doing so should have nothing at all to do with the accusation of 'indoctrinating our children to radical left wing policies' . Its an all out attack on information, truth, education and science. When governments attack these pillars, thats when societies collapse.

Offline mmmmm

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Trump is now at war with higher education.


"Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Too many Universities and School Systems are about Radical Left Indoctrination, not Education. Therefore, I am telling the Treasury Department to re-examine their Tax-Exempt Status...
11:49 AM · Jul 10, 2020"


Gotta give him credit, he's going totally all out old school confederate and anti-education, anti-science anti-immigration. It's like he's trying to burn down the country because he knows he's going to lose.

Government really should revisit tax exempt status for a variety of entities.

True, and in the long run, I believe many colleges and universities should be on the list for that revisit.

But long before I targeted them, I'd have a lot of entities benefiting from our current give-away-program-for-the-extreme-wealthy, otherwise known as our current tax law.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Offline mmmmm

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Complicating the thread topic is, of course, the surge in cases among college-age kids:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Parties-beer-and-coronavirus-Surge-in-cases-15398310.php

That makes it even harder to comply safely with the ICE ruling.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Offline Donoghus

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Trump is now at war with higher education.


"Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Too many Universities and School Systems are about Radical Left Indoctrination, not Education. Therefore, I am telling the Treasury Department to re-examine their Tax-Exempt Status...
11:49 AM · Jul 10, 2020"


Gotta give him credit, he's going totally all out old school confederate and anti-education, anti-science anti-immigration. It's like he's trying to burn down the country because he knows he's going to lose.

Government really should revisit tax exempt status for a variety of entities.

Whether anyone agrees with that or not, the reason for doing so should have nothing at all to do with the accusation of 'indoctrinating our children to radical left wing policies' . Its an all out attack on information, truth, education and science. When governments attack these pillars, thats when societies collapse.

Oh, absolutely.


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Offline Donoghus

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Trump is now at war with higher education.


"Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Too many Universities and School Systems are about Radical Left Indoctrination, not Education. Therefore, I am telling the Treasury Department to re-examine their Tax-Exempt Status...
11:49 AM · Jul 10, 2020"


Gotta give him credit, he's going totally all out old school confederate and anti-education, anti-science anti-immigration. It's like he's trying to burn down the country because he knows he's going to lose.

Government really should revisit tax exempt status for a variety of entities.

True, and in the long run, I believe many colleges and universities should be on the list for that revisit.

But long before I targeted them, I'd have a lot of entities benefiting from our current give-away-program-for-the-extreme-wealthy, otherwise known as our current tax law.

Agreed.


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Offline mmmmm

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NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Offline hpantazo

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Some people who I know that work in admin positions in a few colleges and universities informed me that their institutions held emergency meetings in response to this. They all modified their fall plans, changing from online classes to a hybrid online-in person semester to satisfy the requirements to keep international students in the country.

So basically Trump's efforts to strong-arm schools to open in person this fall is partially working, which is sad.

Offline sgrogan

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Some people who I know that work in admin positions in a few colleges and universities informed me that their institutions held emergency meetings in response to this. They all modified their fall plans, changing from online classes to a hybrid online-in person semester to satisfy the requirements to keep international students in the country.

So basically Trump's efforts to strong-arm schools to open in person this fall is partially working, which is sad.

Agreed that it's sad, but doesn't this hint at the motivation?
Does anyone know if there is consensus that out of state students can return to campus for all on-line coarse work.

Offline Donoghus

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Update:

Quote
NBC News
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·
2m
BREAKING: US government agrees to rescind order blocking foreign students taking classes online from living in the US, judge announces in federal district court in Massachusetts, saying the government and plaintiffs reached a resolution. -
@JuliaEAinsley


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Offline mmmmm

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The administration backs down, rescinding the rule change:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-weighs-scaling-back-rules-on-foreign-students-studying-online-11594746772

Quote
The Trump administration has agreed to rescind rules it issued last week governing whether international students can enroll at U.S. universities this fall, settling a lawsuit filed by Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Boston federal court.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Online ozgod

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The administration backs down, rescinding the rule change:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-weighs-scaling-back-rules-on-foreign-students-studying-online-11594746772

Quote
The Trump administration has agreed to rescind rules it issued last week governing whether international students can enroll at U.S. universities this fall, settling a lawsuit filed by Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Boston federal court.

Typical of the Trump administration to make a policy and then backtrack because they didn't think it through and realize that it was never going to work. No wonder nobody has any confidence in them to execute anything.
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