Author Topic: Kareem's Skyhook  (Read 1006 times)

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Re: Kareem's Skyhook
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2020, 12:27:27 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm honestly not sure how well it would work today.  Sure in some situations it could (and we've seen guys like Embiid do it on occasion), but I don't think anyone could do it as much as Kareem with the way the game is played today.  Far more athletic guards, zone defenses, double teams, etc., it just makes it very difficult to consistently use as I think it would get swiped a lot on the way up from help side defenders.
One thing worth noting is the analytics crowd would probable hate if a high usage player started using the sky hook shot. In today's take a 3 or drive in and draw a foul NBA the sky hook doesn't fit.
Another narrative driven argument against analytics and people are still making snide remarks about how "snark" and "presumptuous" analytically-driven fans are when they're dealing with these on a constant basis :laugh:.

No fan who truly believes in analytics would despise the skyhook if a high usage player somehow became the second coming of Jabbar. The efficiency and resilience of that move is excellent for an analytically-driven offence looking for an offensive centrepiece when combined with good passing.
You do understand that people can discuss this stuff from either side without being pompous pricks about it, right?

Plenty of people have managed to do that on these boards for years.
And plenty of people have been routinely using Aunt Sallies to shoot down the whole concept of analytics with the kind of pompousness you've described, it's not like fans who like using analytics have been shoving its opinions down the throats of others from day 1 with no regard for civil discussion, we want to discuss respectfully, that's why we're making threads/posts (eg. this thread, I created it because the skyhook is an amazing move both on the court and spreadsheet + the video on it is informative, not because I want to bash "non-believers" of analytics).

If you want respectful discussion from me you can always stop being "lol nope because (insert crude analytics and a snide reminder at how watching games is king - it is, but let's not pretend that most of us track tons of games play by play to form an encyclopedic collection of scouting reports for the kind of insight that is implied in a 'watch the games' retort)", it's not difficult at all imo if the discussion you mentioned in your post is truly craved by people who post here. The discussions I've had with people who disagree with me on such topics, while heated at times have very rarely involved us being pricks to each other and I strongly believe that's the kind of discussion that will occur when the crowd that's not sold on analytics doesn't casually dismiss points that the other side is making with narratives like the one I responded to above.
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Re: Kareem's Skyhook
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2020, 12:27:33 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Regarding the topic at hand. 

It's an almost unstoppable shot but it's also insanely difficult to master.  The amount of touch needed is really tough.


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Re: Kareem's Skyhook
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2020, 12:35:48 PM »

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I have wanted Porzingis to add this shot since he came into the league.

As noted, it takes a certain level of athleticism to get this shot off and hit it effectively. I think Porzingis fits that profile, but not every NBA big does.

The other side of the shot is, as noted, that the game has changed, and that using a sky hook would be situational. It was in Kareem’s day too. It would require a big with court awareness and passing ability, rather than a put your head down and force the shot kind of player. Not even elite level passing, just recognizing the double teams and passing to an open 3. Do that well enough and you have more one on one opportunity for the sky hook. A pick your poison option.

There are a handful of bigs that could make this work, but a “Zinger Slinger” hook shot* would bring some old school big play back to the game.

* the sky hook will always have Kareem’s patent on it, even if he didn’t invent it.
The unfortunate thing is that we'll probably never see it because iirc Carlisie went out and said that Porzingis will not be posting up much, if at all earlier on this season. Btw assuming that Zinger magically ends up developing a skyhook, do you think that he'll force defences to pick their poison in the post? I don't remember him being that type of distributor and I've read multiple accounts noting his weak passing.
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Re: Kareem's Skyhook
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2020, 01:04:56 PM »

Offline bdm860

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I'm honestly not sure how well it would work today.  Sure in some situations it could (and we've seen guys like Embiid do it on occasion), but I don't think anyone could do it as much as Kareem with the way the game is played today.  Far more athletic guards, zone defenses, double teams, etc., it just makes it very difficult to consistently use as I think it would get swiped a lot on the way up from help side defenders.

Would counter that with 3 point spacing.

Ainge was on the Lowe Post last month, and they were talking about about the '93 Finals (amongst other things), and Lowe commented, "you watch these old games, no one is spacing to the 3 point arc, like not even guys you think of as shooters, like Kevin Johnson is spacing to like 19 feet away for these kick out passes from Charles, it's like why is the line even there, there's like one guy on the floor that's even bothering with it, it's really crazy how bad the spacing is."

That got me down the rabbit hole of watching some games from '93 and earlier and looking at the spacing and ya it's terrible.  4-5 offense guys constantly inside the 3 point arc before the shot even goes up, guys setting up 15-21 feet away, if there's a perimeter guy he's often standing on the line or cuts inside the line when rotating over.

Watching the posted Kareem video, he's sometimes facing double and triple teams and you see guards swiping at it.

It might actually be easier to get off today when facing single coverage at least.

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Re: Kareem's Skyhook
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2020, 01:15:34 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I'm honestly not sure how well it would work today.  Sure in some situations it could (and we've seen guys like Embiid do it on occasion), but I don't think anyone could do it as much as Kareem with the way the game is played today.  Far more athletic guards, zone defenses, double teams, etc., it just makes it very difficult to consistently use as I think it would get swiped a lot on the way up from help side defenders.

Would counter that with 3 point spacing.

Ainge was on the Lowe Post last month, and they were talking about about the '93 Finals (amongst other things), and Lowe commented, "you watch these old games, no one is spacing to the 3 point arc, like not even guys you think of as shooters, like Kevin Johnson is spacing to like 19 feet away for these kick out passes from Charles, it's like why is the line even there, there's like one guy on the floor that's even bothering with it, it's really crazy how bad the spacing is."

That got me down the rabbit hole of watching some games from '93 and earlier and looking at the spacing and ya it's terrible.  4-5 offense guys constantly inside the 3 point arc before the shot even goes up, guys setting up 15-21 feet away, if there's a perimeter guy he's often standing on the line or cuts inside the line when rotating over.

Watching the posted Kareem video, he's sometimes facing double and triple teams and you see guards swiping at it.

It might actually be easier to get off today when facing single coverage at least.
in many ways 3 point spacing would make it more difficult since you have to account for people coming from all angles.  The defenders are also just quicker and faster today, while I don't think you could really advance the shot much to account for that.  It would be hard to go up stronger or quicker than Kareem did and have the shot be effective.  It is a difficult shot to master, but we've seen Shaq, Embiid, and several other bigs after Kareem use the hook shot.  They don't do it much but they've done it.  I just think if it really worked to the same degree, we'd see it more, and the reason we don't see it more is it just doesn't work as well as it did in the past.  I mean wouldn't someone like Duncan have been all of that shot if it still had a place.  Duncan is the perfect skill set of player to use it and yet he used it sparingly at best. I do acknowledge some of the reason it isn't used it is probably difficult to master and no one could do it as cleanly or as well as Kareem, but I do think a lot of it is simply the game today just doesn't allow for it to be used much. 
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Re: Kareem's Skyhook
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2020, 01:42:51 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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I have wanted Porzingis to add this shot since he came into the league.

As noted, it takes a certain level of athleticism to get this shot off and hit it effectively. I think Porzingis fits that profile, but not every NBA big does.

The other side of the shot is, as noted, that the game has changed, and that using a sky hook would be situational. It was in Kareemís day too. It would require a big with court awareness and passing ability, rather than a put your head down and force the shot kind of player. Not even elite level passing, just recognizing the double teams and passing to an open 3. Do that well enough and you have more one on one opportunity for the sky hook. A pick your poison option.

There are a handful of bigs that could make this work, but a ďZinger SlingerĒ hook shot* would bring some old school big play back to the game.

* the sky hook will always have Kareemís patent on it, even if he didnít invent it.
The unfortunate thing is that we'll probably never see it because iirc Carlisie went out and said that Porzingis will not be posting up much, if at all earlier on this season. Btw assuming that Zinger magically ends up developing a skyhook, do you think that he'll force defences to pick their poison in the post? I don't remember him being that type of distributor and I've read multiple accounts noting his weak passing.

Thatís a good question. In his first seasons with the Knicks he was expected to score, so he rarely passed. He was definitely a put your head down and force the shot player. He was a young guy with extremely high expectations that the defense was focused on stopping. Oftentimes he was exposed for that, dribbled into double teams, and shot poorly as a result.

He has the touch and athleticism to be a good passer and the height to see over a defender. It is certainly a skill he should be working on, whether or not he ever tries to develop a sky hook. He was still recovering from injury this season and Luka took on most of the passing responsibility, so it will be interesting to see how he develops going forward. Learning to pass like Horford could help the Dallas P&R game a lot.

I think heís been a poor passer more due to circumstances than talent though.