Author Topic: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated  (Read 74294 times)

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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1695 on: September 24, 2020, 10:37:09 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Quote
We see LE (Law Enforcement) going into predominantly white (and in many cases better-off) communities and the SAME outcomes being different with NO loss of life or bullets being released.

Can you point to one instance of this?  A white suspect opens fire on police, wounding one, but there are no shots fired by police?

If you canít, please stop posting inflammatory, untrue statements.

Roy -

If all you can post is that my comments are inflammatory then I apologize.

I'll just withhold my POV's form this blog from here on out since they seem to "Upset People".

Go Celtics?

Just the untrue ones.

Roy -

Since I've been on here MY POV has not been received by all. I get it.

The most difficult thing for me to accept is that I cannot fully get my "POV" out to some people with them getting a CLEAR understanding of where I'm coming from.

In my efforts to bridge the divide I believe the divide still remains. This does bother me.

You can express your POV while being factually accurate though, right?

Roy -

What I've found out is that my facts don't often line up with others at times - even though they make complete sense to me (and others).

Call this - I guess - "Alternative Facts" - cued by none other than Kelly Anne Conway.

I can go into many barbershops and we talk the SAME things - but when I come - say - HERE - on this blog - I get so many different responses.

Why is it that perception is different for some and different for others?

Which one is right? Which one is wrong?

Who says that EITHER is right or wrong?

As it turns out you likely are right, here's a article discussing a study on this issue based on Chicago PD data.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/chicago-police-department-consent-decree-black-lives-matter-resistance.html?utm_source=The+Marshall+Project+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7e22d85c4d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_06_03_11_35&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5e02cdad9d-7e22d85c4d-171341017

At the very least it seems to be debatable, in summary a study based on Chicago PD data found that blacks were disproportionately targeted with police force even tho they resisted on average less than white suspects.

Chicago PD are pretty notorious for their racist tactics.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/10000-files-on-chicago-police-torture-decades-now-online/504233/

ya thats one of the reasons I qualified my statement, it could be  problem unique to the Chicago PD who do have something of a rep in this regard. But there is at least some evidence that use of force is unequally applied across racial lines.

But honestly, its kind of hard to believe cops ARNE'T more likely to use force against blacks than whites. Given that blacks are pulled over at higher rates, more likely to be randomly searched at higher rates, more likely to be arrested for drug offences, more likely to be tha targets of "para military like" police targets like swat interventions, ect.


Right and thatís clearly due to racism. Blacks and whites commit crimes at the same rate, yet our prisons are filled with African Americans

Blacks and whites arenít close in terms of crime rate, particularly violent crime rate.


According to who?

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_3941346

The FBI.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21


Have you ever thought that racism itself has lead to those imbalances?

Nope, because itís not the case. 

Seriously, youíre apparently just learning tonight that blacks have a 2.5x - 3x higher violent crime rate.  Itís about 2x higher even when normalized for poverty. Maybe do a little independent research before firing off defenses?

Poor Blacks live on top of each other in urban areas due to redlining, Jim Crow and slavery. So the poverty thing is skewed to say the least. Poor whites are spread wide and everywhere, like their privilege, and ability to get a ride or or PCíd rather than being shot, beaten up, or arrested.

Which is why whites are shot more per encounter than blacks, despite the violent crime disparity?

Unfortunately this discussion always circulates around number of shootings which doesnít tell the story when it comes to the role that race plays in decisions made by law enforcement.   

Iím going to speculate that in the history of law enforcement there has never (hyperbole of course, it MAY have happened) been a white officer shoot a white citizen BECAUSE OF the color of the victims/perpetratorís skin.   Whereas, I would suggest the possibility that race often has something to do with the reactions and escalation in shootings that involve black citizens.    This idea is impossible to prove with statistics but is nonetheless possible.

Additionally if the debate goes back to its essential question ó is there racial discrimination in law enforcement? ó it would be folly to rely on shootings alone to answer that question. 

Shootings are often escalated events that can be perpetuated by the fears, mistrust and prejudices of both sides. 

The more relevant data to me would be the frequency and nature of much lower level interventions in which suspected citizens (perhaps innocent) are questioned, watched, followed, harassed/bullied, cited, jailed, and even imprisoned.

I wouldnít discount GFs or other Black Americanís opinions on interventions by police and the level of suspicion and aggression that may occur in those ďminorĒ instancesó accumulated OR WITNESSED over a lifetime.  These cumulative interactions with police are far more relevant to the perpetuated opinion that blacks are disproportionately mistreated/discriminated against than shooting statistics would be (imo).   Statistics apparently support the idea that it is a ďmythĒ that blacks are shot by police more frequently than whites. However Iíll need a lot more proof than that to discount the experiences Iíve heard echoed by multitudes of black Americans regarding a culture of racial discrimination within law enforcement and the justice system.  The shootings are big events but the frequency of shootings are nothing compared to frequency of every day interactions between police and citizens.

Btw, I also wouldnít discount the higher crime rate among blacks as a key factor in why there is more suspicion and low level intervention.  But that is exactly what racial discrimination is.  Since more blacks commit crimes, Iíll be more on the lookout for blacks. I understand it, but that is still racial discrimination.

The entire BLM is predicated upon blacks being shots and/or killed disproportionately, though.  Similarly, the statements by GF I have rejected are ones that essentially argue "that would have never happened to a white person" or "if a black did that, they would have been killed".  It's just nonsensical hyperbole.  The idea that officers wouldn't fire back at a white suspect who had just shot a colleague?  It's silly.

So, yes, take the "shared experience" seriously, but don't be afraid to call it out when it's false.  As you know, people have perceptions all the time that aren't based in reality.  I'm not sure that the best approach is to validate those perceptions.  One area there shouldn't be validation is in regard to police shootings.  Police brutality / unlawful force is an issue throughout law enforcement, but it's not along black / white lines.

Roy -

All your rejection means to ME is that we have a difference of opinion.

I'm not going down a Rabbit Hole of a BANNING from you in going back and forth, ok?

You can have the last word and your thoughts - I respect that.

Respect MINES.

Who said anything about banning?

But, no:  I don't respect your thoughts here.  They're objectively wrong, and you've cited no evidence.  Saying that officers wouldn't fire at a white suspect who just shot them is not based in reality, and honestly, is nothing but race-baiting and a sign of perpetual victimhood.  It's a pretty universal truth:  if you shoot a cop, you will be fired upon, regardless of what race you are.  I find it offensive to suggest otherwise.

I mentioned BANNING Roy because yesterday you accused me of posting "Inflammatory comments" - which in turn jambr agreed with YOU but ALSO stated that you've done the same.

I agree with him.

There have been SEVERAL times I've wanted to go at you with some of your comments Roy but didn't want to risk a ban.

I think you have a LOT of leeway on here and a LOT of power. As a regular poster I don't have that same power.

Feel however you'd like.  Like with your comments about officers declining to fire at white shooters, however, it's all in your head. 

Here's your comment again:

Quote
We see LE (Law Enforcement) going into predominantly white (and in many cases better-off) communities and the SAME outcomes being different with NO loss of life or bullets being released.

Have you *ever* seen that?  If not, why lie about it and say you did?

roy -

At face value my comment came out wrong. I get that.

But in the OVERALL SCHEME of things you don't see why I have a STRONG concern about Law Enforcement in this country? As a Black Man with TWO Black sons??

AGAIN - at face value (and statistics be [dang]ed) my comment was wrong. But it DOES NOT cover up the FACT that MANY Blacks and people of color in this country lose trust in Law Enforcement when we see stuff like George Floyd, the outcome of Breonna Taylor, Aumaud Arbery and OTHER cases as well.

Additionally - a Black Grandfather was murdered in Iowa and his body set on fire just recently.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/us/man-found-dead-iowa-ditch-trnd/index.html
From the link you posted, there is no evidence of racial motivation in the Iowa incident. 

Quote
"The investigation has revealed no evidence to show the acts against Michael Williams were motivated by his race nor that his death was the result of a hate crime," according to a statement from the Department of Public Safety.

So why are you posting it as if it were a racial incident? 

If a black guy and a white guy get in a fight over a woman, it is a fight over a woman not a racial incident.  Even if racial slurs are said, it is still most likely just a fight over a woman.  The fight would most likely still occur if both guys were of the same race just with non-racial insults said.

Ok you have YOUR pov I have mines.

If the investigation proved otherwise then I get that.

Still won't make me any LESS uncomfortable around Law Enforcement.
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1696 on: September 24, 2020, 10:48:24 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Taz -

I see you read that horrific link and I thank you for it.

Did you see THIS part?

Quote
"This stark and brutal murder in the national context of racial injustice has struck intense fear for safety of our Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC) colleagues, friends, and families," President Anne Harris wrote in the statement.
"We live in a predominantly white community and work in a predominantly white college. The murder of Mr. Williams is an incident that is rare in the experience of most Iowans. But for many people of color, this incident is the most recent in an accumulated history of prejudice, mistreatment, and murder," the statement said
.
2021 CelticsStrong Historical Draft Indiana Pacers:
C- Marc Gasol
PF-
SF-
SG- Reggie Lewis
PG- Steve Nash

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1697 on: September 24, 2020, 11:18:47 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

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Quote
We see LE (Law Enforcement) going into predominantly white (and in many cases better-off) communities and the SAME outcomes being different with NO loss of life or bullets being released.

Can you point to one instance of this?  A white suspect opens fire on police, wounding one, but there are no shots fired by police?

If you canít, please stop posting inflammatory, untrue statements.

Roy -

If all you can post is that my comments are inflammatory then I apologize.

I'll just withhold my POV's form this blog from here on out since they seem to "Upset People".

Go Celtics?

Just the untrue ones.

Roy -

Since I've been on here MY POV has not been received by all. I get it.

The most difficult thing for me to accept is that I cannot fully get my "POV" out to some people with them getting a CLEAR understanding of where I'm coming from.

In my efforts to bridge the divide I believe the divide still remains. This does bother me.

You can express your POV while being factually accurate though, right?

Roy -

What I've found out is that my facts don't often line up with others at times - even though they make complete sense to me (and others).

Call this - I guess - "Alternative Facts" - cued by none other than Kelly Anne Conway.

I can go into many barbershops and we talk the SAME things - but when I come - say - HERE - on this blog - I get so many different responses.

Why is it that perception is different for some and different for others?

Which one is right? Which one is wrong?

Who says that EITHER is right or wrong?

As it turns out you likely are right, here's a article discussing a study on this issue based on Chicago PD data.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/chicago-police-department-consent-decree-black-lives-matter-resistance.html?utm_source=The+Marshall+Project+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7e22d85c4d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_06_03_11_35&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5e02cdad9d-7e22d85c4d-171341017

At the very least it seems to be debatable, in summary a study based on Chicago PD data found that blacks were disproportionately targeted with police force even tho they resisted on average less than white suspects.

Chicago PD are pretty notorious for their racist tactics.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/10000-files-on-chicago-police-torture-decades-now-online/504233/

ya thats one of the reasons I qualified my statement, it could be  problem unique to the Chicago PD who do have something of a rep in this regard. But there is at least some evidence that use of force is unequally applied across racial lines.

But honestly, its kind of hard to believe cops ARNE'T more likely to use force against blacks than whites. Given that blacks are pulled over at higher rates, more likely to be randomly searched at higher rates, more likely to be arrested for drug offences, more likely to be tha targets of "para military like" police targets like swat interventions, ect.


Right and thatís clearly due to racism. Blacks and whites commit crimes at the same rate, yet our prisons are filled with African Americans

Blacks and whites arenít close in terms of crime rate, particularly violent crime rate.


According to who?

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_3941346

The FBI.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21


Have you ever thought that racism itself has lead to those imbalances?

Nope, because itís not the case. 

Seriously, youíre apparently just learning tonight that blacks have a 2.5x - 3x higher violent crime rate.  Itís about 2x higher even when normalized for poverty. Maybe do a little independent research before firing off defenses?

Poor Blacks live on top of each other in urban areas due to redlining, Jim Crow and slavery. So the poverty thing is skewed to say the least. Poor whites are spread wide and everywhere, like their privilege, and ability to get a ride or or PCíd rather than being shot, beaten up, or arrested.

Which is why whites are shot more per encounter than blacks, despite the violent crime disparity?

Unfortunately this discussion always circulates around number of shootings which doesnít tell the story when it comes to the role that race plays in decisions made by law enforcement.   

Iím going to speculate that in the history of law enforcement there has never (hyperbole of course, it MAY have happened) been a white officer shoot a white citizen BECAUSE OF the color of the victims/perpetratorís skin.   Whereas, I would suggest the possibility that race often has something to do with the reactions and escalation in shootings that involve black citizens.    This idea is impossible to prove with statistics but is nonetheless possible.

Additionally if the debate goes back to its essential question ó is there racial discrimination in law enforcement? ó it would be folly to rely on shootings alone to answer that question. 

Shootings are often escalated events that can be perpetuated by the fears, mistrust and prejudices of both sides. 

The more relevant data to me would be the frequency and nature of much lower level interventions in which suspected citizens (perhaps innocent) are questioned, watched, followed, harassed/bullied, cited, jailed, and even imprisoned.

I wouldnít discount GFs or other Black Americanís opinions on interventions by police and the level of suspicion and aggression that may occur in those ďminorĒ instancesó accumulated OR WITNESSED over a lifetime.  These cumulative interactions with police are far more relevant to the perpetuated opinion that blacks are disproportionately mistreated/discriminated against than shooting statistics would be (imo).   Statistics apparently support the idea that it is a ďmythĒ that blacks are shot by police more frequently than whites. However Iíll need a lot more proof than that to discount the experiences Iíve heard echoed by multitudes of black Americans regarding a culture of racial discrimination within law enforcement and the justice system.  The shootings are big events but the frequency of shootings are nothing compared to frequency of every day interactions between police and citizens.

Btw, I also wouldnít discount the higher crime rate among blacks as a key factor in why there is more suspicion and low level intervention.  But that is exactly what racial discrimination is.  Since more blacks commit crimes, Iíll be more on the lookout for blacks. I understand it, but that is still racial discrimination.

The entire BLM is predicated upon blacks being shots and/or killed disproportionately, though.  Similarly, the statements by GF I have rejected are ones that essentially argue "that would have never happened to a white person" or "if a black did that, they would have been killed".  It's just nonsensical hyperbole.  The idea that officers wouldn't fire back at a white suspect who had just shot a colleague?  It's silly.

So, yes, take the "shared experience" seriously, but don't be afraid to call it out when it's false.  As you know, people have perceptions all the time that aren't based in reality.  I'm not sure that the best approach is to validate those perceptions.  One area there shouldn't be validation is in regard to police shootings.  Police brutality / unlawful force is an issue throughout law enforcement, but it's not along black / white lines.

Roy -

All your rejection means to ME is that we have a difference of opinion.

I'm not going down a Rabbit Hole of a BANNING from you in going back and forth, ok?

You can have the last word and your thoughts - I respect that.

Respect MINES.

Who said anything about banning?

But, no:  I don't respect your thoughts here.  They're objectively wrong, and you've cited no evidence.  Saying that officers wouldn't fire at a white suspect who just shot them is not based in reality, and honestly, is nothing but race-baiting and a sign of perpetual victimhood.  It's a pretty universal truth:  if you shoot a cop, you will be fired upon, regardless of what race you are.  I find it offensive to suggest otherwise.

I mentioned BANNING Roy because yesterday you accused me of posting "Inflammatory comments" - which in turn jambr agreed with YOU but ALSO stated that you've done the same.

I agree with him.

There have been SEVERAL times I've wanted to go at you with some of your comments Roy but didn't want to risk a ban.

I think you have a LOT of leeway on here and a LOT of power. As a regular poster I don't have that same power.

Feel however you'd like.  Like with your comments about officers declining to fire at white shooters, however, it's all in your head. 

Here's your comment again:

Quote
We see LE (Law Enforcement) going into predominantly white (and in many cases better-off) communities and the SAME outcomes being different with NO loss of life or bullets being released.

Have you *ever* seen that?  If not, why lie about it and say you did?

roy -

At face value my comment came out wrong. I get that.

But in the OVERALL SCHEME of things you don't see why I have a STRONG concern about Law Enforcement in this country? As a Black Man with TWO Black sons??

AGAIN - at face value (and statistics be [dang]ed) my comment was wrong. But it DOES NOT cover up the FACT that MANY Blacks and people of color in this country lose trust in Law Enforcement when we see stuff like George Floyd, the outcome of Breonna Taylor, Aumaud Arbery and OTHER cases as well.

Additionally - a Black Grandfather was murdered in Iowa and his body set on fire just recently.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/us/man-found-dead-iowa-ditch-trnd/index.html
From the link you posted, there is no evidence of racial motivation in the Iowa incident. 

Quote
"The investigation has revealed no evidence to show the acts against Michael Williams were motivated by his race nor that his death was the result of a hate crime," according to a statement from the Department of Public Safety.

So why are you posting it as if it were a racial incident? 

If a black guy and a white guy get in a fight over a woman, it is a fight over a woman not a racial incident.  Even if racial slurs are said, it is still most likely just a fight over a woman.  The fight would most likely still occur if both guys were of the same race just with non-racial insults said.

Ok you have YOUR pov I have mines.

If the investigation proved otherwise then I get that.

Still won't make me any LESS uncomfortable around Law Enforcement.
The story you linked to explicitly said the investigation showed no racial motivation.  So unless further info comes to light to show otherwise, it shouldn't be suggested that it was a racially motivated incident.   

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1698 on: September 24, 2020, 11:20:14 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15224
  • Tommy Points: 2764
  • 2021 CelticsStrong Historical Draft Indiana Pacers
Quote
We see LE (Law Enforcement) going into predominantly white (and in many cases better-off) communities and the SAME outcomes being different with NO loss of life or bullets being released.

Can you point to one instance of this?  A white suspect opens fire on police, wounding one, but there are no shots fired by police?

If you canít, please stop posting inflammatory, untrue statements.

Roy -

If all you can post is that my comments are inflammatory then I apologize.

I'll just withhold my POV's form this blog from here on out since they seem to "Upset People".

Go Celtics?

Just the untrue ones.

Roy -

Since I've been on here MY POV has not been received by all. I get it.

The most difficult thing for me to accept is that I cannot fully get my "POV" out to some people with them getting a CLEAR understanding of where I'm coming from.

In my efforts to bridge the divide I believe the divide still remains. This does bother me.

You can express your POV while being factually accurate though, right?

Roy -

What I've found out is that my facts don't often line up with others at times - even though they make complete sense to me (and others).

Call this - I guess - "Alternative Facts" - cued by none other than Kelly Anne Conway.

I can go into many barbershops and we talk the SAME things - but when I come - say - HERE - on this blog - I get so many different responses.

Why is it that perception is different for some and different for others?

Which one is right? Which one is wrong?

Who says that EITHER is right or wrong?

As it turns out you likely are right, here's a article discussing a study on this issue based on Chicago PD data.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/chicago-police-department-consent-decree-black-lives-matter-resistance.html?utm_source=The+Marshall+Project+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7e22d85c4d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_06_03_11_35&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5e02cdad9d-7e22d85c4d-171341017

At the very least it seems to be debatable, in summary a study based on Chicago PD data found that blacks were disproportionately targeted with police force even tho they resisted on average less than white suspects.

Chicago PD are pretty notorious for their racist tactics.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/10000-files-on-chicago-police-torture-decades-now-online/504233/

ya thats one of the reasons I qualified my statement, it could be  problem unique to the Chicago PD who do have something of a rep in this regard. But there is at least some evidence that use of force is unequally applied across racial lines.

But honestly, its kind of hard to believe cops ARNE'T more likely to use force against blacks than whites. Given that blacks are pulled over at higher rates, more likely to be randomly searched at higher rates, more likely to be arrested for drug offences, more likely to be tha targets of "para military like" police targets like swat interventions, ect.


Right and thatís clearly due to racism. Blacks and whites commit crimes at the same rate, yet our prisons are filled with African Americans

Blacks and whites arenít close in terms of crime rate, particularly violent crime rate.


According to who?

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_3941346

The FBI.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21


Have you ever thought that racism itself has lead to those imbalances?

Nope, because itís not the case. 

Seriously, youíre apparently just learning tonight that blacks have a 2.5x - 3x higher violent crime rate.  Itís about 2x higher even when normalized for poverty. Maybe do a little independent research before firing off defenses?

Poor Blacks live on top of each other in urban areas due to redlining, Jim Crow and slavery. So the poverty thing is skewed to say the least. Poor whites are spread wide and everywhere, like their privilege, and ability to get a ride or or PCíd rather than being shot, beaten up, or arrested.

Which is why whites are shot more per encounter than blacks, despite the violent crime disparity?

Unfortunately this discussion always circulates around number of shootings which doesnít tell the story when it comes to the role that race plays in decisions made by law enforcement.   

Iím going to speculate that in the history of law enforcement there has never (hyperbole of course, it MAY have happened) been a white officer shoot a white citizen BECAUSE OF the color of the victims/perpetratorís skin.   Whereas, I would suggest the possibility that race often has something to do with the reactions and escalation in shootings that involve black citizens.    This idea is impossible to prove with statistics but is nonetheless possible.

Additionally if the debate goes back to its essential question ó is there racial discrimination in law enforcement? ó it would be folly to rely on shootings alone to answer that question. 

Shootings are often escalated events that can be perpetuated by the fears, mistrust and prejudices of both sides. 

The more relevant data to me would be the frequency and nature of much lower level interventions in which suspected citizens (perhaps innocent) are questioned, watched, followed, harassed/bullied, cited, jailed, and even imprisoned.

I wouldnít discount GFs or other Black Americanís opinions on interventions by police and the level of suspicion and aggression that may occur in those ďminorĒ instancesó accumulated OR WITNESSED over a lifetime.  These cumulative interactions with police are far more relevant to the perpetuated opinion that blacks are disproportionately mistreated/discriminated against than shooting statistics would be (imo).   Statistics apparently support the idea that it is a ďmythĒ that blacks are shot by police more frequently than whites. However Iíll need a lot more proof than that to discount the experiences Iíve heard echoed by multitudes of black Americans regarding a culture of racial discrimination within law enforcement and the justice system.  The shootings are big events but the frequency of shootings are nothing compared to frequency of every day interactions between police and citizens.

Btw, I also wouldnít discount the higher crime rate among blacks as a key factor in why there is more suspicion and low level intervention.  But that is exactly what racial discrimination is.  Since more blacks commit crimes, Iíll be more on the lookout for blacks. I understand it, but that is still racial discrimination.

The entire BLM is predicated upon blacks being shots and/or killed disproportionately, though.  Similarly, the statements by GF I have rejected are ones that essentially argue "that would have never happened to a white person" or "if a black did that, they would have been killed".  It's just nonsensical hyperbole.  The idea that officers wouldn't fire back at a white suspect who had just shot a colleague?  It's silly.

So, yes, take the "shared experience" seriously, but don't be afraid to call it out when it's false.  As you know, people have perceptions all the time that aren't based in reality.  I'm not sure that the best approach is to validate those perceptions.  One area there shouldn't be validation is in regard to police shootings.  Police brutality / unlawful force is an issue throughout law enforcement, but it's not along black / white lines.

Roy -

All your rejection means to ME is that we have a difference of opinion.

I'm not going down a Rabbit Hole of a BANNING from you in going back and forth, ok?

You can have the last word and your thoughts - I respect that.

Respect MINES.

Who said anything about banning?

But, no:  I don't respect your thoughts here.  They're objectively wrong, and you've cited no evidence.  Saying that officers wouldn't fire at a white suspect who just shot them is not based in reality, and honestly, is nothing but race-baiting and a sign of perpetual victimhood.  It's a pretty universal truth:  if you shoot a cop, you will be fired upon, regardless of what race you are.  I find it offensive to suggest otherwise.

I mentioned BANNING Roy because yesterday you accused me of posting "Inflammatory comments" - which in turn jambr agreed with YOU but ALSO stated that you've done the same.

I agree with him.

There have been SEVERAL times I've wanted to go at you with some of your comments Roy but didn't want to risk a ban.

I think you have a LOT of leeway on here and a LOT of power. As a regular poster I don't have that same power.

Feel however you'd like.  Like with your comments about officers declining to fire at white shooters, however, it's all in your head. 

Here's your comment again:

Quote
We see LE (Law Enforcement) going into predominantly white (and in many cases better-off) communities and the SAME outcomes being different with NO loss of life or bullets being released.

Have you *ever* seen that?  If not, why lie about it and say you did?

roy -

At face value my comment came out wrong. I get that.

But in the OVERALL SCHEME of things you don't see why I have a STRONG concern about Law Enforcement in this country? As a Black Man with TWO Black sons??

AGAIN - at face value (and statistics be [dang]ed) my comment was wrong. But it DOES NOT cover up the FACT that MANY Blacks and people of color in this country lose trust in Law Enforcement when we see stuff like George Floyd, the outcome of Breonna Taylor, Aumaud Arbery and OTHER cases as well.

Additionally - a Black Grandfather was murdered in Iowa and his body set on fire just recently.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/us/man-found-dead-iowa-ditch-trnd/index.html
From the link you posted, there is no evidence of racial motivation in the Iowa incident. 

Quote
"The investigation has revealed no evidence to show the acts against Michael Williams were motivated by his race nor that his death was the result of a hate crime," according to a statement from the Department of Public Safety.

So why are you posting it as if it were a racial incident? 

If a black guy and a white guy get in a fight over a woman, it is a fight over a woman not a racial incident.  Even if racial slurs are said, it is still most likely just a fight over a woman.  The fight would most likely still occur if both guys were of the same race just with non-racial insults said.

Ok you have YOUR pov I have mines.

If the investigation proved otherwise then I get that.

Still won't make me any LESS uncomfortable around Law Enforcement.
The story you linked to explicitly said the investigation showed no racial motivation.  So unless further info comes to light to show otherwise, it shouldn't be suggested that it was a racially motivated incident.

Can you AT LEAST answer my previous post, though?
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1699 on: September 24, 2020, 11:57:24 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

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Taz -

I see you read that horrific link and I thank you for it.

Did you see THIS part?

Quote
"This stark and brutal murder in the national context of racial injustice has struck intense fear for safety of our Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC) colleagues, friends, and families," President Anne Harris wrote in the statement.
"We live in a predominantly white community and work in a predominantly white college. The murder of Mr. Williams is an incident that is rare in the experience of most Iowans. But for many people of color, this incident is the most recent in an accumulated history of prejudice, mistreatment, and murder," the statement said
.
I had read the article before you posted it and yes I did see that part.  I'm not sure what you want me to get out of that quote.  I haven't seen anyone on here deny the history of widespread systemic racism in the US but that is not the current state of the US.  There are certainly still racist individuals and incidents but that does not equate to system racism to me. 

What the quote indicates to me is that some black folks can't or won't objectively look at the evidence of an incident to determine whether race was actually a factor.  The bias in the black community is to focus on race even in incidents when there is no indication of a racial factor.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1700 on: September 24, 2020, 12:03:27 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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It is all sad, all around.  Yes, Fox news will play whatever scenes of vandalism or looting that they can find and play it over and over to make it seem like the country is on fire and only Trump can put out the fires.  Other media will show weeping relatives and peaceful protesters in masks, diligently following social distancing protocols, some of which feel the police should be defunded.  And there will be Russian influenced right wing agitators in the mix trying to incite the most violence and damage that they can while at the same time encouraging "defund the police" chants to create as much division as possible.  All of the above are true.

And in the end, no one will feel like justice has been served.  A totally innocent woman will still be dead and African American people will continue to feel they are not treated the same by police.  The police will still feel like they are being targeted for doing their difficult job and will continue to protect their own.  And politicians will continue to exploit the division for their personal interest.

Russia? America really wants to go back to the 1940s do they?
the NRA funds the Republicans, russian oligarchs fund much of the NRA


And the nra is a for profit organization that pretends to be a not for profit

But everything is on the up and up, right!?

That kinda sounds like a conspiracy theory. ;D
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2019/09/27/new-senate-report-alleges-nra-acted-as-foreign-asset-for-russia-before-2016-election/#24dc8faf6852

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/11/nra-russia-money-guns-516804


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/01/nra-russia-investigations-gun-lobby

Republican politicians are so unamerican that itís almost laughable

Just to try and clarify, is Rondo9 suggesting this idea that Russia is propagating misinformation (for the purpose antagonizing more division) and meddling in our elections is just a hoax?  There have  been very clear statements by just about every intelligence agency in the US and also a report from a republican majority senate committee confirming this as fact.

The avenue through the NRA is just one of the proven avenues of Russia doing this.  If you are laughing this off as a hoax and a conspiracy theory, I just don't know what to tell you.  I guess Putin did deny it.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1701 on: October 27, 2020, 01:15:04 AM »

Offline Linwood

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https://www.inquirer.com/news/west-philadelphia-police-shooting-locust-20201026.html


Philly is burning tonight over the shooting of Walter Wallace.Police say he advanced toward them with a knife. A video from a bystander shows Wallace at least 10 ft away when the officers begin shooting.

Video:


Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1702 on: October 27, 2020, 01:30:24 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

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https://www.inquirer.com/news/west-philadelphia-police-shooting-locust-20201026.html


Philly is burning tonight over the shooting of Walter Wallace.Police say he advanced toward them with a knife. A video from a bystander shows Wallace at least 10 ft away when the officers begin shooting.

Video:


10 feet is nothing.  That's 3 or 4 steps.   The video clearly shows him advancing towards the officers and the officers backing up. 

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1703 on: October 27, 2020, 01:48:59 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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https://www.inquirer.com/news/west-philadelphia-police-shooting-locust-20201026.html


Philly is burning tonight over the shooting of Walter Wallace.Police say he advanced toward them with a knife. A video from a bystander shows Wallace at least 10 ft away when the officers begin shooting.

Video:


10 feet is nothing.  That's 3 or 4 steps.   The video clearly shows him advancing towards the officers and the officers backing up.

10 feet really is nothing, literally under a second. But was the guy holding a weapon (I couldnít tell from the video)? If so, this is justified as he was clearly advancing towards them. If not, shooting him probably wasnít their only option.
I AM A CELTIC

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1704 on: October 27, 2020, 01:52:31 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

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https://www.inquirer.com/news/west-philadelphia-police-shooting-locust-20201026.html


Philly is burning tonight over the shooting of Walter Wallace.Police say he advanced toward them with a knife. A video from a bystander shows Wallace at least 10 ft away when the officers begin shooting.

Video:


10 feet is nothing.  That's 3 or 4 steps.   The video clearly shows him advancing towards the officers and the officers backing up.

10 feet really is nothing, literally under a second. But was the guy holding a weapon (I couldnít tell from the video)? If so, this is justified as he was clearly advancing towards them. If not, shooting him probably wasnít their only option.
He had a knife which is why the police were called.   

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1705 on: October 27, 2020, 02:17:33 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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https://www.inquirer.com/news/west-philadelphia-police-shooting-locust-20201026.html


Philly is burning tonight over the shooting of Walter Wallace.Police say he advanced toward them with a knife. A video from a bystander shows Wallace at least 10 ft away when the officers begin shooting.

Video:


10 feet is nothing.  That's 3 or 4 steps.   The video clearly shows him advancing towards the officers and the officers backing up.

10 feet really is nothing, literally under a second. But was the guy holding a weapon (I couldnít tell from the video)? If so, this is justified as he was clearly advancing towards them. If not, shooting him probably wasnít their only option.
He had a knife which is why the police were called.

I just donít understand how people think they can chase/follow officers around with weapons and not have severe repercussions. Especially black men who widely state they are being targeted by law enforcement.

Iím not saying this man deserves to die for what he did, but I donít understand how people canít take a step back and look at each situation to determine if itís justified or not without screaming racism. Police receive call about man with knife. Show up to scene. Man with knife comes at them. Sounds justified to me (assuming he still had knife in hand).

Regardless, Iím sure they will lose their jobs for simply doing it.
I AM A CELTIC

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1706 on: October 27, 2020, 05:24:08 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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https://www.inquirer.com/news/west-philadelphia-police-shooting-locust-20201026.html


Philly is burning tonight over the shooting of Walter Wallace.Police say he advanced toward them with a knife. A video from a bystander shows Wallace at least 10 ft away when the officers begin shooting.

Video:


10 feet is nothing.  That's 3 or 4 steps.   The video clearly shows him advancing towards the officers and the officers backing up.

10 feet really is nothing, literally under a second. But was the guy holding a weapon (I couldnít tell from the video)? If so, this is justified as he was clearly advancing towards them. If not, shooting him probably wasnít their only option.
He had a knife which is why the police were called.

I just donít understand how people think they can chase/follow officers around with weapons and not have severe repercussions. Especially black men who widely state they are being targeted by law enforcement.

Iím not saying this man deserves to die for what he did, but I donít understand how people canít take a step back and look at each situation to determine if itís justified or not without screaming racism. Police receive call about man with knife. Show up to scene. Man with knife comes at them. Sounds justified to me (assuming he still had knife in hand).

Regardless, Iím sure they will lose their jobs for simply doing it.

For perhaps the dozenth time Iíll say that the issue of racial bias and discrimination when it comes to law enforcement  should not be judged by shootings but rather by the much lower level incidents that occur with high frequency that create the cultural conditions for fear and mistrust between police and people of color.   This type of culture can grow from being watched, followed, suspected, stopped, disrespected, harassed, bullied.  It can expand into a culture marked by fear and mistrust.  Occasionally a shooting occurs and all people look at is the visual evidence and speculate who was more in the wrong.  And then draw their broad conclusions as to whether the problem is more about police or more about black or brown citizens. What is neglected is the culture that plays out a thousand times that same day that reinforces stereotypes and attitudes on both sides and creates conditions that increase the likelihood of escalated interactions, often (I would guess) with both sides playing a role in the exacerbation of the incident.  But the analysis doesnít get to root cause because focus is on the incident, the outcome, rather than the root.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 07:40:09 AM by Neurotic Guy »

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1707 on: October 27, 2020, 03:34:30 PM »

Offline Linwood

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https://www.inquirer.com/news/west-philadelphia-police-shooting-locust-20201026.html


Philly is burning tonight over the shooting of Walter Wallace.Police say he advanced toward them with a knife. A video from a bystander shows Wallace at least 10 ft away when the officers begin shooting.

Video:


10 feet is nothing.  That's 3 or 4 steps.   The video clearly shows him advancing towards the officers and the officers backing up.

10 feet really is nothing, literally under a second. But was the guy holding a weapon (I couldnít tell from the video)? If so, this is justified as he was clearly advancing towards them. If not, shooting him probably wasnít their only option.
He had a knife which is why the police were called.

I just donít understand how people think they can chase/follow officers around with weapons and not have severe repercussions. Especially black men who widely state they are being targeted by law enforcement.

Iím not saying this man deserves to die for what he did, but I donít understand how people canít take a step back and look at each situation to determine if itís justified or not without screaming racism. Police receive call about man with knife. Show up to scene. Man with knife comes at them. Sounds justified to me (assuming he still had knife in hand).

Regardless, Iím sure they will lose their jobs for simply doing it.

For perhaps the dozenth time Iíll say that the issue of racial bias and discrimination when it comes to law enforcement  should not be judged by shootings but rather by the much lower level incidents that occur with high frequency that create the cultural conditions for fear and mistrust between police and people of color.   This type of culture can grow from being watched, followed, suspected, stopped, disrespected, harassed, bullied.  It can expand into a culture marked by fear and mistrust.  Occasionally a shooting occurs and all people look at is the visual evidence and speculate who was more in the wrong.  And then draw their broad conclusions as to whether the problem is more about police or more about black or brown citizens. What is neglected is the culture that plays out a thousand times that same day that reinforces stereotypes and attitudes on both sides and creates conditions that increase the likelihood of escalated interactions, often (I would guess) with both sides playing a role in the exacerbation of the incident.  But the analysis doesnít get to root cause because focus is on the incident, the outcome, rather than the root.


Exactly. Blacks are targeted by police, they are stopped far more by police while engaged in everyday activities

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1708 on: October 27, 2020, 04:43:35 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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The PHI incident is still new with the investigations and hearsay.

It appears as if the man had a knife(?) and was approaching the officers.

I also saw some questions about why the officers didn't just tase him?

I also understand that the young man potentially was having a mental episode?

A LOT of questions and at this point not enough answers - and it will probably be like this for a while, unfortunately.

Meanwhile - you have yet ANOTHER Black Man dead from a Police Shooting......and wondering if anything could been done to de-escalate things.

what could've been done differently?

The Police Union there has stated that the officers' use of DF was authorized....on paper I can't disagree there...ON PAPER. You shouldn't approach an officer with a weapon...that is asking for trouble, unfortunately. The PU also said that the officers are distressed as well with the shooting.....but are they as distressed as the mother who watched her son get gunned down?

Was the young man having a mental episode? Was there ANOTHER way to de-escalate this rather than the outcome currently?

It is hard to rush to judgment with this being new and still having so many questions but as a Black Man this saddens me.
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #1709 on: October 27, 2020, 04:51:16 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I'm pretty sure most here are aware of NFAC - "Not F'Ing Around Coalition".

As I've read up on them they are legit and peaceful but have stated that they are attempting to protect Black Men, Women and Children in this country.

I seriously wonder if - say - NFAC - was confronting this young man would the outcome have been different? Could they have de-escalated the situation? If NFAC was embedded in the community that this tragedy happened could they have already KNOWN about the victim's issues? Talked him down without him dying?

Did the officers responding know ANYTHING about the community they just killed this young man in?

I'm not for "Defunding Police" as I've stated before on here. But as a country we need to look at OTHER WAYS of policing / protecting its citizens.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 05:40:42 PM by GreenFaith1819 »
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