Author Topic: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated  (Read 85360 times)

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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2020, 09:08:30 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

I donít have all the details, but it sounds like the Minnesota protest was larger and was violent and destructive.
One group took to the greets to protest the killing of a man by the police.
The other group took guns into the seat of government to protest emergency public health measures.
Wonder how things would have gone if the first group had done what the second did...


Small point of order here, but nobody was protesting emergency public health measures, they were protesting what they perceived as an unjust violation of individual liberty.  But this isn't the thread to discuss that topic, so I'll leave it there.

As for the 'Floyd' protests, I can't recall enough of the details to say whether the use of force against the protesters was justified or not. It is entirely possible for someone to protest for a just cause in an uncivilized manner.  Being 'right' doesn't give you carte blanche to act in a violent manner.  I don't always agree with the subject matter of protests, nor the manner of, but I always unequivocally support the right of those who feel infringed upon to make their voices heard and will never condone those who try to 'silence' civilized protests through use of force.

And for the record, I do not find simply bearing arms and occupying space in a government building to be uncivilized.  Had any of those protesters resorted to actual physical confrontation or violence, then that would have been inappropriate and wrong, but I don't recall that being the case.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2020, 09:23:23 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I know it's controversial, but he overall population would likely be better off with many fewer but higher quality police officers. When we invest power in certain people, it is appropriate for the standards to be higher.


This would be my basic proposal off the top of my head (first draft, might adjust as needed):

- All fatalities go through a citizen review board at the State level, made up of 50% executive appointed experts and 50% elected citizen advisors. If in the standard process, criminal charges against the officer are not filed, this review board determines if it should be kicked back to the department for internal discipline or go to trial by jury.
- Within the police force firearms should be restricted to a smaller percentage of more experienced and respected officers with better training. Vast majority of policing does not need firearms.
- No chasing suspects solo
- No firing on suspects running away unless it is confirmed they have already fired shots themselves (and thus are immediate danger to public).
- No arresting or subduing suspects solo unless a civilian's (not the cop's) life is imminently in danger or if the cop's life is in danger AND there is no reasonable avenue for the cop to retreat.
- No asking a person to leave their vehicle when the officer is solo. If that important, wait for backup.
- Annual review of all cops records, and automatic termination of employment if involved in any white supremacist organizations. Major problem; even beyond individually racist individuals it promotes us vs them fraternity and code of silence and acceptance for bad cops.
- If cameras are not on, Cop's statements about resisting arrest, arrest process, etc, are inadmissable in court.
- Get rid of all those "qualified immunity" standards. Cops are civilian citizens entrusted with a specific role. Have some standards and consequences.
- Cat's out of the bag, but I would love to see decommissioning of all the military surplus stuff that has trickled into police offices. Unnecessary, and ends up heightening situations and cop behavior.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2020, 10:19:07 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

I donít have all the details, but it sounds like the Minnesota protest was larger and was violent and destructive.
One group took to the greets to protest the killing of a man by the police.
The other group took guns into the seat of government to protest emergency public health measures.
Wonder how things would have gone if the first group had done what the second did...


Small point of order here, but nobody was protesting emergency public health measures, they were protesting what they perceived as an unjust violation of individual liberty.  But this isn't the thread to discuss that topic, so I'll leave it there.

As for the 'Floyd' protests, I can't recall enough of the details to say whether the use of force against the protesters was justified or not. It is entirely possible for someone to protest for a just cause in an uncivilized manner.  Being 'right' doesn't give you carte blanche to act in a violent manner.  I don't always agree with the subject matter of protests, nor the manner of, but I always unequivocally support the right of those who feel infringed upon to make their voices heard and will never condone those who try to 'silence' civilized protests through use of force.

And for the record, I do not find simply bearing arms and occupying space in a government building to be uncivilized.  Had any of those protesters resorted to actual physical confrontation or violence, then that would have been inappropriate and wrong, but I don't recall that being the case.
ďIím not protesting the speed limit, Iím protesting the undo infringement on my right to drive as fast as I wantĒ

Lol

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2020, 10:31:01 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

I donít have all the details, but it sounds like the Minnesota protest was larger and was violent and destructive.
One group took to the greets to protest the killing of a man by the police.
The other group took guns into the seat of government to protest emergency public health measures.
Wonder how things would have gone if the first group had done what the second did...

Or, if the Michigan protestors had become violent?  I expect youíd see cops in riot gear using tear gas.  I mean, we saw that in Boston after the Red Sox won the World Series.

In Michigan, the authorities showed restraint when confronted by screaming, gun wielding protesters surging against the police line.
The authorities did not show restraint, when arresting Floyd or responding to protestors throwing rocks at the precinct building.

This is the American double standard. Until we acknowledge that one race has more freedom than the others, this will continue.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52817097



« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 10:40:17 AM by arctic 3.0 »

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2020, 11:39:38 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

I donít have all the details, but it sounds like the Minnesota protest was larger and was violent and destructive.
One group took to the greets to protest the killing of a man by the police.
The other group took guns into the seat of government to protest emergency public health measures.
Wonder how things would have gone if the first group had done what the second did...


Small point of order here, but nobody was protesting emergency public health measures, they were protesting what they perceived as an unjust violation of individual liberty.  But this isn't the thread to discuss that topic, so I'll leave it there.

As for the 'Floyd' protests, I can't recall enough of the details to say whether the use of force against the protesters was justified or not. It is entirely possible for someone to protest for a just cause in an uncivilized manner.  Being 'right' doesn't give you carte blanche to act in a violent manner.  I don't always agree with the subject matter of protests, nor the manner of, but I always unequivocally support the right of those who feel infringed upon to make their voices heard and will never condone those who try to 'silence' civilized protests through use of force.

And for the record, I do not find simply bearing arms and occupying space in a government building to be uncivilized.  Had any of those protesters resorted to actual physical confrontation or violence, then that would have been inappropriate and wrong, but I don't recall that being the case.
ďIím not protesting the speed limit, Iím protesting the undo infringement on my right to drive as fast as I wantĒ

Lol

What exactly did you hope to accomplish here with such a wildly inaccurate analogy?  Show me where there has been a significant movement arguing driving is a right and that we should also have the right to drive as fast as we want.  Nobody is making that argument. And did you really think posting a childish "LOL" was going to help further your argument?  Is that some sort of attempt to bully or shame me into agreeing with you POV?  All that does is highlight your authoritarian mindset and the fact you clearly can become rather indignant when your attempts to control others is challenged.

That nonsense won't work on me, sorry.  Anyways, let's move on, it's not really pertinent to the matter of police brutality.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2020, 11:43:40 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I know it's controversial, but he overall population would likely be better off with many fewer but higher quality police officers. When we invest power in certain people, it is appropriate for the standards to be higher.


This would be my basic proposal off the top of my head (first draft, might adjust as needed):

- All fatalities go through a citizen review board at the State level, made up of 50% executive appointed experts and 50% elected citizen advisors. If in the standard process, criminal charges against the officer are not filed, this review board determines if it should be kicked back to the department for internal discipline or go to trial by jury.
- Within the police force firearms should be restricted to a smaller percentage of more experienced and respected officers with better training. Vast majority of policing does not need firearms.
- No chasing suspects solo
- No firing on suspects running away unless it is confirmed they have already fired shots themselves (and thus are immediate danger to public).
- No arresting or subduing suspects solo unless a civilian's (not the cop's) life is imminently in danger or if the cop's life is in danger AND there is no reasonable avenue for the cop to retreat.
- No asking a person to leave their vehicle when the officer is solo. If that important, wait for backup.
- Annual review of all cops records, and automatic termination of employment if involved in any white supremacist organizations. Major problem; even beyond individually racist individuals it promotes us vs them fraternity and code of silence and acceptance for bad cops.
- If cameras are not on, Cop's statements about resisting arrest, arrest process, etc, are inadmissable in court.
- Get rid of all those "qualified immunity" standards. Cops are civilian citizens entrusted with a specific role. Have some standards and consequences.
- Cat's out of the bag, but I would love to see decommissioning of all the military surplus stuff that has trickled into police offices. Unnecessary, and ends up heightening situations and cop behavior.


Some of these are good ideas, others maybe not so practical.  But this is the type of dialogue that will actually help.  People holding those in positions of authority to a high standard and clearly outlining what the standard should be.

We can talk all we want about underlying causes, but most of those will never change, and certainly will not change simply by mandating it.  We can put in place safeguards against abuse of power, however.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2020, 12:21:48 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
In Michigan, the authorities showed restraint when confronted by screaming, gun wielding protesters surging against the police line.
The authorities did not show restraint, when arresting Floyd or responding to protestors throwing rocks at the precinct building.

Yes, people in a crowd of 4000 throwing bricks and rocks and breaking windows is different in kind than a few hundred protesters holding guns (which, for whatever reason, are illegally allowed in Michiganís statehouse).

If thereís evidence that police confronted protestors aggressively before the violence and destruction, I agree with you.  But, police canít / shouldnít just stand down when protests turn into riots.
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2020, 01:05:36 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Frank Serpico wrote an excellent op-ed in Politico a few years back. He knows a thing or two about internal police corruption and the wall of silence, and has some very good ideas to fix the culture:

"1. Strengthen the selection process and psychological screening process for police recruits. Police departments are simply a microcosm of the greater society. If your screening standards encourage corrupt and forceful tendencies, you will end up with a larger concentration of these types of individuals;

2. Provide ongoing, examples-based training and simulations. Not only telling but  showing police officers how they are expected to behave and react is critical;

3. Require community involvement from police officers so they know the districts and the individuals they are policing. This will encourage empathy and understanding;

4. Enforce the laws against everyone, including police officers. When police officers do wrong, use those individuals as examples of what not to do Ė so that others know that this behavior will not be tolerated. And tell the police unions and detective endowment associations they need to keep their noses out of the justice system;

5. Support the good guys. Honest cops who tell the truth and behave in exemplary fashion should be honored, promoted and held up as strong positive examples of what it means to be a cop;

6. Last but not least, police cannot police themselves. Develop permanent, independent boards to review incidents of police corruption and brutalityóand then fund them well and support them publicly. Only this can change a culture that has existed since the beginnings of the modern police department."


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160


Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2020, 01:14:12 PM »

Offline gift

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- If cameras are not on, Cop's statements about resisting arrest, arrest process, etc, are inadmissable in court.


I like a few of your ideas, but I'll highlight this one. 'Resisting arrest' is too emphasized and individual officers have too much empowerment to use resisting arrest as justification for arrest. Your suggestion is a good start, but I'd like to go further in some way. Maybe strictly define what is considered resisting? I don't know yet. Basically, I think if resisting arrest is not seen as an option for officers, many interactions would go much differently because police would need very clear reasons for the arrest (which is the way it should be in the first place). As it is, they can always fall back on resisting as leverage and justification, at least enough to skate on their own abuse.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2020, 01:16:53 PM »

Offline gift

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3. Require community involvement from police officers so they know the districts and the individuals they are policing. This will encourage empathy and understanding;

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160

Agree with all of them, but going to highlight this one. Really integrating with the communities they serve would change everything. Not easy, but necessary.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2020, 01:58:13 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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3. Require community involvement from police officers so they know the districts and the individuals they are policing. This will encourage empathy and understanding;

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160

Agree with all of them, but going to highlight this one. Really integrating with the communities they serve would change everything. Not easy, but necessary.

I like #6 too, there need to be independent boards to oversee the police. There is way too much conflict of interest when a local DA has to prosecute a local cop. And based off evidence gathered by other local cops.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2020, 02:23:17 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

I donít have all the details, but it sounds like the Minnesota protest was larger and was violent and destructive.
One group took to the greets to protest the killing of a man by the police.
The other group took guns into the seat of government to protest emergency public health measures.
Wonder how things would have gone if the first group had done what the second did...


Small point of order here, but nobody was protesting emergency public health measures, they were protesting what they perceived as an unjust violation of individual liberty.  But this isn't the thread to discuss that topic, so I'll leave it there.

As for the 'Floyd' protests, I can't recall enough of the details to say whether the use of force against the protesters was justified or not. It is entirely possible for someone to protest for a just cause in an uncivilized manner.  Being 'right' doesn't give you carte blanche to act in a violent manner.  I don't always agree with the subject matter of protests, nor the manner of, but I always unequivocally support the right of those who feel infringed upon to make their voices heard and will never condone those who try to 'silence' civilized protests through use of force.

And for the record, I do not find simply bearing arms and occupying space in a government building to be uncivilized.  Had any of those protesters resorted to actual physical confrontation or violence, then that would have been inappropriate and wrong, but I don't recall that being the case.
ďIím not protesting the speed limit, Iím protesting the undo infringement on my right to drive as fast as I wantĒ

Lol

What exactly did you hope to accomplish here with such a wildly inaccurate analogy?  Show me where there has been a significant movement arguing driving is a right and that we should also have the right to drive as fast as we want.  Nobody is making that argument. And did you really think posting a childish "LOL" was going to help further your argument?  Is that some sort of attempt to bully or shame me into agreeing with you POV?  All that does is highlight your authoritarian mindset and the fact you clearly can become rather indignant when your attempts to control others is challenged.

That nonsense won't work on me, sorry.  Anyways, let's move on, it's not really pertinent to the matter of police brutality.

Alright, let me put it another way.
ďIím not protesting emergency public health measures, Iím protesting to end the restrictions put in place in the emergency public health measuresĒ

Thatís how I read your ďpoint of orderĒ

Also, if you knew anything about me, the way I was raised, the way I choose to live my life, the work I do, the way I am raising my child, you wouldnít use the word authoritarian to describe me.
But thatís the internet for you.



Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2020, 02:37:18 PM »

Offline blink

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I know it's controversial, but he overall population would likely be better off with many fewer but higher quality police officers. When we invest power in certain people, it is appropriate for the standards to be higher.


This would be my basic proposal off the top of my head (first draft, might adjust as needed):

- All fatalities go through a citizen review board at the State level, made up of 50% executive appointed experts and 50% elected citizen advisors. If in the standard process, criminal charges against the officer are not filed, this review board determines if it should be kicked back to the department for internal discipline or go to trial by jury.
- Within the police force firearms should be restricted to a smaller percentage of more experienced and respected officers with better training. Vast majority of policing does not need firearms.
- No chasing suspects solo
- No firing on suspects running away unless it is confirmed they have already fired shots themselves (and thus are immediate danger to public).
- No arresting or subduing suspects solo unless a civilian's (not the cop's) life is imminently in danger or if the cop's life is in danger AND there is no reasonable avenue for the cop to retreat.
- No asking a person to leave their vehicle when the officer is solo. If that important, wait for backup.
- Annual review of all cops records, and automatic termination of employment if involved in any white supremacist organizations. Major problem; even beyond individually racist individuals it promotes us vs them fraternity and code of silence and acceptance for bad cops.
- If cameras are not on, Cop's statements about resisting arrest, arrest process, etc, are inadmissable in court.
- Get rid of all those "qualified immunity" standards. Cops are civilian citizens entrusted with a specific role. Have some standards and consequences.
- Cat's out of the bag, but I would love to see decommissioning of all the military surplus stuff that has trickled into police offices. Unnecessary, and ends up heightening situations and cop behavior.

what a great list of ideas and out of the box thinking.
TP!

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2020, 03:38:59 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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You are right, it canít be tolerated.
But what are we going to do about it?

Serious justice system reform to end the criminalization of skin tone and poverty?

Reducing guns on the streets so police donít feel like any encounter with the public could end up getting them shot?

Significant investment in education and anti poverty programs to reduce economic disparity?

Since these kind of initiatives are roundly dismissed as radical/socialist/liberal by the people in charge (and their faithful media arm) I suspect not much will happen.

Turning this into talking points to meet an agenda just lets reasonable people dismiss this as another trumped up issue to feed liberal outrage.

Each case is fact specific.  Here, an officer kneeled on the neck of a dying (and then dead) man for several minutes while his partner flexed for the crowd.  Thatís got nothing to do with your agenda, though.
We have an absolute incapacity to address these issues.
That is not going to change unless we name what is preventing us from fixing this.

Those things have nothing to do with this.

Thereís no indication that this was a gun crime or that officers were scared about guns.  The victim wasnít targeted because he was black, but rather because he in all likelihood was a criminal.  Billions and billions have been invested into the educational system.

And, using these red herrings just leads others to come back with their own talking points.

Itís why Black Lives Matter is unsuccessful in gaining mainstream acceptance.  For every Eric Garner, protestors equally support a thug like Michael Brown.

Just focus on the incident.  Itís okay to pick and choose, giving both police and suspect a fair look.  Here, even assuming the worst, a resisting criminal was appropriately placed in handcuffs, and then was essentially killed through indifference to human life as an officer kneeled on the neck of a passed out, handcuffed man for several minutes.

The cops failed.  The managers who promoted kneeling on somebodyís neck failed.  The chiefs who donít hold their men accountable and who tolerate the thin blue line failed.  Focus on individuals, and come down hard on officers who cross the line hard EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Arguing that skin tone is criminalized is not only inaccurate, but itís counterproductive.  The vast, vast majority of criminals are incarcerated because they are in fact guilty.  Making the majority of criminals into victims will never win public sympathy.
Geez Louis Roy, have you not reviewed or studied the distribution of the prison population, deaths inflected by police, stop and frisks, and more broken down by race?

By pointing only to individual cases and not looking for larger trends it becomes impossible to detect and the remedy larger social problems.
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2020, 03:55:42 PM »

Offline Moranis

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You are right, it canít be tolerated.
But what are we going to do about it?

Serious justice system reform to end the criminalization of skin tone and poverty?

Reducing guns on the streets so police donít feel like any encounter with the public could end up getting them shot?

Significant investment in education and anti poverty programs to reduce economic disparity?

Since these kind of initiatives are roundly dismissed as radical/socialist/liberal by the people in charge (and their faithful media arm) I suspect not much will happen.

Turning this into talking points to meet an agenda just lets reasonable people dismiss this as another trumped up issue to feed liberal outrage.

Each case is fact specific.  Here, an officer kneeled on the neck of a dying (and then dead) man for several minutes while his partner flexed for the crowd.  Thatís got nothing to do with your agenda, though.
We have an absolute incapacity to address these issues.
That is not going to change unless we name what is preventing us from fixing this.

Those things have nothing to do with this.

Thereís no indication that this was a gun crime or that officers were scared about guns.  The victim wasnít targeted because he was black, but rather because he in all likelihood was a criminal.  Billions and billions have been invested into the educational system.

And, using these red herrings just leads others to come back with their own talking points.

Itís why Black Lives Matter is unsuccessful in gaining mainstream acceptance.  For every Eric Garner, protestors equally support a thug like Michael Brown.

Just focus on the incident.  Itís okay to pick and choose, giving both police and suspect a fair look.  Here, even assuming the worst, a resisting criminal was appropriately placed in handcuffs, and then was essentially killed through indifference to human life as an officer kneeled on the neck of a passed out, handcuffed man for several minutes.

The cops failed.  The managers who promoted kneeling on somebodyís neck failed.  The chiefs who donít hold their men accountable and who tolerate the thin blue line failed.  Focus on individuals, and come down hard on officers who cross the line hard EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Arguing that skin tone is criminalized is not only inaccurate, but itís counterproductive.  The vast, vast majority of criminals are incarcerated because they are in fact guilty.  Making the majority of criminals into victims will never win public sympathy.
Geez Louis Roy, have you not reviewed or studied the distribution of the prison population, deaths inflected by police, stop and frisks, and more broken down by race?

By pointing only to individual cases and not looking for larger trends it becomes impossible to detect and the remedy larger social problems.
The two things aren't necessarily related.  I mean police can disproportionately focus on blacks, but at the same time the people in the prisons might actually be guilty of the crime they are in prison for.  Now sure, the 30 year old white women might not get questioned like an 18 year old black male might for the exact same conduct, but it also doesn't mean that conduct isn't a crime. 
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