Author Topic: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated  (Read 85354 times)

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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2020, 09:12:48 PM »

Offline liam

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This was heartbreaking. Power without compassion is tyranny.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2020, 09:19:57 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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You are right, it canít be tolerated.
But what are we going to do about it?

Serious justice system reform to end the criminalization of skin tone and poverty?

Reducing guns on the streets so police donít feel like any encounter with the public could end up getting them shot?

Significant investment in education and anti poverty programs to reduce economic disparity?

Since these kind of initiatives are roundly dismissed as radical/socialist/liberal by the people in charge (and their faithful media arm) I suspect not much will happen.

Turning this into talking points to meet an agenda just lets reasonable people dismiss this as another trumped up issue to feed liberal outrage.

Each case is fact specific.  Here, an officer kneeled on the neck of a dying (and then dead) man for several minutes while his partner flexed for the crowd.  Thatís got nothing to do with your agenda, though.
We have an absolute incapacity to address these issues.
That is not going to change unless we name what is preventing us from fixing this.

Those things have nothing to do with this.

Thereís no indication that this was a gun crime or that officers were scared about guns.  The victim wasnít targeted because he was black, but rather because he in all likelihood was a criminal.  Billions and billions have been invested into the educational system.

And, using these red herrings just leads others to come back with their own talking points.

Itís why Black Lives Matter is unsuccessful in gaining mainstream acceptance.  For every Eric Garner, protestors equally support a thug like Michael Brown.

Just focus on the incident.  Itís okay to pick and choose, giving both police and suspect a fair look.  Here, even assuming the worst, a resisting criminal was appropriately placed in handcuffs, and then was essentially killed through indifference to human life as an officer kneeled on the neck of a passed out, handcuffed man for several minutes.

The cops failed.  The managers who promoted kneeling on somebodyís neck failed.  The chiefs who donít hold their men accountable and who tolerate the thin blue line failed.  Focus on individuals, and come down hard on officers who cross the line hard EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Arguing that skin tone is criminalized is not only inaccurate, but itís counterproductive.  The vast, vast majority of criminals are incarcerated because they are in fact guilty.  Making the majority of criminals into victims will never win public sympathy.

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Racism isn't individually based. It's systemic oppression and dehumanization. It's the systems that tell White police officers that it's okay to use deadly force on non-violent offenders because of their skin tone. Is this was a one-off, you might have a point. Hell, the Cooper situation could've ended up in a similar fashion because that woman decided to weaponize her "white fragility" assuming that the man recording her would be scared off by her specifically mentioning that it was an African-American bothering her. And refusal to accept that this is not about that cop's character as an individual but about a system that continually props up and allows a group to be racially profiled and disadvantaged means the overall problem doesn't get addressed. It's not "a few bad apples". The system is rotten to the core.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2020, 09:29:50 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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I usually defend police, but how does something like this happen?

Quote
On Tuesday morning, a video surfaced showing a police officer holding his knee on a Black manís neck right before he died. The incident took place on a sidewalk in Minneapolis, where the man ó who has since been identified as George Floyd ó was being detained by officers while allegedly resisting arrest. However, multiple pedestrians reported that officers were using excessive force, with several people asking them to stop, in what has now amounted to an FBI investigation of Floydís death.

The video shows officers kneeling on the manís neck, cutting off his oxygen, for at least seven minutes of the ten minutes of video. Floyd can be heard repeatedly saying, ďI canít breathe,Ē as the officer continues to put physical pressure on him. The same words were used by Eric Garner, who died of police brutality in New York in 2014. Five minutes into the video, the man is lying on the ground, motionless, with the police officerís knee still on his neck. Onlookers can be heard saying, ďCheck his pulse.Ē Seven minutes into the video, an ambulance arrives, and an EMT does a pulse check, although the officer still has the man pinned to the ground.

Darnella Frazier, who witnessed the incident and recorded the video on her phone, says that she began taking a video from the moment Floyd was placed in handcuffs. She then posted it on Facebook for proof.

According to the police, the incident happened after 8 p.m. on Monday, May 25, after someone placed a 911 call to report a man who attempted to forge a check, mentioning that the suspect was in a nearby parking lot and seemingly under the influence.

After being ordered to step away from the vehicle, Floyd reportedly resisted. According to a statement from John Elder, spokesman for the Minneapolis police, ďHe was ordered to step from the car Ö after he got out he physically resisted officers Ö officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and the officers noticed the male was going into medical distress.Ē The police have claimed that no weapons were used and body cameras were turned on during the incident.



Why wasnít the suspect placed into a vehicle long before he passed out, let alone died?  There are at least two other officers there.  Why didnít they intervene?
This case deserves a manslaughter charge and serious jail time.  I donít care if he resisted.  Maybe the dude was a dirtbag, it doesnít matter.  He was a suspect in a non-violent crime who was long since defenseless at the time of death.

I know the headlines will be about race, but itís at least equally about use of force, as well as a mentality of ďus against themĒ and backing other officers no matter what. 

(Full disclosure:  I was once arrested and taken to the ground by several officers for ďdisorderly conductĒ.  My crime?  Telling an officer ó calmly, without profanity of physical contact ó that he had no right to put his hands on me.  Charges were dropped, but I got several scrapes and bruises because some cop didnít like me questioning his illegal police tactics.  Most cops are decent.  Some are bullies with a badge who are giving huge amounts of deference by the system.)

good post, TP.  I agree that most cops are decent, but there seems to be a breakdown in training all across the country that has allowed a militant bully attitude to become more and more prevalent pretty much everywhere.  What used to be honorable, 'protect and serve' seems to have gotten lost a bit.  It seems to be getting worse.  Maybe it was always worse, and just new technology, cell phone video, better evidence is exposing it more I dunno.  It just sucks.
I find that somewhat hard to agree with.

I almost wrote in the following sentence "but the hard thing is to know what 'most' is and is that good enough?"
but I got a bit lazy.  I am not trying to excuse the bad cops.  I guess I just want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first.
It is a really hard job.  They are people, and they have a lot of problems just like all of us.

is it ok just to have say 60% of cops be decent.  Obviously not.  There needs to be a lot more training for cops that deals with de-escalating conflict and probably needs to be a lot more personality trait screening.  Won't catch all of the bad ones, but maybe it will save some innocent people.

Yes, I agree.  I stand by what I said, most cops are good people trying to do a good job.  But, a certain percentage are lazy, a certain percentage are crooked, too large of a percentage are violent, etc.  Even some of the decent ones can be arrogant or close minded.

Iím friends with a lot of cops, probation officers and correctional officers. They all know who the problems are, but even the best ones wonít break rank publicly.

You can still be a good person trying to do a good job and STILL participate in racism. In fact, I suspect that's most police officers. This issue has nothing to do with character. And what was on that video has anything to do with laziness, crookedness or a predilection toward violent behavior.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2020, 09:36:44 PM »

Offline heyvik

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It wasn't one police officer on his neck.....and the Asian officer standing watch.

THERE WERE 2 OTHER OFFICERS PUTTING PRESSURE ON HIS BACK AND LEGS!!!

A video has surfaced from the other side of the street showing 2 other officers holding either kneeing him or keeping pressure on him which is why he died. The officer on his neck was not solely responsible for his death.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2020, 09:51:05 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I usually defend police, but how does something like this happen?

Quote
On Tuesday morning, a video surfaced showing a police officer holding his knee on a Black manís neck right before he died. The incident took place on a sidewalk in Minneapolis, where the man ó who has since been identified as George Floyd ó was being detained by officers while allegedly resisting arrest. However, multiple pedestrians reported that officers were using excessive force, with several people asking them to stop, in what has now amounted to an FBI investigation of Floydís death.

The video shows officers kneeling on the manís neck, cutting off his oxygen, for at least seven minutes of the ten minutes of video. Floyd can be heard repeatedly saying, ďI canít breathe,Ē as the officer continues to put physical pressure on him. The same words were used by Eric Garner, who died of police brutality in New York in 2014. Five minutes into the video, the man is lying on the ground, motionless, with the police officerís knee still on his neck. Onlookers can be heard saying, ďCheck his pulse.Ē Seven minutes into the video, an ambulance arrives, and an EMT does a pulse check, although the officer still has the man pinned to the ground.

Darnella Frazier, who witnessed the incident and recorded the video on her phone, says that she began taking a video from the moment Floyd was placed in handcuffs. She then posted it on Facebook for proof.

According to the police, the incident happened after 8 p.m. on Monday, May 25, after someone placed a 911 call to report a man who attempted to forge a check, mentioning that the suspect was in a nearby parking lot and seemingly under the influence.

After being ordered to step away from the vehicle, Floyd reportedly resisted. According to a statement from John Elder, spokesman for the Minneapolis police, ďHe was ordered to step from the car Ö after he got out he physically resisted officers Ö officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and the officers noticed the male was going into medical distress.Ē The police have claimed that no weapons were used and body cameras were turned on during the incident.



Why wasnít the suspect placed into a vehicle long before he passed out, let alone died?  There are at least two other officers there.  Why didnít they intervene?
This case deserves a manslaughter charge and serious jail time.  I donít care if he resisted.  Maybe the dude was a dirtbag, it doesnít matter.  He was a suspect in a non-violent crime who was long since defenseless at the time of death.

I know the headlines will be about race, but itís at least equally about use of force, as well as a mentality of ďus against themĒ and backing other officers no matter what. 

(Full disclosure:  I was once arrested and taken to the ground by several officers for ďdisorderly conductĒ.  My crime?  Telling an officer ó calmly, without profanity of physical contact ó that he had no right to put his hands on me.  Charges were dropped, but I got several scrapes and bruises because some cop didnít like me questioning his illegal police tactics.  Most cops are decent.  Some are bullies with a badge who are giving huge amounts of deference by the system.)

good post, TP.  I agree that most cops are decent, but there seems to be a breakdown in training all across the country that has allowed a militant bully attitude to become more and more prevalent pretty much everywhere.  What used to be honorable, 'protect and serve' seems to have gotten lost a bit.  It seems to be getting worse.  Maybe it was always worse, and just new technology, cell phone video, better evidence is exposing it more I dunno.  It just sucks.
I find that somewhat hard to agree with.

I almost wrote in the following sentence "but the hard thing is to know what 'most' is and is that good enough?"
but I got a bit lazy.  I am not trying to excuse the bad cops.  I guess I just want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first.
It is a really hard job.  They are people, and they have a lot of problems just like all of us.

is it ok just to have say 60% of cops be decent.  Obviously not.  There needs to be a lot more training for cops that deals with de-escalating conflict and probably needs to be a lot more personality trait screening.  Won't catch all of the bad ones, but maybe it will save some innocent people.

Yes, I agree.  I stand by what I said, most cops are good people trying to do a good job.  But, a certain percentage are lazy, a certain percentage are crooked, too large of a percentage are violent, etc.  Even some of the decent ones can be arrogant or close minded.

Iím friends with a lot of cops, probation officers and correctional officers. They all know who the problems are, but even the best ones wonít break rank publicly.

You can still be a good person trying to do a good job and STILL participate in racism. In fact, I suspect that's most police officers. This issue has nothing to do with character. And what was on that video has anything to do with laziness, crookedness or a predilection toward violent behavior.

So what do we blame when whites are victims of brutality?  When you look at things like unarmed shootings by police per violent crime, whites are actually disproportionately targeted.

Race isnít the answer to every problematic question.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 10:03:08 PM by Roy H. »
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2020, 10:04:34 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I feel so bad for that guy watching that video...nobody should ever be treated that way, regardless of race or whether or not he's guilty or innocent. He was a human being.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2020, 10:05:17 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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It wasn't one police officer on his neck.....and the Asian officer standing watch.

THERE WERE 2 OTHER OFFICERS PUTTING PRESSURE ON HIS BACK AND LEGS!!!

A video has surfaced from the other side of the street showing 2 other officers holding either kneeing him or keeping pressure on him which is why he died. The officer on his neck was not solely responsible for his death.

Truth.

This is not about one officer gone rogue or even 4 officers who are bad people. The system tells them that when they see dark skin it's okay to treat them like savages...even after they are cuffed, even after they are subdued even after they manage to whimper out that their neck hurts and that they can't breathe...even after they are unconscious, they are not humans worthy of even a modicum of dignity.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2020, 10:24:07 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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I usually defend police, but how does something like this happen?

Quote
On Tuesday morning, a video surfaced showing a police officer holding his knee on a Black manís neck right before he died. The incident took place on a sidewalk in Minneapolis, where the man ó who has since been identified as George Floyd ó was being detained by officers while allegedly resisting arrest. However, multiple pedestrians reported that officers were using excessive force, with several people asking them to stop, in what has now amounted to an FBI investigation of Floydís death.

The video shows officers kneeling on the manís neck, cutting off his oxygen, for at least seven minutes of the ten minutes of video. Floyd can be heard repeatedly saying, ďI canít breathe,Ē as the officer continues to put physical pressure on him. The same words were used by Eric Garner, who died of police brutality in New York in 2014. Five minutes into the video, the man is lying on the ground, motionless, with the police officerís knee still on his neck. Onlookers can be heard saying, ďCheck his pulse.Ē Seven minutes into the video, an ambulance arrives, and an EMT does a pulse check, although the officer still has the man pinned to the ground.

Darnella Frazier, who witnessed the incident and recorded the video on her phone, says that she began taking a video from the moment Floyd was placed in handcuffs. She then posted it on Facebook for proof.

According to the police, the incident happened after 8 p.m. on Monday, May 25, after someone placed a 911 call to report a man who attempted to forge a check, mentioning that the suspect was in a nearby parking lot and seemingly under the influence.

After being ordered to step away from the vehicle, Floyd reportedly resisted. According to a statement from John Elder, spokesman for the Minneapolis police, ďHe was ordered to step from the car Ö after he got out he physically resisted officers Ö officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and the officers noticed the male was going into medical distress.Ē The police have claimed that no weapons were used and body cameras were turned on during the incident.



Why wasnít the suspect placed into a vehicle long before he passed out, let alone died?  There are at least two other officers there.  Why didnít they intervene?
This case deserves a manslaughter charge and serious jail time.  I donít care if he resisted.  Maybe the dude was a dirtbag, it doesnít matter.  He was a suspect in a non-violent crime who was long since defenseless at the time of death.

I know the headlines will be about race, but itís at least equally about use of force, as well as a mentality of ďus against themĒ and backing other officers no matter what. 

(Full disclosure:  I was once arrested and taken to the ground by several officers for ďdisorderly conductĒ.  My crime?  Telling an officer ó calmly, without profanity of physical contact ó that he had no right to put his hands on me.  Charges were dropped, but I got several scrapes and bruises because some cop didnít like me questioning his illegal police tactics.  Most cops are decent.  Some are bullies with a badge who are giving huge amounts of deference by the system.)

good post, TP.  I agree that most cops are decent, but there seems to be a breakdown in training all across the country that has allowed a militant bully attitude to become more and more prevalent pretty much everywhere.  What used to be honorable, 'protect and serve' seems to have gotten lost a bit.  It seems to be getting worse.  Maybe it was always worse, and just new technology, cell phone video, better evidence is exposing it more I dunno.  It just sucks.
I find that somewhat hard to agree with.

I almost wrote in the following sentence "but the hard thing is to know what 'most' is and is that good enough?"
but I got a bit lazy.  I am not trying to excuse the bad cops.  I guess I just want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first.
It is a really hard job.  They are people, and they have a lot of problems just like all of us.

is it ok just to have say 60% of cops be decent.  Obviously not.  There needs to be a lot more training for cops that deals with de-escalating conflict and probably needs to be a lot more personality trait screening.  Won't catch all of the bad ones, but maybe it will save some innocent people.

Yes, I agree.  I stand by what I said, most cops are good people trying to do a good job.  But, a certain percentage are lazy, a certain percentage are crooked, too large of a percentage are violent, etc.  Even some of the decent ones can be arrogant or close minded.

Iím friends with a lot of cops, probation officers and correctional officers. They all know who the problems are, but even the best ones wonít break rank publicly.

You can still be a good person trying to do a good job and STILL participate in racism. In fact, I suspect that's most police officers. This issue has nothing to do with character. And what was on that video has anything to do with laziness, crookedness or a predilection toward violent behavior.

So what do we blame when whites are victims of brutality?  When you look at things like unarmed shootings by police per violent crime, whites are actually disproportionately targeted.

Race isnít the answer to every problematic question.

Spoken like someone who has the privilege to not have to worry about how his skin will be weaponized against him. The irony surrounding "race" is that it's a weapon most effective when people try to mitigate its utility. You can't redirect an argument with "whatabout-ism". Whatver brutalities whites have ever faced, they certainly have not been because of their skin tone because they are the dominant social hierarchy. They are the default. When you referred to "mainstream" earlier in regard to the BLM movement, we're talking about white hegemonic middle to upper class. That's how it has always been here. And anything seen as a threat to their authority gets dealt with harshly. That's what we saw in this video. We cannot turn a blind eye to race like it doesn't matter. That's just naive. If you don't see race, you won't recognize racism when it happens. And if you can't recognize it, you can't address it. And then we're just participants. We're not conscientious objectors. We're silent co-conspirators.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2020, 11:23:46 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Written today, about another  indecent, but I feel it adds texture to what I said earlier re: our inability to make change.

ď What the Amy Cooper situation reveals to me is what instances of racism in America always reveal: Thereís a level of self-examination and self-awareness that white people are not doing that they must do. Thereís something that white people, even the ones who believe that they hold no biases, that they wield no power, must admit to themselves and begin to unpack. They are complicit ó and even participatory ó in the system of white supremacy. Individual white people may not believe they are, but their ability to tap into that system is always within reach.Ē

https://apple.news/Anu8KvIJRSxeQk0vPTBQrpg

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2020, 01:04:11 AM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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Written today, about another  indecent, but I feel it adds texture to what I said earlier re: our inability to make change.

ď What the Amy Cooper situation reveals to me is what instances of racism in America always reveal: Thereís a level of self-examination and self-awareness that white people are not doing that they must do. Thereís something that white people, even the ones who believe that they hold no biases, that they wield no power, must admit to themselves and begin to unpack. They are complicit ó and even participatory ó in the system of white supremacy. Individual white people may not believe they are, but their ability to tap into that system is always within reach.Ē

https://apple.news/Anu8KvIJRSxeQk0vPTBQrpg

So much all of this but the bolded part is what makes the Cooper incident even more frightening than what happened to Floyd. Those 4 officers were in positions of authority and they abused that authority to terrifying results because of a system that frames people of color in a certain way.

Amy Cooper managed to tap into that power without even having any actual authority to wield it. Even absent the police, the threat of power is accessible in a moment's notice and can be used to escalate a light disagreement into an incredibly dangerous situation very quickly. Christian Cooper could've been Floyd...EASILY.
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2020, 01:56:27 AM »

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police can’t be tolerated
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2020, 05:22:30 AM »

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.
At least no one was hurt during that incident, the double standard for this sort of stuff in where I live is absolutely mind-blowing.
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2020, 08:28:37 AM »

Online Roy H.

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

I donít have all the details, but it sounds like the Minnesota protest was larger and was violent and destructive.  Smashing windows, graffiti, throwing rocks and bricks.
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Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2020, 08:33:48 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

I donít have all the details, but it sounds like the Minnesota protest was larger and was violent and destructive.
One group took to the streets to protest the killing of a man by the police.
The other group took guns into the seat of government to protest emergency public health measures.
Wonder how things would have gone if the first group had done what the second did...
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:48:22 AM by arctic 3.0 »

Re: The latest homicide at the hands of police canít be tolerated
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2020, 08:50:03 AM »

Online Roy H.

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So you mean to tell me rubber bullets and tear gas were being used during a protest for the death of George Floyd, but nobody batted an eye when white men stormed the capital in Michigan with M16's and assault rifles while protesting? Where's the same energy?

No wonder other countries laugh at America, a complete joke.

I donít have all the details, but it sounds like the Minnesota protest was larger and was violent and destructive.
One group took to the greets to protest the killing of a man by the police.
The other group took guns into the seat of government to protest emergency public health measures.
Wonder how things would have gone if the first group had done what the second did...

Or, if the Michigan protestors had become violent?  I expect youíd see cops in riot gear using tear gas.  I mean, we saw that in Boston after the Red Sox won the World Series.
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