Author Topic: Drafts after the 21st century draft?  (Read 9760 times)

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Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2020, 11:47:48 PM »

Online gouki88

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I donít really have concerns about having a wide field in terms of years (60ís - now), as I kind of like the idea of having to do some research a bit deeper. Maybe thatís just because I have lots of spare time...
We did one of those not that long ago.  We usually like to do the wide open fields with quite a few years in between and then do more focused drafts for a few years.  You really have to drill down benches if you limit the field more.  Now if you put restrictions on the wide open field, I think that could work.  Like no more than 2-3 players per decade, that would likely work pretty well as invariably you would have to pick players from the older generations and wouldn't have an overload on more modern players.  The 80's & 90's would also work pretty well as there are a lot of interesting ways you could build teams with a lot of quality players to choose from (or a 50's, 60's, and 70's).  No one seems to like my no top 5 pick idea.  I really think that would be a much greater exercise of team building given the significant reduction of super duper stars that would be in it (every team would still have 1 or maybe 2 such players, but they wouldn't last for like 4 or 5 rounds like they do in a more open field).
The no top 5 picks draft actually sounds like a cool idea. I just checked my own personal top 20 list, and that draft would only leave around 5-ish of the players. Definitely help narrow the field.
It would definitely help narrow the field, and it could most certainly be interesting, but I think whoever got Bird would have a monumental advantage. Both because he's a top-3 peak of all time player drafted outside the top-5, and he's probably the most individually talented Celtic of all time - he also happens to be fresh in the memory of many here.

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2020, 03:39:52 AM »

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I don’t really have concerns about having a wide field in terms of years (60’s - now), as I kind of like the idea of having to do some research a bit deeper. Maybe that’s just because I have lots of spare time...
We did one of those not that long ago.  We usually like to do the wide open fields with quite a few years in between and then do more focused drafts for a few years.  You really have to drill down benches if you limit the field more.  Now if you put restrictions on the wide open field, I think that could work.  Like no more than 2-3 players per decade, that would likely work pretty well as invariably you would have to pick players from the older generations and wouldn't have an overload on more modern players.  The 80's & 90's would also work pretty well as there are a lot of interesting ways you could build teams with a lot of quality players to choose from (or a 50's, 60's, and 70's).  No one seems to like my no top 5 pick idea.  I really think that would be a much greater exercise of team building given the significant reduction of super duper stars that would be in it (every team would still have 1 or maybe 2 such players, but they wouldn't last for like 4 or 5 rounds like they do in a more open field).
The no top 5 picks draft actually sounds like a cool idea. I just checked my own personal top 20 list, and that draft would only leave around 5-ish of the players. Definitely help narrow the field.
It would definitely help narrow the field, and it could most certainly be interesting, but I think whoever got Bird would have a monumental advantage. Both because he's a top-3 peak of all time player drafted outside the top-5, and he's probably the most individually talented Celtic of all time - he also happens to be fresh in the memory of many here.
Who do you have in your top 3 besides Bird? Just curious, I don't view his peak as a top 5 peak (it's jockeying for tenth with a bunch of players imo) but I always like to hear about how do people evaluate ATGs.

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2020, 04:22:10 AM »

Online gouki88

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I donít really have concerns about having a wide field in terms of years (60ís - now), as I kind of like the idea of having to do some research a bit deeper. Maybe thatís just because I have lots of spare time...
We did one of those not that long ago.  We usually like to do the wide open fields with quite a few years in between and then do more focused drafts for a few years.  You really have to drill down benches if you limit the field more.  Now if you put restrictions on the wide open field, I think that could work.  Like no more than 2-3 players per decade, that would likely work pretty well as invariably you would have to pick players from the older generations and wouldn't have an overload on more modern players.  The 80's & 90's would also work pretty well as there are a lot of interesting ways you could build teams with a lot of quality players to choose from (or a 50's, 60's, and 70's).  No one seems to like my no top 5 pick idea.  I really think that would be a much greater exercise of team building given the significant reduction of super duper stars that would be in it (every team would still have 1 or maybe 2 such players, but they wouldn't last for like 4 or 5 rounds like they do in a more open field).
The no top 5 picks draft actually sounds like a cool idea. I just checked my own personal top 20 list, and that draft would only leave around 5-ish of the players. Definitely help narrow the field.
It would definitely help narrow the field, and it could most certainly be interesting, but I think whoever got Bird would have a monumental advantage. Both because he's a top-3 peak of all time player drafted outside the top-5, and he's probably the most individually talented Celtic of all time - he also happens to be fresh in the memory of many here.
Who do you have in your top 3 besides Bird? Just curious, I don't view his peak as a top 5 peak (it's jockeying for tenth with a bunch of players imo) but I always like to hear about how do people evaluate ATGs.
I have him alongside Kareem and MJ. LeBron, Wilt, Bill, TD, & KG right behind them all jockeying for top 5. However, I realise I could be overrating Larry because he wore green. Which would probably be similar to others, hence my apprehension about a top-5 pick exclusive draft.

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2020, 08:05:22 AM »

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I don’t really have concerns about having a wide field in terms of years (60’s - now), as I kind of like the idea of having to do some research a bit deeper. Maybe that’s just because I have lots of spare time...
We did one of those not that long ago.  We usually like to do the wide open fields with quite a few years in between and then do more focused drafts for a few years.  You really have to drill down benches if you limit the field more.  Now if you put restrictions on the wide open field, I think that could work.  Like no more than 2-3 players per decade, that would likely work pretty well as invariably you would have to pick players from the older generations and wouldn't have an overload on more modern players.  The 80's & 90's would also work pretty well as there are a lot of interesting ways you could build teams with a lot of quality players to choose from (or a 50's, 60's, and 70's).  No one seems to like my no top 5 pick idea.  I really think that would be a much greater exercise of team building given the significant reduction of super duper stars that would be in it (every team would still have 1 or maybe 2 such players, but they wouldn't last for like 4 or 5 rounds like they do in a more open field).
The no top 5 picks draft actually sounds like a cool idea. I just checked my own personal top 20 list, and that draft would only leave around 5-ish of the players. Definitely help narrow the field.
It would definitely help narrow the field, and it could most certainly be interesting, but I think whoever got Bird would have a monumental advantage. Both because he's a top-3 peak of all time player drafted outside the top-5, and he's probably the most individually talented Celtic of all time - he also happens to be fresh in the memory of many here.
Who do you have in your top 3 besides Bird? Just curious, I don't view his peak as a top 5 peak (it's jockeying for tenth with a bunch of players imo) but I always like to hear about how do people evaluate ATGs.
I have him alongside Kareem and MJ. LeBron, Wilt, Bill, TD, & KG right behind them all jockeying for top 5. However, I realise I could be overrating Larry because he wore green. Which would probably be similar to others, hence my apprehension about a top-5 pick exclusive draft.
Ah alright. And fair point about a top-5 pick exclusive draft. As for my top peaks of all time, I have Bird duking it out with Curry/Duncan/Wilt/Russell (slightly above him) and Robinson (around him). Magic's slightly behind IMO, but he's still in the mix due to his fantastic offence and impact metrics.

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2020, 08:11:19 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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If you think Bird was an around 10th best or outside the top 10 best ever, you must not have lived through and experienced the era. Here is how good Bird was:

In a game in 1986, he was bored so decided to tell the media he was going to play left-handed because he needed to save his right hand for the Lakers later that week. So Bird played the game mostly left-handed and put up a 47/14/10 triple double.....left handed.

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2020, 08:32:12 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I donít really have concerns about having a wide field in terms of years (60ís - now), as I kind of like the idea of having to do some research a bit deeper. Maybe thatís just because I have lots of spare time...
We did one of those not that long ago.  We usually like to do the wide open fields with quite a few years in between and then do more focused drafts for a few years.  You really have to drill down benches if you limit the field more.  Now if you put restrictions on the wide open field, I think that could work.  Like no more than 2-3 players per decade, that would likely work pretty well as invariably you would have to pick players from the older generations and wouldn't have an overload on more modern players.  The 80's & 90's would also work pretty well as there are a lot of interesting ways you could build teams with a lot of quality players to choose from (or a 50's, 60's, and 70's).  No one seems to like my no top 5 pick idea.  I really think that would be a much greater exercise of team building given the significant reduction of super duper stars that would be in it (every team would still have 1 or maybe 2 such players, but they wouldn't last for like 4 or 5 rounds like they do in a more open field).
The no top 5 picks draft actually sounds like a cool idea. I just checked my own personal top 20 list, and that draft would only leave around 5-ish of the players. Definitely help narrow the field.
It would definitely help narrow the field, and it could most certainly be interesting, but I think whoever got Bird would have a monumental advantage. Both because he's a top-3 peak of all time player drafted outside the top-5, and he's probably the most individually talented Celtic of all time - he also happens to be fresh in the memory of many here.
If it is a real concern, then just say no top 6 picks and Bird is gone and not a whole lot else as Adrian Dantley and Damien Lillard are probably the next 2 best 6th picks followed by Lenny Wilkens and Hersey Hawkins.  Not exactly a whose who outside of Larry.  Or maybe we just say no top 5 picks or Larry.  That said, there are still a lot of excellent players, MVP's, that are available.  I mean you have guys like Moses, Dr. J, Mailman, Kobe, Curry, Dirk, Giannis, Kawhi, Nash, etc.  It isn't like you couldn't put together a pretty darn good squad and whoever had Larry would be waiting a pretty long time to get that 2nd player where there might be a pretty good drop off. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 08:40:14 AM by Moranis »
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2020, 08:52:02 AM »

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If you think Bird was an around 10th best or outside the top 10 best ever, you must not have lived through and experienced the era. Here is how good Bird was:

In a game in 1986, he was bored so decided to tell the media he was going to play left-handed because he needed to save his right hand for the Lakers later that week. So Bird played the game mostly left-handed and put up a 47/14/10 triple double.....left handed.
I mean there have been lists made by people who've either lived through that era or gobbled up dozens of games with excel sheets to track him play-by-play that place him around 10th. Some also provide very comprehensive analyses of his strengths/weaknesses/impact, I'd be more inclined to believe them.

A couple of examples:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1328924 (the previous ones in 2008 and 2011 had Duncan/Garnett/LeBron not having enough mileage and the 2017 one was hijacked by a Kobe fan + had guys who do extensive film analysis like ElGee not participate)
https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/


Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2020, 09:21:21 AM »

Offline Moranis

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If you think Bird was an around 10th best or outside the top 10 best ever, you must not have lived through and experienced the era. Here is how good Bird was:

In a game in 1986, he was bored so decided to tell the media he was going to play left-handed because he needed to save his right hand for the Lakers later that week. So Bird played the game mostly left-handed and put up a 47/14/10 triple double.....left handed.
Bird was great, but I think you could pretty reasonably put him around 10 especially when talking about peak seasons (where someone like Shaq would be ahead of him even if not career).

I mean I don't think it is crazy if someone felt all of the following were both better and/or with better peaks: Wilt, Bill, MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Oscar, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses.  I don't think all those guys were better, but I do have Bird behind the first 6 guys I listed and have him at 7th all time, but I do think Shaq had a better peak season so if you are looking at peak seasons that alters things (I think Bird had a better peak season than Magic also though would give Magic the slight career edge). 

At some point it is splitting hairs, but that is what these forums always are.
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2020, 12:05:22 PM »

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(1) I like the decades draft. I think they are cool. Strong pools of players and you learn about the time period.

(2) The two decade drafts are awesome. Huge pool of players and you can build monster teams. Learn less about the period but the teams are a lot of fun.

(3) My main concern with the "no top 5 picks" is the extra research required by each participant to come up with a pool of players. That aside, it sounds good.

I did a no All-Stars draft once before. That was pretty tough. It had a 20 year period to pick players from.

(4) Celtics draft is interesting. More interesting if you just used Celtics-only-years. So Shaq in 2011 or whatever it was rather than 2000 Lakers Shaq. Small pool of players though so you would need to use multiple teams instead of just Celtics. Lakers are an obvious choice. Sixers and Warriors have good depth of talent too. I also like having to pick players from different decades (each starter from a differ decade). That would make things quite interesting.


Was there an ETA on the next draft?
Was it the end of the month?

That would be awesome if so. The last draft was a great distraction - fun distraction - from everything going on.


Anyway, I am happy with whatever sort of draft folks want.
Boston Celtics

C: Marc Gasol, Nene, Jaren Jackson Jr
F: Pau Gasol, Rasheed Wallace
F: Kevin Durant, Danny Granger, R-Jefferson
G: Allan Houston, Jason Richardson, Sprewell
G: Steve Nash, John Stockton, Goran Dragic

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2020, 12:24:47 PM »

Offline Moranis

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(1) I like the decades draft. I think they are cool. Strong pools of players and you learn about the time period.

(2) The two decade drafts are awesome. Huge pool of players and you can build monster teams. Learn less about the period but the teams are a lot of fun.

(3) My main concern with the "no top 5 picks" is the extra research required by each participant to come up with a pool of players. That aside, it sounds good.

I did a no All-Stars draft once before. That was pretty tough. It had a 20 year period to pick players from.

(4) Celtics draft is interesting. More interesting if you just used Celtics-only-years. So Shaq in 2011 or whatever it was rather than 2000 Lakers Shaq. Small pool of players though so you would need to use multiple teams instead of just Celtics. Lakers are an obvious choice. Sixers and Warriors have good depth of talent too. I also like having to pick players from different decades (each starter from a differ decade). That would make things quite interesting.


Was there an ETA on the next draft?
Was it the end of the month?

That would be awesome if so. The last draft was a great distraction - fun distraction - from everything going on.


Anyway, I am happy with whatever sort of draft folks want.
There is a link to all picks 1-5 sorted by winshares.  The only addition you would need is the territorial selections, like Wilt, Tommy, Macauley, etc., but those ended sometime in 65 and there weren't that many in any given season (and some seasons didn't have any). 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/draft_finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=&year_max=&round_min=&round_max=&college_id=0&pick_overall_min=1&pick_overall_max=5&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2020, 01:16:33 PM »

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Bumping this thread to see if there's any interest in another historic draft.

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2020, 01:35:51 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Bumping this thread to see if there's any interest in another historic draft.
Yes please. Loved the previous draft game. It was the perfect distraction in the midst of quarantine.

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2020, 01:38:11 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Won't be a participant but would be glad to help as Commish.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2020, 01:44:40 PM »

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Won't be a participant but would be glad to help as Commish.
Much appreciated :).

Re: Drafts after the 21st century draft?
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2020, 01:52:30 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Won't be a participant but would be glad to help as Commish.
Huge TP! :)

Come on people! The last one was tons of fun!