Poll

Who's the best international player of all time? (players in alphabetical order)

Giannis Antetokounmpo
7 (11.7%)
Vlade Divac
0 (0%)
Luka Doncic
2 (3.3%)
Joel Embiid
1 (1.7%)
Pau Gasol
0 (0%)
Manu Ginobili
1 (1.7%)
Rudy Gobert
0 (0%)
Nikola Jokic
0 (0%)
Sarunas Marciulionis
0 (0%)
Yao Ming
2 (3.3%)
Dikembe Mutombo
0 (0%)
Steve Nash
5 (8.3%)
Dirk Nowitzki
8 (13.3%)
Hakeem Olajuwon
23 (38.3%)
Tony Parker
0 (0%)
Drazen Petrovic
1 (1.7%)
Kristaps Porzingis
0 (0%)
Arvydas Sabonis
9 (15%)
Oscar Schmidt
0 (0%)
Pascal Siakam
0 (0%)
Ben Simmons
0 (0%)
Peja Stojakovic
0 (0%)
Karl-Anthony Towns
0 (0%)
other (please name below)
1 (1.7%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: Poll: Best international player of all time  (Read 6619 times)

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Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2020, 03:15:22 PM »

Offline Somebody

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You are wrong about Bird's athleticism. He wasn't way below average, below average or even average. He was very strong, had a great first step, was faster in the open court than you would think and had elite hand eye coordination.

That's very good athleticism. Add that to his elite skills and one of the highest BBIQs around and you have the greatness of Bird.

Oh, and I think he is ambidextrous.

Agreed.

Anyone questioning Larry's athleticism just check out this mixtape, right around the 3:00 mark



Dude had underrated handles, too - shaking several players off their feet.

I've said it before on here...call me crazy but I don't think Larry Bird or Magic were human.
To be fair Bird did lack the top shelf run and jump athleticism some players had, which hurt his FT rates. But yeah he was an amazing athlete overall.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 03:20:41 PM by Somebody »
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2020, 03:18:03 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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You are wrong about Bird's athleticism. He wasn't way below average, below average or even average. He was very strong, had a great first step, was faster in the open court than you would think and had elite hand eye coordination.

That's very good athleticism. Add that to his elite skills and one of the highest BBIQs around and you have the greatness of Bird.

Oh, and I think he is ambidextrous.
Agree to disagree on the athleticism part. :)

As great as Larry was, he wasn't a big leaper. Imo, he wasn't quick either (compared to the majority of the players around the league).

If you ask me, this is exactly why I love his game. He couldn't run really fast, he couldn't jump really high, yet he was dominating everybody!

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2020, 03:24:10 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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You are wrong about Bird's athleticism. He wasn't way below average, below average or even average. He was very strong, had a great first step, was faster in the open court than you would think and had elite hand eye coordination.

That's very good athleticism. Add that to his elite skills and one of the highest BBIQs around and you have the greatness of Bird.

Oh, and I think he is ambidextrous.
Agree to disagree on the athleticism part. :)

As great as Larry was, he wasn't a big leaper. Imo, he wasn't quick either (compared to the majority of the players around the league).

If you ask me, this is exactly why I love his game. He couldn't run really fast, he couldn't jump really high, yet he was dominating everybody!
Jumping doesn't equal athleticism and Bird, as I said was faster than most give him credit for, including you. Bird was a tremendous athlete. His cardio was amazing as were most 70's and 80's NBA players were since training for basketball was sprints and long distance running back then and little to no weight lifting.

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2020, 03:31:32 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Don't think he was close to being as good as Sabonis when it came to players who spent a significant amount of time outside of the NBA. His offence was pretty much only volume scoring and his defence was porous from what I've heard.
Yeah, I believe Sabas was the better player between the two. Scmidt was an elite shooter+scorer, but his defense and his court vision left a lot to be desired (at least from what I've heard). As crazy as it sounds, prime Sabonis had literarily no weakness in his game. I mean, if you think about it, pretty much all the GOAT candidates had at least one weakness in their game.

Jordan: average 3pt shooter
Magic: average D + average shooter
Bird: way below average athleticism
LeBron: average shooter + his D has declined in the recent years (although I bet he can still play elite level D when he's into it)
Shaq: non-shooter + average court vision
Wilt: free throws + long distance shooting
Kareem: long distance shooting
Dream: court vision + long distance shooting
Russell: probably the best defensive player ever, but his offensive game wasn't anywhere near the same level

I get that big men weren't supposed to shoot from distance till the emergence of small ball in the recent years. Thing is, Sabonis wasn't supposed to shoot from distance either, but he did anyway! He famously hit 4 three pointers in the semis of the 1986 FIBA World Championship against Yugoslavia. A thrilling game to say the least! The Soviets were down 9 points with 1 minute to go. Sabonis spearheaded the Soviet comeback with a three pointer to cut the lead to 6 points. One of the greatest comebacks in basketball history!

Maybe Oscar Robertson and Jerry West had no real weakness too? Can't say I know enough about their game to be honest. I've heard people questioning their defensive impact, but then again I've read stories like these:





Prime Sabas, Oscar Robertson and Jerry West might be the only players with no holes in their game.
I think the excerpt was laying the praise pretty thick on Oscar's defence, that was when he played with Kareem in Milwaukee and could leverage his size without worrying about it backfiring (Kareem was an amazing defensive anchor in Milwaukee). His situational value might've been All-Defensive in those years, but I think he was roughly neutral to above average on that end in a vacuum (he played on some porous defences in Cincinnati, a truly elite defensive guard would've helped out somewhat). The 70s was a strange time in basketball - you had a lot of people looking at the game with the wrong lens imo (that doesn't make them poor basketball minds, they were decades before our time and it just results in some wonky schools of thought at times) and the awards given during that era are pretty good evidence. I definitely think that West was more of an all round player compared to Oscar, the tape, stats and eye accounts all scream that he was a good guard defender at the very least while Oscar had mixed signals throughout his career.
Fair enough. I've never watched a whole game of Oscar Robertson or Jerry West. I've read some stuff on the internet, but I've only seen them play in short youtube videos. I bet you guys know a lot more about them than I do.

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2020, 03:47:34 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Jumping doesn't equal athleticism
Huh? Of course it does!


His cardio was amazing as were most 70's and 80's NBA players were since training for basketball was sprints and long distance running back then and little to no weight lifting.
Bird had great stamina. No doubt about that. I mean, 2 days before his 60-point game vs the Hawks he had taken part in a 5-mile race!

Quote from: Larry Bird
Two days before I scored 60 against Atlanta, there was this big five-miler outside of the Boston Garden [it was the 1985 Shamrock Classic]. I ran it in 32 and a half minutes, I think. So against Atlanta I was worried because my hamstrings were really tight, but I got loose and felt better and had a pretty good game, scoring the ball anyway.

It's one thing to have great stamina and it's a whole nother thing to be quick or to be a big leaper.

Here's a funny story from Red:

go to 2:38 of the video


Quote from: Red
(...) we fight all the time. I mean competitively. I play him tennis and I beat him and I throw my racket up in the air and I say how can you let a 65-year-old man beat you?
;D
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 03:58:35 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2020, 04:02:16 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Daniel MF Theis!
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2020, 05:35:48 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Daniel MF Theis!


ok...and i was gonna say KO  ;D

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2020, 05:57:09 PM »

Offline liam

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Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2020, 12:19:34 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2020, 03:16:54 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Dražen Petrović was killing it all over the globe (Europe, NBA, international competitions) by the time he passed away, at age of 29.

It is hard for me to convince myself that he might not be the best of them all if he survived.

When performers die so young and in their primes, it is exceptionally hard to accept their loss.
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2020, 05:23:39 AM »

Offline ederson

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Dražen Petrović was killing it all over the globe (Europe, NBA, international competitions) by the time he passed away, at age of 29.

It is hard for me to convince myself that he might not be the best of them all if he survived.

When performers die so young and in their primes, it is exceptionally hard to accept their loss.

I think you underrate Sabonis .... As a 31yo rookie he had  14p 8r in 23mpg in the NBA and there is a big what if in his case too

I am not saying you are wrong but i dont think it's a clear as you make it to be.

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2020, 06:48:45 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Dražen Petrović was killing it all over the globe (Europe, NBA, international competitions) by the time he passed away, at age of 29.

It is hard for me to convince myself that he might not be the best of them all if he survived.

When performers die so young and in their primes, it is exceptionally hard to accept their loss.

I think you underrate Sabonis .... As a 31yo rookie he had  14p 8r in 23mpg in the NBA and there is a big what if in his case too

I am not saying you are wrong but I don't think it's clear as you make it to be.
Perhaps, but I'd never willingly underestimate the beautiful game that Sabonis played.
I just think that Dražen would be a Steph Curry before Steph Curry if he lived longer.
His 3pt rate and volume would skyrocket, and the line was made even shorter to the basket after his death.
He'd sign with the Knicks or the Rockets that off season and win a title or 2.
With MJ retired, by that time "Amadeus of basketball" would be the talk in the states, and not just the rest of the world.

His death was formative to me.
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2020, 07:25:06 AM »

Offline CelticsWhat35

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I picked Giannis but missed Hakeem in the poll.  It could end up being Giannis when all is said and done, but definitely Hakeem over him right now

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2020, 07:38:49 AM »

Offline ederson

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Dražen Petrović was killing it all over the globe (Europe, NBA, international competitions) by the time he passed away, at age of 29.

It is hard for me to convince myself that he might not be the best of them all if he survived.

When performers die so young and in their primes, it is exceptionally hard to accept their loss.

I think you underrate Sabonis .... As a 31yo rookie he had  14p 8r in 23mpg in the NBA and there is a big what if in his case too

I am not saying you are wrong but I don't think it's clear as you make it to be.

He'd sign with the Knicks or the Rockets that off season and win a title or 2.

His death was formative to me.

I still remember exaclty were i was when i heard about the accident....  He was an arrogant sob but you couldn't help admiring him. 

Are you sure about the Knicks and the Rockets? Cause rumor has it  he was going to sign with Panathinaikos (huge spenders .... two summers later they signed Wilkins) 

Re: Poll: Best international player of all time
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2020, 07:47:13 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Dražen Petrović was killing it all over the globe (Europe, NBA, international competitions) by the time he passed away, at age of 29.

It is hard for me to convince myself that he might not be the best of them all if he survived.

When performers die so young and in their primes, it is exceptionally hard to accept their loss.

I think you underrate Sabonis .... As a 31yo rookie he had  14p 8r in 23mpg in the NBA and there is a big what if in his case too

I am not saying you are wrong but I don't think it's clear as you make it to be.

He'd sign with the Knicks or the Rockets that off season and win a title or 2.

His death was formative to me.

I still remember exaclty were i was when i heard about the accident....  He was an arrogant sob but you couldn't help admiring him. 

Are you sure about the Knicks and the Rockets? Cause rumor has it  he was going to sign with Panathinaikos (huge spenders .... two summers later they signed Wilkins)
Reggie Miller admired him to bits, I think he admitted that Drazen was a better shooter than him.
Rockets PG: Westbrook, Rivers, Clemons SG: Harden, Gordon, McLemore
SF: House, Carroll, Caboclo PF: Covington, Green, Williams
C: Tucker, Hartenstein, Bender
Warriors PG: Curry, Jackson, Bowman SG: Thompson, Lee, Poole
SF: Wiggins, Okoro, Anderson PF: Green, Paschall, MKG
C: Looney, Chriss, Smiley