Author Topic: Coronavirus Concerns  (Read 236158 times)

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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5115 on: August 01, 2020, 09:17:26 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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RIP Herman Cain.

Dude was a Presidential candidate and a close supporter of Donald Trump.

Mr. Cain supposedly beat a form of cancer as well. Sad to see him lose this battle.
When I first heard he contracted Covid, I was wondering how he'd fare in battling the disease.  now we know he wasn't successful.

first thought that ran through my head when I heard this news was I wonder if this is the first domino that gets Republicans to take the steps needed to combat Covid seriously.  Once the rich and powerful start contracting this and suffering the health effects (and possibly some deaths) I wonder if they'll pivot from going against medical guidelines to full fledged support (or close to it).

RIP Mr Cain. Wasn't a fan as a political figure, particularly of his more harebrained ideas but he seemed a nice enough guy, not that I knew him personally  :angel:

Re: your post, I hope they do. Particularly since Cain was a clear Covid skeptic who in June told the public not to believe media scare stories about Covid and refused to wear masks or believe the science. His death, after beating cancer, is a tragedy and I hope that the Republicans still holding out with mask wearing and taking the pandemic seriously, learn from it. Lives are more important than trying to look good to your constituents by not wearing a mask and not socially distancing.

That said, Louie Gohmert, Texas Republican, is saying that wearing a mask is probably what caused his Covid infection:

Quote
ďI canít help but think if I hadnít been wearing a mask so much in the last 10 days or so, I really wonder if I would have gotten it,Ē Gohmert said. ďMoving the mask around, getting it sitting just right, I am bound to have put some virus on the mask that I sucked in. That is most likely what happened.Ē

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/2020/07/31/louie-gohmert-spins-a-dangerous-tale-about-his-positive-covid-19-test/

What a knobhead seriously. These types of people are dangerous because they use their political platform to spread misinformation. If he was an idiot that's bad enough, if he's doing it to pander to his constituents instead of educating them then it's even worse. I have very little sympathy for these people catching it. That said, let's hope it doesn't take more of them dying for others to get the message.

More and more skeptics will either wise up or fall to this virus.
Both inappropriate and a conspicuous attempt at avoiding the swearing filter. Don't do it again.

I think you probably misunderstood him.
"The initial response to the outbreak of a pandemic has always been denial. National and local governments have always been late to respond and have distorted facts and manipulated figures to deny the existence of the outbreak.Ē

Orhan Pamuk

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5116 on: August 01, 2020, 09:29:30 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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More and more skeptics will either wise up or fall to this virus.

Mr. Gohmert's case suggests a third option - he's blaming getting the virus on sometimes wearing a mask.

"The initial response to the outbreak of a pandemic has always been denial. National and local governments have always been late to respond and have distorted facts and manipulated figures to deny the existence of the outbreak.Ē

Orhan Pamuk

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5117 on: August 01, 2020, 09:43:30 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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More and more skeptics will either wise up or fall to this virus.

Mr. Gohmert's case suggests a third option - he's blaming getting the virus on sometimes wearing a mask.

Yes - Gohmertís suggestion isnít just so irresponsible that it defies belief. Whatís even more unbelievable is the lack of outrage from his colleagues.  Where are the leaders in this country?  Where are Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell, Kevin McCarthy, for instance, on this?  Do none of them have the guts or, more to the point, the decency to call Gohmert out for the fool he is.  Of course Trump follows it up with his retweet of Dr. No Mask after his own pro-mask lies.

Gohmert has made remarks I disagree with before but has he ever said something that is so poignantly and imminently dangerous?  Every person who was reinforced in their anti-mask thinking by Gohmertís stupidity is now even more proudly and boldly going maskless while putting self, others and the economy at greater risk.

And not a word from republican leaders.  Or did I miss their rebukes?

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5118 on: August 01, 2020, 09:53:15 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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More and more skeptics will either wise up or fall to this virus.

Mr. Gohmert's case suggests a third option - he's blaming getting the virus on sometimes wearing a mask.

Yes - Gohmertís suggestion isnít just so irresponsible that it defies belief. Whatís even more unbelievable is the lack of outrage from his colleagues.  Where are the leaders in this country?  Where are Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell, Kevin McCarthy, for instance, on this?  Do none of them have the guts or, more to the point, the decency to call Gohmert out for the fool he is.  Of course Trump follows it up with his retweet of Dr. No Mask after his own pro-mask lies.

Gohmert has made remarks I disagree with before but has he ever said something that is so poignantly and imminently dangerous?  Every person who was reinforced in their anti-mask thinking by Gohmertís stupidity is now even more proudly and boldly going maskless while putting self, others and the economy at greater risk.

And not a word from republican leaders.  Or did I miss their rebukes?

I'm reminded often these days of that quotation from Eric Hoffer.

Quote
Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.



"The initial response to the outbreak of a pandemic has always been denial. National and local governments have always been late to respond and have distorted facts and manipulated figures to deny the existence of the outbreak.Ē

Orhan Pamuk

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5119 on: August 01, 2020, 11:36:56 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5120 on: August 01, 2020, 12:19:37 PM »

Offline chicagoceltic

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https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

I honestly have no idea what to make of this stuff.
I say follow the science to where it leads. if hydroxychloroquine is a possible treatment then continue to study it. I do have my doubts though. Dr. Risch's first example of why hydroxychloroquine is disregarded is because "...the medication has become highly politicized. For many, it is viewed as a marker of political identity, on both sides of the political spectrum". I agree that it is politicized, here in the good 'ol U S of A but is it politicized across the globe? Are other countries really disregarding it and risking hundreds of thousands of their countrymen's lives out of spite for Donald Trump? I cannot imagine that that is happening.

Beyond that, what seems to stand out to me in this article is Dr. Risch's personal opinion and perhaps bias. He says "...I am fighting for a treatment that the data fully support but which, for reasons having nothing to do with a correct understanding of the science, has been pushed to the sidelines" then goes on to talk about the article he published on May 27th. A bit later, regarding Doctor's using hydroxychloronoquine he says "Physicians who have been using these medications in the face of widespread skepticism have been truly heroic. They have done what the science shows is best for their patients, often at great personal risk". Later he speaks of another of his articles. The article reads as if he is tooting his own horn a bit.

Again, I have no issue following the science and I would love to find a cure/medication regardless of who it may prove correct. I just do not buy some of the reasoning on why the majority of scientists seems to not believe that hydroxychloronoquine is that cure/medication.
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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5121 on: August 01, 2020, 01:24:26 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

I honestly have no idea what to make of this stuff.

This is crazy.  How can Drs. Fauci, Birx, Redfield, the Surgeon General and so many others basically conclude the research is inconclusive at best and this seemingly highly credible epidemiologist from Yale seems certain that it's an effective treatment? 

It seems to me that the government (especially since the leader is so convinced) should do some serious investment in research on this drug/ drug combination and try to replicate the successful research indicated in this article.

I get that there is politics here, but there is also a Hippocratic oath.  I have faith that most doctors would not take a pass on an effective treatment just because Trump likes it. 

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5122 on: August 01, 2020, 01:44:08 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

I honestly have no idea what to make of this stuff.

This is crazy.  How can Drs. Fauci, Birx, Redfield, the Surgeon General and so many others basically conclude the research is inconclusive at best and this seemingly highly credible epidemiologist from Yale seems certain that it's an effective treatment? 

It seems to me that the government (especially since the leader is so convinced) should do some serious investment in research on this drug/ drug combination and try to replicate the successful research indicated in this article.

I get that there is politics here, but there is also a Hippocratic oath.  I have faith that most doctors would not take a pass on an effective treatment just because Trump likes it.


They've done the research with double-blind clinical trials, the gold standard for testing effectiveness of a drug. So did many other countries. All of those studies showed no effectiveness of hydroxychloroquin in treating covid-19. The results are very, very convincing.

There are ongoing studies right now to test if it is effective in protecting people who are at higher risk for infection. We will see what those studies tell us soon.

Be careful when one or two doctors post and refer to poorer quality studies and their own observations. Even well-established scientists have personal and financial bias.

A great deal of money, rigor, and effort goes in to double-blind clinical trials. They are free of political bias. Unfortunately the vast majority of clinical trials fail the double-blind test. Finding effective, safe drugs is very, very hard and researchers deal with a great deal of disappointment working in this field. Most people would have been very happy if a cheap readily available drug like hydroxychloroquin was effective.


I find the belief that some people have that hydroxychloroquin is repressed for political reasons very perplexing because many countries have independently come to the same conclusion that it is not effective. If there was really some coordinated conspiracy between all of these countries, it would be the first time in history that we've had such broad international cooperation of any sort for any purpose.

We should all focus more on other treatments. In the meantime remdesivir and plasma therapy have been moderately effective , are in high use right now and are helping people. It's probably why in part the death rate has declined.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:04:50 PM by hpantazo »

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5123 on: August 01, 2020, 03:12:44 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

I honestly have no idea what to make of this stuff.

This is crazy.  How can Drs. Fauci, Birx, Redfield, the Surgeon General and so many others basically conclude the research is inconclusive at best and this seemingly highly credible epidemiologist from Yale seems certain that it's an effective treatment? 

It seems to me that the government (especially since the leader is so convinced) should do some serious investment in research on this drug/ drug combination and try to replicate the successful research indicated in this article.

I get that there is politics here, but there is also a Hippocratic oath.  I have faith that most doctors would not take a pass on an effective treatment just because Trump likes it.


They've done the research with double-blind clinical trials, the gold standard for testing effectiveness of a drug. So did many other countries. All of those studies showed no effectiveness of hydroxychloroquin in treating covid-19. The results are very, very convincing.

There are ongoing studies right now to test if it is effective in protecting people who are at higher risk for infection. We will see what those studies tell us soon.

Be careful when one or two doctors post and refer to poorer quality studies and their own observations. Even well-established scientists have personal and financial bias.

A great deal of money, rigor, and effort goes in to double-blind clinical trials. They are free of political bias. Unfortunately the vast majority of clinical trials fail the double-blind test. Finding effective, safe drugs is very, very hard and researchers deal with a great deal of disappointment working in this field. Most people would have been very happy if a cheap readily available drug like hydroxychloroquin was effective.


I find the belief that some people have that hydroxychloroquin is repressed for political reasons very perplexing because many countries have independently come to the same conclusion that it is not effective. If there was really some coordinated conspiracy between all of these countries, it would be the first time in history that we've had such broad international cooperation of any sort for any purpose.

We should all focus more on other treatments. In the meantime remdesivir and plasma therapy have been moderately effective , are in high use right now and are helping people. It's probably why in part the death rate has declined.

I appreciate what you are saying and I believe you. But when you hear the perspective of a Yale epidemiologist and you are a naive citizen like me, itís hard to know who or what to believe.  I have confidence that our president canít be trusted, but that doesnít mean that 100% of his comments are incorrect. If he happens to spew something true I wouldnít want to miss it.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5124 on: August 01, 2020, 03:25:20 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

I honestly have no idea what to make of this stuff.

This is crazy.  How can Drs. Fauci, Birx, Redfield, the Surgeon General and so many others basically conclude the research is inconclusive at best and this seemingly highly credible epidemiologist from Yale seems certain that it's an effective treatment? 

It seems to me that the government (especially since the leader is so convinced) should do some serious investment in research on this drug/ drug combination and try to replicate the successful research indicated in this article.

I get that there is politics here, but there is also a Hippocratic oath.  I have faith that most doctors would not take a pass on an effective treatment just because Trump likes it.


They've done the research with double-blind clinical trials, the gold standard for testing effectiveness of a drug. So did many other countries. All of those studies showed no effectiveness of hydroxychloroquin in treating covid-19. The results are very, very convincing.

There are ongoing studies right now to test if it is effective in protecting people who are at higher risk for infection. We will see what those studies tell us soon.

Be careful when one or two doctors post and refer to poorer quality studies and their own observations. Even well-established scientists have personal and financial bias.

A great deal of money, rigor, and effort goes in to double-blind clinical trials. They are free of political bias. Unfortunately the vast majority of clinical trials fail the double-blind test. Finding effective, safe drugs is very, very hard and researchers deal with a great deal of disappointment working in this field. Most people would have been very happy if a cheap readily available drug like hydroxychloroquin was effective.


I find the belief that some people have that hydroxychloroquin is repressed for political reasons very perplexing because many countries have independently come to the same conclusion that it is not effective. If there was really some coordinated conspiracy between all of these countries, it would be the first time in history that we've had such broad international cooperation of any sort for any purpose.

We should all focus more on other treatments. In the meantime remdesivir and plasma therapy have been moderately effective , are in high use right now and are helping people. It's probably why in part the death rate has declined.

I appreciate what you are saying and I believe you. But when you hear the perspective of a Yale epidemiologist and you are a naive citizen like me, itís hard to know who or what to believe.  I have confidence that our president canít be trusted, but that doesnít mean that 100% of his comments are incorrect. If he happens to spew something true I wouldnít want to miss it.


Oh I fully agree, its really hard to keep up with all this contrasting information coming out every day regarding the coronavirus. I know from experience there are some scientists at all institutions including places like Harvard and Yale that have their own agendas when discussing scientific evidence, and it is very easy for them to present less reliable data in a certain narrative and discard the stronger evidence. Especially when talking to the general public.

I generally don't follow what Trump says either way regarding health topics, which is sad as our leaders should be guiding our citizens on what information to trust. Instead our leaders are stimulating mis-information and distrust in science and medical experts, promoting he confusion in our population.

Sometimes the white house does provide good, reliable info. Sometimes they don't, and often they contradict their own info soon afterwards either way. Its darn hard to keep up!

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5125 on: August 01, 2020, 03:35:20 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Trump should talk more about this one of his initiatives that he's largely ignored instead of repeatedly insisting on hydroxychloroquin:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-promoting-safe-plasma-donations-protect-americans-defeat-covid-19/


Why not get back on this and take credit for something that may actually work?

These bullet points at the end of the page basically should be his talking points on covid-19:

President Trump is using every resource at his disposal to develop safe and effective vaccines and therapeutics in record time.

- Through Operation Warp Speed, President Trump is coordinating the best minds of the United States Government and private industry to quickly deliver vaccines and therapeutics to the American people.

- Thanks to President Trump, the United States has secured 650,000 courses of the drug remdesivir, which has been shown to decrease mortality and speed up recovery time.

- Additionally, President Trump has invested in the rapid development and manufacturing of other therapeutics Ė including Regeneronís double antibody cocktail.


If he were to keep repeating those points instead of harping on a treatment that has been proven ineffective and promoting conspiracy theories on the pandemic, he would be in great shape for the upcoming election.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5126 on: August 01, 2020, 04:39:35 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

I honestly have no idea what to make of this stuff.

Hard to know what to believe but I do not believe that all the global scientists who are studying or monitoring the studies for this are all conspiring to make Trump look bad.

As to Dr. Risch, I think there are some key elements of context here that he is basing his premise on.  First, he is saying it is for "high risk" patients and must be administered "early" for it to help.

Quote
Hydroxychloroquine has shown major success when used early in high-risk people but, as one would expect for an antiviral, much less success when used late in the disease course. Even so, it has demonstrated significant benefit in large hospital studies in Michigan and New York City when started within the first 24 to 48 hours after admission.

The second key thing is that he is referring to its use in combination with other drugs:

Quote
In fact, as inexpensive, oral and widely available medications, and a nutritional supplement, the combination of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin or doxycycline, and zinc are well-suited for early treatment in the outpatient setting. The combination should be prescribed in high-risk patients immediately upon clinical suspicion of COVID-19 disease, without waiting for results of testing. Delays in waiting before starting the medications can reduce their efficacy.

Dr. Fauci said that studies have not been done is a way that the combinations can be assessed.  He contends that none of the studies are conclusive of the benefit of hydroxychloroquine specifically.

I don't think Fauci or anyone is saying no hydroxychloroquine ever, just that the proof of its benefit is not definitive and that there are known and documented risks.  So if a patient is really high risk (probably older people mostly) maybe it is fair for a physician to give it a try, but they better do so in the first 24-48 hrs of treatment (which may already not be "early" depending on how and when the patient was diagnosed), and they should do so knowing that there are risks.

The vast majority of global doctors/scientists have decided that this risk/reward does not support the use of hydroxychloroquine as a treatment.  I am sure they have all come to this conclusion just to make Trump look bad.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5127 on: August 01, 2020, 05:01:12 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Another point to note regarding the Yale doctor is that his article comes across as accusing the US government of not allowing hydroxychloroquine as treatment. That's just not true. The FDA issued a warning suggesting its not effective and may cause heart issues, they never banned it. Doctors are allowed to prescribe it to treat covid-19, nobody is stopping them.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5128 on: August 01, 2020, 06:25:47 PM »

Offline gouki88

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RIP Herman Cain.

Dude was a Presidential candidate and a close supporter of Donald Trump.

Mr. Cain supposedly beat a form of cancer as well. Sad to see him lose this battle.
When I first heard he contracted Covid, I was wondering how he'd fare in battling the disease.  now we know he wasn't successful.

first thought that ran through my head when I heard this news was I wonder if this is the first domino that gets Republicans to take the steps needed to combat Covid seriously.  Once the rich and powerful start contracting this and suffering the health effects (and possibly some deaths) I wonder if they'll pivot from going against medical guidelines to full fledged support (or close to it).

RIP Mr Cain. Wasn't a fan as a political figure, particularly of his more harebrained ideas but he seemed a nice enough guy, not that I knew him personally  :angel:

Re: your post, I hope they do. Particularly since Cain was a clear Covid skeptic who in June told the public not to believe media scare stories about Covid and refused to wear masks or believe the science. His death, after beating cancer, is a tragedy and I hope that the Republicans still holding out with mask wearing and taking the pandemic seriously, learn from it. Lives are more important than trying to look good to your constituents by not wearing a mask and not socially distancing.

That said, Louie Gohmert, Texas Republican, is saying that wearing a mask is probably what caused his Covid infection:

Quote
ďI canít help but think if I hadnít been wearing a mask so much in the last 10 days or so, I really wonder if I would have gotten it,Ē Gohmert said. ďMoving the mask around, getting it sitting just right, I am bound to have put some virus on the mask that I sucked in. That is most likely what happened.Ē

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/2020/07/31/louie-gohmert-spins-a-dangerous-tale-about-his-positive-covid-19-test/

What a knobhead seriously. These types of people are dangerous because they use their political platform to spread misinformation. If he was an idiot that's bad enough, if he's doing it to pander to his constituents instead of educating them then it's even worse. I have very little sympathy for these people catching it. That said, let's hope it doesn't take more of them dying for others to get the message.

More and more skeptics will either wise up or fall to this virus.
Both inappropriate and a conspicuous attempt at avoiding the swearing filter. Don't do it again.

I think you probably misunderstood him.
He literally wrote out a swear word with a # in between the b and the i, which I deleted. This is a kid-friendly forum

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #5129 on: August 02, 2020, 09:02:44 AM »

Offline TheReaLPuba

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https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535.

I honestly have no idea what to make of this stuff.

Doesn't work all that great by itself (Hydroxychloroquine).

Gotta have a good amount of Zinc - that kills the virus.

HCQ just helps move Zinc into the infected cells.

There's other supplements that also do this and you don't require a prescription.

Everyone should be taking prophylactic Vitamin D, Vitamin K2, Vitamin C, Zinc, and a zinc ionophore which helps move it into the cells (Quercetin).

Chances are you will still get infected by Cov19 (virus) but you won't develop Covid19 (disease).