Author Topic: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board  (Read 12678 times)

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Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #105 on: August 07, 2020, 09:06:57 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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If we are lucky enough to get pick 14 and can trade up for a guy who falls a bit, I'd go for (in order):

1.  Okongwu
2.  Halliburton
3.  Toppin
4.  Avdija (only if Hayward is not predicted to stay after next season).

Otherwise, hope for Patrick Williams (or could trade up a spot or two if necessary) at 14.  Next choice at 14 Achiuwa and finally Kira Lewis.
At this stage if we trade up I'm all aboard the Kira Lewis train (unless Okongwu falls), because I doubt we can trade up high enough for Haliburton. Lewis reminds me of a faster Dennis Schroder.
Haliburton is my binkie this season. :) He strongly reminds me of SGA. I believe he has the potential to become the best player in this draft! Where do you think he's gonna get drafted? The highest I've seen him go in the mocks is at #6.

Problem with Haliburton is we already got 2 starting-caliber PGs in Kemba and Smart. It seems to me that we shouldn't be focusing on yet another PG. At the very least, I'm really not sure whether we'll have enough minutes to develop both Haliburton and Langford.

PG: Kemba (31) -
SG: Brown (34) - Smart (32)
SF: Hayward (33) - 

numbers in parentheses = minutes each of these players averaged during the 2019-2020 season

That leaves us with 14 minutes of playing time for Haliburton/Langford. Alternatively, we could go super small and use one of Hayward/Brown/Smart at the 4, but in this case we won't have enough minutes to develop both G-Will and Time Lord.

With this in mind, I wouldn't be against the idea of sacrificing anybody of Langford/G-Will/Time Lord (+picks) for Haliburton.

On the subject of rotation, I suspect this roster will go largely unchanged this off-season. My prediction is Wannamaker isn't retained and we see most of his minutes shifted to Romeo with Waters most likely picking up a few minutes behind Kemba and Smart. I suspect we see Kemba placed into a load management situation from now on. 

As for Haliburton I really like him as a future NBA player and think he would be a great fit with the Celtics. I have seen a few people use the SGA comp and think that is misguided.

First SGA is much longer then Haliburton. SGA has a 6'11.5" wingspan. Haliburton was measured last off-season to have a 6'7.5" wingspan. This has been misrepresented in the media. Haliburtons measurements are almost identical to Delon Wright.

On the court while SGA is clearly an attaching combo/point guard in the mold of a taller longer less athletic Westbrook/D Rose. In college per 36 he had 5 FTA per game. At a usage rate of 22 he had 4.9 shot attempts in the paint per game. Haliburton I view as more of a connecting player on the court. A great passer who ranks up traditional assists and hockey assists moving the ball around the court. He isn't a player you want in isolation with the shot clock running down. Stylistically he is very similar to Lonzo Ball. Compared to SGA Haliburton shot 2 FTA per 36 and at a usage rate of 21 2.8 attempts in the paint per game.

While Haliburton is inferior to SGA in size, athletic ability, and off the dribble creation he is a superior shooter this coupled with is passing and high IQ makes him a great candidate to have a long successful career playing on winning teams. My fear for Haliburton is that he gets drafted by Detriot/NY and is handed the ball and expected to be their primary initiator. This will be a disaster. If he can land on a team that has either a PG or Wing who is the primary scoring option and along side other shooters Haliburton should thrive. The Celtics are an example of this type of roster.     

Depends on who we draft, in terms of how ready he will be to play.  Kira Lewis, though young, has already completed 2 years of top college ball, and should be ready to play into the rotation, especially back up PG minutes. More so than Romeo, who does not have the handle to play that role.

Nesmith also a sophomore, and should be able to get into rotation, given his elite shooting skill.

Xavier Tillman just confirmed he is staying in draft. He would definitely factor into getting minutes for Celtics. Very experienced and high IQ big, Brad would probably trip over himself trying to get him minutes.

Other guys who could come in and get minutes quickly: Grant Riller, Elijah Hughes (NBA Draft.Net has us taking both of them, for what that's worth) and Tyler Bey likely would be able to get minutes next season, although maybe not rotation minutes.

You may be right that the rotation won't change much for next year. But with 3 first round picks, and several very experienced guys available to draft, I wouldn't bet on it.

Barring a trade up of picks, I could see Celtics taking a high upside guy (Poku) and a ready to play guy (Tillman), along with a guy who is a bit of both (Lewis).  I'd be pretty happy with that outcome.

I agree 100% that Tillman is rotation ready. If drafted by the Cs he will put a lot of pressure on R Williams and could spell the end of time lord in Boston. If Tillman improves his outside shot he could become great insurance if the Cs get priced out of Theis down the road.

As for Lewis I really worry about his frame both defensively and finishing at the rim. Morant and Fox are silimare body type PGs but both are where more vertically explosive and better and finishing at the rim.  I do not think he is a player who earns early PT with the Cs and he likely finds himself competing with Waters for scrap minutes as a rookie. (If Kemba is healthy).

Nesmith would be a nice fit by adding elite shooting but is another player I worry about in terms of NBA perimeter defense. With the Cs defense equals PT.

I also worry that drafting shooters like Lewis and Nesmith actually plays out of the Cs staffs developmental strength. They have shown an ability to improve college players 3pt shot. Drafting a player who under achieves as a shooter ie Hampton or Maxey and developing them into 35%+ shooters seems to have a high rate of success for the Cs.

Tillman can't shoot...  His D and passing is very good.  But is also only 6'8.   

I doubt the Celtics will draft him unless he somehow is still there at 46.

Like you said, Kira Lewis is rail thin.  No versatility on D.

Currently I have Danny taking Patrick Williams or Jaden Mcdaniel at 14,  Dotson with 26 and Scrubb at 30.

History tells us that DA has no issue draft 6'8 bigs (R Williams, Yabu, Mickey, Sullinger, Powe). The fact that Tillman is a very good passer and defensive player makes him a perfect fit for the Cs. If he can add an outside shot its a huge bonus and he becomes a steal anywhere outside the lottery. Without a shot he still is a long term pro who provides great depth at center.

I agree P Williams is a great fit long term for the Cs.  I'm a fan of a later 1st gamble on Mcdaniels with the understanding that he is a high risk to bust. Dotson I don't see the value, not sure he is much better then Waters who was a 2nd round pick. Also think other 2nd round pgs are as good ( Riller, Pritchard. Winston). Scrubb I honestly no very little about but my inclination is to pass on a player jumping from JUCO to the NBA

Robert Williams is not 6'8.  At least 6'9 if not a smidge taller imo.  I dont mind tillman but not over Scrubb at 30

McDaniels has low bustability... worse case he will be a serviceable player off the bench.  6'10 with his offensive skills ... jump shot

Dotson at 26... is a mini steal.  He is 6'2 so not like Waters who is 5'9?  Dotson also is an explosive athlete.... better physical tools translation for next level

Scrubb again did not qualify bc of academic reason. Not bc he doesnt have skill. If he played div 1 ... he would have been good. He is skilled and athletic. His jump shot and handles is very good for a 6'6 player. Look below

https://youtu.be/7kEdRSqZy5I


Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #106 on: August 07, 2020, 09:08:37 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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If we are lucky enough to get pick 14 and can trade up for a guy who falls a bit, I'd go for (in order):

1.  Okongwu
2.  Halliburton
3.  Toppin
4.  Avdija (only if Hayward is not predicted to stay after next season).

Otherwise, hope for Patrick Williams (or could trade up a spot or two if necessary) at 14.  Next choice at 14 Achiuwa and finally Kira Lewis.
At this stage if we trade up I'm all aboard the Kira Lewis train (unless Okongwu falls), because I doubt we can trade up high enough for Haliburton. Lewis reminds me of a faster Dennis Schroder.
Haliburton is my binkie this season. :) He strongly reminds me of SGA. I believe he has the potential to become the best player in this draft! Where do you think he's gonna get drafted? The highest I've seen him go in the mocks is at #6.

Problem with Haliburton is we already got 2 starting-caliber PGs in Kemba and Smart. It seems to me that we shouldn't be focusing on yet another PG. At the very least, I'm really not sure whether we'll have enough minutes to develop both Haliburton and Langford.

PG: Kemba (31) -
SG: Brown (34) - Smart (32)
SF: Hayward (33) - 

numbers in parentheses = minutes each of these players averaged during the 2019-2020 season

That leaves us with 14 minutes of playing time for Haliburton/Langford. Alternatively, we could go super small and use one of Hayward/Brown/Smart at the 4, but in this case we won't have enough minutes to develop both G-Will and Time Lord.

With this in mind, I wouldn't be against the idea of sacrificing anybody of Langford/G-Will/Time Lord (+picks) for Haliburton.

On the subject of rotation, I suspect this roster will go largely unchanged this off-season. My prediction is Wannamaker isn't retained and we see most of his minutes shifted to Romeo with Waters most likely picking up a few minutes behind Kemba and Smart. I suspect we see Kemba placed into a load management situation from now on. 

As for Haliburton I really like him as a future NBA player and think he would be a great fit with the Celtics. I have seen a few people use the SGA comp and think that is misguided.

First SGA is much longer then Haliburton. SGA has a 6'11.5" wingspan. Haliburton was measured last off-season to have a 6'7.5" wingspan. This has been misrepresented in the media. Haliburtons measurements are almost identical to Delon Wright.

On the court while SGA is clearly an attaching combo/point guard in the mold of a taller longer less athletic Westbrook/D Rose. In college per 36 he had 5 FTA per game. At a usage rate of 22 he had 4.9 shot attempts in the paint per game. Haliburton I view as more of a connecting player on the court. A great passer who ranks up traditional assists and hockey assists moving the ball around the court. He isn't a player you want in isolation with the shot clock running down. Stylistically he is very similar to Lonzo Ball. Compared to SGA Haliburton shot 2 FTA per 36 and at a usage rate of 21 2.8 attempts in the paint per game.

While Haliburton is inferior to SGA in size, athletic ability, and off the dribble creation he is a superior shooter this coupled with is passing and high IQ makes him a great candidate to have a long successful career playing on winning teams. My fear for Haliburton is that he gets drafted by Detriot/NY and is handed the ball and expected to be their primary initiator. This will be a disaster. If he can land on a team that has either a PG or Wing who is the primary scoring option and along side other shooters Haliburton should thrive. The Celtics are an example of this type of roster.     

Depends on who we draft, in terms of how ready he will be to play.  Kira Lewis, though young, has already completed 2 years of top college ball, and should be ready to play into the rotation, especially back up PG minutes. More so than Romeo, who does not have the handle to play that role.

Nesmith also a sophomore, and should be able to get into rotation, given his elite shooting skill.

Xavier Tillman just confirmed he is staying in draft. He would definitely factor into getting minutes for Celtics. Very experienced and high IQ big, Brad would probably trip over himself trying to get him minutes.

Other guys who could come in and get minutes quickly: Grant Riller, Elijah Hughes (NBA Draft.Net has us taking both of them, for what that's worth) and Tyler Bey likely would be able to get minutes next season, although maybe not rotation minutes.

You may be right that the rotation won't change much for next year. But with 3 first round picks, and several very experienced guys available to draft, I wouldn't bet on it.

Barring a trade up of picks, I could see Celtics taking a high upside guy (Poku) and a ready to play guy (Tillman), along with a guy who is a bit of both (Lewis).  I'd be pretty happy with that outcome.

I agree 100% that Tillman is rotation ready. If drafted by the Cs he will put a lot of pressure on R Williams and could spell the end of time lord in Boston. If Tillman improves his outside shot he could become great insurance if the Cs get priced out of Theis down the road.

As for Lewis I really worry about his frame both defensively and finishing at the rim. Morant and Fox are silimare body type PGs but both are where more vertically explosive and better and finishing at the rim.  I do not think he is a player who earns early PT with the Cs and he likely finds himself competing with Waters for scrap minutes as a rookie. (If Kemba is healthy).

Nesmith would be a nice fit by adding elite shooting but is another player I worry about in terms of NBA perimeter defense. With the Cs defense equals PT.

I also worry that drafting shooters like Lewis and Nesmith actually plays out of the Cs staffs developmental strength. They have shown an ability to improve college players 3pt shot. Drafting a player who under achieves as a shooter ie Hampton or Maxey and developing them into 35%+ shooters seems to have a high rate of success for the Cs.

Tillman can't shoot...  His D and passing is very good.  But is also only 6'8.   

I doubt the Celtics will draft him unless he somehow is still there at 46.

Like you said, Kira Lewis is rail thin.  No versatility on D.

Currently I have Danny taking Patrick Williams or Jaden Mcdaniel at 14,  Dotson with 26 and Scrubb at 30.

Ja Morant and D'Aron Fox are rail thin, that is a poor reason to not draft Lewis, like Fox is super quick (more so than Morant) and with similar size and length, and is also a better shooter than either one of them coming into draft. I don't get all this push back on K Lewis.


My push back on Lewis is more to do with the PG position then it is Lewis as a player. If a player with PG size doesn't have the ceiling to be a starting near all star level pg then they become a wasted 1st rd pick. Lewis might over achieve and reach that level but his lack of strength worries me. The only other way I see to get a high level of value out of that type of pick is if they are an elite off ball shooter. Tyrell Terry is my example of this because I can see a situation where he isn't an elite starting PG but has a ton of value playing along side a Luka/Giannis type in a Seth Curry type role.

Looking at the PGs/Combo guards in this class Ball, Hayes, Haliburton, Hampton and Maledon all have the utility to defend smaller wings and PGs. If they don't develop into starting lead guards they still have value as smaller wings and add tougher to replace value to a roster. Lewis, Anthony, Maxey, Terry, and Mannion are all player who are physically limited in who they can successfully defend and if they are not able to develop into a teams starting PG is it worth paying them 1st round money when a min vet or 2nd round pick can likely match their production on a much smaller contract?

In the end I'm just not sold that Lewis is a elite enough athlete at his size to become the heir apparent to Kemba. If he isn't then the Cs have a decent contract tied up in a player who will struggle to get PT based on his position.

Not an elite enough athlete at his size?  What am I missing?  He would be one of the quickest/fastest guys in NBA.  Are you concerned because his finishing rate inside is below norm?

Vertical explosion seems good not great, that coupled with lack of strength creates finishing issues.
I don't see that as too much of an issue. He's lightening fast and has a really soft touch. These issues haven't stopped guys like Kyrie or Schroder becoming really strong offensive players

I will give it to you that Schroder is a great ceiling comp for Lewis.
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Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #107 on: August 07, 2020, 10:19:03 PM »

Offline footey

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If we are lucky enough to get pick 14 and can trade up for a guy who falls a bit, I'd go for (in order):

1.  Okongwu
2.  Halliburton
3.  Toppin
4.  Avdija (only if Hayward is not predicted to stay after next season).

Otherwise, hope for Patrick Williams (or could trade up a spot or two if necessary) at 14.  Next choice at 14 Achiuwa and finally Kira Lewis.
At this stage if we trade up I'm all aboard the Kira Lewis train (unless Okongwu falls), because I doubt we can trade up high enough for Haliburton. Lewis reminds me of a faster Dennis Schroder.
Haliburton is my binkie this season. :) He strongly reminds me of SGA. I believe he has the potential to become the best player in this draft! Where do you think he's gonna get drafted? The highest I've seen him go in the mocks is at #6.

Problem with Haliburton is we already got 2 starting-caliber PGs in Kemba and Smart. It seems to me that we shouldn't be focusing on yet another PG. At the very least, I'm really not sure whether we'll have enough minutes to develop both Haliburton and Langford.

PG: Kemba (31) -
SG: Brown (34) - Smart (32)
SF: Hayward (33) - 

numbers in parentheses = minutes each of these players averaged during the 2019-2020 season

That leaves us with 14 minutes of playing time for Haliburton/Langford. Alternatively, we could go super small and use one of Hayward/Brown/Smart at the 4, but in this case we won't have enough minutes to develop both G-Will and Time Lord.

With this in mind, I wouldn't be against the idea of sacrificing anybody of Langford/G-Will/Time Lord (+picks) for Haliburton.

On the subject of rotation, I suspect this roster will go largely unchanged this off-season. My prediction is Wannamaker isn't retained and we see most of his minutes shifted to Romeo with Waters most likely picking up a few minutes behind Kemba and Smart. I suspect we see Kemba placed into a load management situation from now on. 

As for Haliburton I really like him as a future NBA player and think he would be a great fit with the Celtics. I have seen a few people use the SGA comp and think that is misguided.

First SGA is much longer then Haliburton. SGA has a 6'11.5" wingspan. Haliburton was measured last off-season to have a 6'7.5" wingspan. This has been misrepresented in the media. Haliburtons measurements are almost identical to Delon Wright.

On the court while SGA is clearly an attaching combo/point guard in the mold of a taller longer less athletic Westbrook/D Rose. In college per 36 he had 5 FTA per game. At a usage rate of 22 he had 4.9 shot attempts in the paint per game. Haliburton I view as more of a connecting player on the court. A great passer who ranks up traditional assists and hockey assists moving the ball around the court. He isn't a player you want in isolation with the shot clock running down. Stylistically he is very similar to Lonzo Ball. Compared to SGA Haliburton shot 2 FTA per 36 and at a usage rate of 21 2.8 attempts in the paint per game.

While Haliburton is inferior to SGA in size, athletic ability, and off the dribble creation he is a superior shooter this coupled with is passing and high IQ makes him a great candidate to have a long successful career playing on winning teams. My fear for Haliburton is that he gets drafted by Detriot/NY and is handed the ball and expected to be their primary initiator. This will be a disaster. If he can land on a team that has either a PG or Wing who is the primary scoring option and along side other shooters Haliburton should thrive. The Celtics are an example of this type of roster.     

Depends on who we draft, in terms of how ready he will be to play.  Kira Lewis, though young, has already completed 2 years of top college ball, and should be ready to play into the rotation, especially back up PG minutes. More so than Romeo, who does not have the handle to play that role.

Nesmith also a sophomore, and should be able to get into rotation, given his elite shooting skill.

Xavier Tillman just confirmed he is staying in draft. He would definitely factor into getting minutes for Celtics. Very experienced and high IQ big, Brad would probably trip over himself trying to get him minutes.

Other guys who could come in and get minutes quickly: Grant Riller, Elijah Hughes (NBA Draft.Net has us taking both of them, for what that's worth) and Tyler Bey likely would be able to get minutes next season, although maybe not rotation minutes.

You may be right that the rotation won't change much for next year. But with 3 first round picks, and several very experienced guys available to draft, I wouldn't bet on it.

Barring a trade up of picks, I could see Celtics taking a high upside guy (Poku) and a ready to play guy (Tillman), along with a guy who is a bit of both (Lewis).  I'd be pretty happy with that outcome.

I agree 100% that Tillman is rotation ready. If drafted by the Cs he will put a lot of pressure on R Williams and could spell the end of time lord in Boston. If Tillman improves his outside shot he could become great insurance if the Cs get priced out of Theis down the road.

As for Lewis I really worry about his frame both defensively and finishing at the rim. Morant and Fox are silimare body type PGs but both are where more vertically explosive and better and finishing at the rim.  I do not think he is a player who earns early PT with the Cs and he likely finds himself competing with Waters for scrap minutes as a rookie. (If Kemba is healthy).

Nesmith would be a nice fit by adding elite shooting but is another player I worry about in terms of NBA perimeter defense. With the Cs defense equals PT.

I also worry that drafting shooters like Lewis and Nesmith actually plays out of the Cs staffs developmental strength. They have shown an ability to improve college players 3pt shot. Drafting a player who under achieves as a shooter ie Hampton or Maxey and developing them into 35%+ shooters seems to have a high rate of success for the Cs.

Tillman can't shoot...  His D and passing is very good.  But is also only 6'8.   

I doubt the Celtics will draft him unless he somehow is still there at 46.

Like you said, Kira Lewis is rail thin.  No versatility on D.

Currently I have Danny taking Patrick Williams or Jaden Mcdaniel at 14,  Dotson with 26 and Scrubb at 30.

Ja Morant and D'Aron Fox are rail thin, that is a poor reason to not draft Lewis, like Fox is super quick (more so than Morant) and with similar size and length, and is also a better shooter than either one of them coming into draft. I don't get all this push back on K Lewis.


My push back on Lewis is more to do with the PG position then it is Lewis as a player. If a player with PG size doesn't have the ceiling to be a starting near all star level pg then they become a wasted 1st rd pick. Lewis might over achieve and reach that level but his lack of strength worries me. The only other way I see to get a high level of value out of that type of pick is if they are an elite off ball shooter. Tyrell Terry is my example of this because I can see a situation where he isn't an elite starting PG but has a ton of value playing along side a Luka/Giannis type in a Seth Curry type role.

Looking at the PGs/Combo guards in this class Ball, Hayes, Haliburton, Hampton and Maledon all have the utility to defend smaller wings and PGs. If they don't develop into starting lead guards they still have value as smaller wings and add tougher to replace value to a roster. Lewis, Anthony, Maxey, Terry, and Mannion are all player who are physically limited in who they can successfully defend and if they are not able to develop into a teams starting PG is it worth paying them 1st round money when a min vet or 2nd round pick can likely match their production on a much smaller contract?

In the end I'm just not sold that Lewis is a elite enough athlete at his size to become the heir apparent to Kemba. If he isn't then the Cs have a decent contract tied up in a player who will struggle to get PT based on his position.

Not an elite enough athlete at his size?  What am I missing?  He would be one of the quickest/fastest guys in NBA.  Are you concerned because his finishing rate inside is below norm?

Vertical explosion seems good not great, that coupled with lack of strength creates finishing issues.
I don't see that as too much of an issue. He's lightening fast and has a really soft touch. These issues haven't stopped guys like Kyrie or Schroder becoming really strong offensive players

I will give it to you that Schroder is a great ceiling comp for Lewis.

Thatís his floor

Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #108 on: August 07, 2020, 10:21:54 PM »

Offline gouki88

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If we are lucky enough to get pick 14 and can trade up for a guy who falls a bit, I'd go for (in order):

1.  Okongwu
2.  Halliburton
3.  Toppin
4.  Avdija (only if Hayward is not predicted to stay after next season).

Otherwise, hope for Patrick Williams (or could trade up a spot or two if necessary) at 14.  Next choice at 14 Achiuwa and finally Kira Lewis.
At this stage if we trade up I'm all aboard the Kira Lewis train (unless Okongwu falls), because I doubt we can trade up high enough for Haliburton. Lewis reminds me of a faster Dennis Schroder.
Haliburton is my binkie this season. :) He strongly reminds me of SGA. I believe he has the potential to become the best player in this draft! Where do you think he's gonna get drafted? The highest I've seen him go in the mocks is at #6.

Problem with Haliburton is we already got 2 starting-caliber PGs in Kemba and Smart. It seems to me that we shouldn't be focusing on yet another PG. At the very least, I'm really not sure whether we'll have enough minutes to develop both Haliburton and Langford.

PG: Kemba (31) -
SG: Brown (34) - Smart (32)
SF: Hayward (33) - 

numbers in parentheses = minutes each of these players averaged during the 2019-2020 season

That leaves us with 14 minutes of playing time for Haliburton/Langford. Alternatively, we could go super small and use one of Hayward/Brown/Smart at the 4, but in this case we won't have enough minutes to develop both G-Will and Time Lord.

With this in mind, I wouldn't be against the idea of sacrificing anybody of Langford/G-Will/Time Lord (+picks) for Haliburton.

On the subject of rotation, I suspect this roster will go largely unchanged this off-season. My prediction is Wannamaker isn't retained and we see most of his minutes shifted to Romeo with Waters most likely picking up a few minutes behind Kemba and Smart. I suspect we see Kemba placed into a load management situation from now on. 

As for Haliburton I really like him as a future NBA player and think he would be a great fit with the Celtics. I have seen a few people use the SGA comp and think that is misguided.

First SGA is much longer then Haliburton. SGA has a 6'11.5" wingspan. Haliburton was measured last off-season to have a 6'7.5" wingspan. This has been misrepresented in the media. Haliburtons measurements are almost identical to Delon Wright.

On the court while SGA is clearly an attaching combo/point guard in the mold of a taller longer less athletic Westbrook/D Rose. In college per 36 he had 5 FTA per game. At a usage rate of 22 he had 4.9 shot attempts in the paint per game. Haliburton I view as more of a connecting player on the court. A great passer who ranks up traditional assists and hockey assists moving the ball around the court. He isn't a player you want in isolation with the shot clock running down. Stylistically he is very similar to Lonzo Ball. Compared to SGA Haliburton shot 2 FTA per 36 and at a usage rate of 21 2.8 attempts in the paint per game.

While Haliburton is inferior to SGA in size, athletic ability, and off the dribble creation he is a superior shooter this coupled with is passing and high IQ makes him a great candidate to have a long successful career playing on winning teams. My fear for Haliburton is that he gets drafted by Detriot/NY and is handed the ball and expected to be their primary initiator. This will be a disaster. If he can land on a team that has either a PG or Wing who is the primary scoring option and along side other shooters Haliburton should thrive. The Celtics are an example of this type of roster.     

Depends on who we draft, in terms of how ready he will be to play.  Kira Lewis, though young, has already completed 2 years of top college ball, and should be ready to play into the rotation, especially back up PG minutes. More so than Romeo, who does not have the handle to play that role.

Nesmith also a sophomore, and should be able to get into rotation, given his elite shooting skill.

Xavier Tillman just confirmed he is staying in draft. He would definitely factor into getting minutes for Celtics. Very experienced and high IQ big, Brad would probably trip over himself trying to get him minutes.

Other guys who could come in and get minutes quickly: Grant Riller, Elijah Hughes (NBA Draft.Net has us taking both of them, for what that's worth) and Tyler Bey likely would be able to get minutes next season, although maybe not rotation minutes.

You may be right that the rotation won't change much for next year. But with 3 first round picks, and several very experienced guys available to draft, I wouldn't bet on it.

Barring a trade up of picks, I could see Celtics taking a high upside guy (Poku) and a ready to play guy (Tillman), along with a guy who is a bit of both (Lewis).  I'd be pretty happy with that outcome.

I agree 100% that Tillman is rotation ready. If drafted by the Cs he will put a lot of pressure on R Williams and could spell the end of time lord in Boston. If Tillman improves his outside shot he could become great insurance if the Cs get priced out of Theis down the road.

As for Lewis I really worry about his frame both defensively and finishing at the rim. Morant and Fox are silimare body type PGs but both are where more vertically explosive and better and finishing at the rim.  I do not think he is a player who earns early PT with the Cs and he likely finds himself competing with Waters for scrap minutes as a rookie. (If Kemba is healthy).

Nesmith would be a nice fit by adding elite shooting but is another player I worry about in terms of NBA perimeter defense. With the Cs defense equals PT.

I also worry that drafting shooters like Lewis and Nesmith actually plays out of the Cs staffs developmental strength. They have shown an ability to improve college players 3pt shot. Drafting a player who under achieves as a shooter ie Hampton or Maxey and developing them into 35%+ shooters seems to have a high rate of success for the Cs.

Tillman can't shoot...  His D and passing is very good.  But is also only 6'8.   

I doubt the Celtics will draft him unless he somehow is still there at 46.

Like you said, Kira Lewis is rail thin.  No versatility on D.

Currently I have Danny taking Patrick Williams or Jaden Mcdaniel at 14,  Dotson with 26 and Scrubb at 30.

Ja Morant and D'Aron Fox are rail thin, that is a poor reason to not draft Lewis, like Fox is super quick (more so than Morant) and with similar size and length, and is also a better shooter than either one of them coming into draft. I don't get all this push back on K Lewis.


My push back on Lewis is more to do with the PG position then it is Lewis as a player. If a player with PG size doesn't have the ceiling to be a starting near all star level pg then they become a wasted 1st rd pick. Lewis might over achieve and reach that level but his lack of strength worries me. The only other way I see to get a high level of value out of that type of pick is if they are an elite off ball shooter. Tyrell Terry is my example of this because I can see a situation where he isn't an elite starting PG but has a ton of value playing along side a Luka/Giannis type in a Seth Curry type role.

Looking at the PGs/Combo guards in this class Ball, Hayes, Haliburton, Hampton and Maledon all have the utility to defend smaller wings and PGs. If they don't develop into starting lead guards they still have value as smaller wings and add tougher to replace value to a roster. Lewis, Anthony, Maxey, Terry, and Mannion are all player who are physically limited in who they can successfully defend and if they are not able to develop into a teams starting PG is it worth paying them 1st round money when a min vet or 2nd round pick can likely match their production on a much smaller contract?

In the end I'm just not sold that Lewis is a elite enough athlete at his size to become the heir apparent to Kemba. If he isn't then the Cs have a decent contract tied up in a player who will struggle to get PT based on his position.

Not an elite enough athlete at his size?  What am I missing?  He would be one of the quickest/fastest guys in NBA.  Are you concerned because his finishing rate inside is below norm?

Vertical explosion seems good not great, that coupled with lack of strength creates finishing issues.
I don't see that as too much of an issue. He's lightening fast and has a really soft touch. These issues haven't stopped guys like Kyrie or Schroder becoming really strong offensive players

I will give it to you that Schroder is a great ceiling comp for Lewis.

Thatís his floor
I think I'm in the middle - I see Schroder as the likely scenario. By that I mean the OKC Schroder we see now. Considerably better on defence, good shooting from 3 and generally good offence. I think 6MOTY candidate is a lofty floor for any player, especially one that will only just scrape into the lottery IMO.

Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #109 on: August 07, 2020, 10:46:32 PM »

Offline footey

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Thatís championship ball there.

Beautiful.

Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #110 on: August 07, 2020, 10:51:39 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Wrong Thread

Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2020, 12:10:21 PM »

Offline footey

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If we are lucky enough to get pick 14 and can trade up for a guy who falls a bit, I'd go for (in order):

1.  Okongwu
2.  Halliburton
3.  Toppin
4.  Avdija (only if Hayward is not predicted to stay after next season).

Otherwise, hope for Patrick Williams (or could trade up a spot or two if necessary) at 14.  Next choice at 14 Achiuwa and finally Kira Lewis.
At this stage if we trade up I'm all aboard the Kira Lewis train (unless Okongwu falls), because I doubt we can trade up high enough for Haliburton. Lewis reminds me of a faster Dennis Schroder.
Haliburton is my binkie this season. :) He strongly reminds me of SGA. I believe he has the potential to become the best player in this draft! Where do you think he's gonna get drafted? The highest I've seen him go in the mocks is at #6.

Problem with Haliburton is we already got 2 starting-caliber PGs in Kemba and Smart. It seems to me that we shouldn't be focusing on yet another PG. At the very least, I'm really not sure whether we'll have enough minutes to develop both Haliburton and Langford.

PG: Kemba (31) -
SG: Brown (34) - Smart (32)
SF: Hayward (33) - 

numbers in parentheses = minutes each of these players averaged during the 2019-2020 season

That leaves us with 14 minutes of playing time for Haliburton/Langford. Alternatively, we could go super small and use one of Hayward/Brown/Smart at the 4, but in this case we won't have enough minutes to develop both G-Will and Time Lord.

With this in mind, I wouldn't be against the idea of sacrificing anybody of Langford/G-Will/Time Lord (+picks) for Haliburton.

On the subject of rotation, I suspect this roster will go largely unchanged this off-season. My prediction is Wannamaker isn't retained and we see most of his minutes shifted to Romeo with Waters most likely picking up a few minutes behind Kemba and Smart. I suspect we see Kemba placed into a load management situation from now on. 

As for Haliburton I really like him as a future NBA player and think he would be a great fit with the Celtics. I have seen a few people use the SGA comp and think that is misguided.

First SGA is much longer then Haliburton. SGA has a 6'11.5" wingspan. Haliburton was measured last off-season to have a 6'7.5" wingspan. This has been misrepresented in the media. Haliburtons measurements are almost identical to Delon Wright.

On the court while SGA is clearly an attaching combo/point guard in the mold of a taller longer less athletic Westbrook/D Rose. In college per 36 he had 5 FTA per game. At a usage rate of 22 he had 4.9 shot attempts in the paint per game. Haliburton I view as more of a connecting player on the court. A great passer who ranks up traditional assists and hockey assists moving the ball around the court. He isn't a player you want in isolation with the shot clock running down. Stylistically he is very similar to Lonzo Ball. Compared to SGA Haliburton shot 2 FTA per 36 and at a usage rate of 21 2.8 attempts in the paint per game.

While Haliburton is inferior to SGA in size, athletic ability, and off the dribble creation he is a superior shooter this coupled with is passing and high IQ makes him a great candidate to have a long successful career playing on winning teams. My fear for Haliburton is that he gets drafted by Detriot/NY and is handed the ball and expected to be their primary initiator. This will be a disaster. If he can land on a team that has either a PG or Wing who is the primary scoring option and along side other shooters Haliburton should thrive. The Celtics are an example of this type of roster.     

Depends on who we draft, in terms of how ready he will be to play.  Kira Lewis, though young, has already completed 2 years of top college ball, and should be ready to play into the rotation, especially back up PG minutes. More so than Romeo, who does not have the handle to play that role.

Nesmith also a sophomore, and should be able to get into rotation, given his elite shooting skill.

Xavier Tillman just confirmed he is staying in draft. He would definitely factor into getting minutes for Celtics. Very experienced and high IQ big, Brad would probably trip over himself trying to get him minutes.

Other guys who could come in and get minutes quickly: Grant Riller, Elijah Hughes (NBA Draft.Net has us taking both of them, for what that's worth) and Tyler Bey likely would be able to get minutes next season, although maybe not rotation minutes.

You may be right that the rotation won't change much for next year. But with 3 first round picks, and several very experienced guys available to draft, I wouldn't bet on it.

Barring a trade up of picks, I could see Celtics taking a high upside guy (Poku) and a ready to play guy (Tillman), along with a guy who is a bit of both (Lewis).  I'd be pretty happy with that outcome.

I agree 100% that Tillman is rotation ready. If drafted by the Cs he will put a lot of pressure on R Williams and could spell the end of time lord in Boston. If Tillman improves his outside shot he could become great insurance if the Cs get priced out of Theis down the road.

As for Lewis I really worry about his frame both defensively and finishing at the rim. Morant and Fox are silimare body type PGs but both are where more vertically explosive and better and finishing at the rim.  I do not think he is a player who earns early PT with the Cs and he likely finds himself competing with Waters for scrap minutes as a rookie. (If Kemba is healthy).

Nesmith would be a nice fit by adding elite shooting but is another player I worry about in terms of NBA perimeter defense. With the Cs defense equals PT.

I also worry that drafting shooters like Lewis and Nesmith actually plays out of the Cs staffs developmental strength. They have shown an ability to improve college players 3pt shot. Drafting a player who under achieves as a shooter ie Hampton or Maxey and developing them into 35%+ shooters seems to have a high rate of success for the Cs.

Tillman can't shoot...  His D and passing is very good.  But is also only 6'8.   

I doubt the Celtics will draft him unless he somehow is still there at 46.

Like you said, Kira Lewis is rail thin.  No versatility on D.

Currently I have Danny taking Patrick Williams or Jaden Mcdaniel at 14,  Dotson with 26 and Scrubb at 30.

Ja Morant and D'Aron Fox are rail thin, that is a poor reason to not draft Lewis, like Fox is super quick (more so than Morant) and with similar size and length, and is also a better shooter than either one of them coming into draft. I don't get all this push back on K Lewis.


My push back on Lewis is more to do with the PG position then it is Lewis as a player. If a player with PG size doesn't have the ceiling to be a starting near all star level pg then they become a wasted 1st rd pick. Lewis might over achieve and reach that level but his lack of strength worries me. The only other way I see to get a high level of value out of that type of pick is if they are an elite off ball shooter. Tyrell Terry is my example of this because I can see a situation where he isn't an elite starting PG but has a ton of value playing along side a Luka/Giannis type in a Seth Curry type role.

Looking at the PGs/Combo guards in this class Ball, Hayes, Haliburton, Hampton and Maledon all have the utility to defend smaller wings and PGs. If they don't develop into starting lead guards they still have value as smaller wings and add tougher to replace value to a roster. Lewis, Anthony, Maxey, Terry, and Mannion are all player who are physically limited in who they can successfully defend and if they are not able to develop into a teams starting PG is it worth paying them 1st round money when a min vet or 2nd round pick can likely match their production on a much smaller contract?

In the end I'm just not sold that Lewis is a elite enough athlete at his size to become the heir apparent to Kemba. If he isn't then the Cs have a decent contract tied up in a player who will struggle to get PT based on his position.

Not an elite enough athlete at his size?  What am I missing?  He would be one of the quickest/fastest guys in NBA.  Are you concerned because his finishing rate inside is below norm?

Vertical explosion seems good not great, that coupled with lack of strength creates finishing issues.
I don't see that as too much of an issue. He's lightening fast and has a really soft touch. These issues haven't stopped guys like Kyrie or Schroder becoming really strong offensive players

I will give it to you that Schroder is a great ceiling comp for Lewis.

Thatís his floor
I think I'm in the middle - I see Schroder as the likely scenario. By that I mean the OKC Schroder we see now. Considerably better on defence, good shooting from 3 and generally good offence. I think 6MOTY candidate is a lofty floor for any player, especially one that will only just scrape into the lottery IMO.

Fair enough, I was overreacting to calling Schroeder his ceiling, which is too limiting. I agree that his floor is lower than that, Schroeder is decent player.

Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2020, 12:25:05 PM »

Offline footey

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Wrong Thread

Yeah, I got so excited last night's game I hit the wrong thread!!

Re: 2020 Tiered Draft Big Board
« Reply #113 on: August 09, 2020, 04:28:20 AM »

Offline gouki88

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If we are lucky enough to get pick 14 and can trade up for a guy who falls a bit, I'd go for (in order):

1.  Okongwu
2.  Halliburton
3.  Toppin
4.  Avdija (only if Hayward is not predicted to stay after next season).

Otherwise, hope for Patrick Williams (or could trade up a spot or two if necessary) at 14.  Next choice at 14 Achiuwa and finally Kira Lewis.
At this stage if we trade up I'm all aboard the Kira Lewis train (unless Okongwu falls), because I doubt we can trade up high enough for Haliburton. Lewis reminds me of a faster Dennis Schroder.
Haliburton is my binkie this season. :) He strongly reminds me of SGA. I believe he has the potential to become the best player in this draft! Where do you think he's gonna get drafted? The highest I've seen him go in the mocks is at #6.

Problem with Haliburton is we already got 2 starting-caliber PGs in Kemba and Smart. It seems to me that we shouldn't be focusing on yet another PG. At the very least, I'm really not sure whether we'll have enough minutes to develop both Haliburton and Langford.

PG: Kemba (31) -
SG: Brown (34) - Smart (32)
SF: Hayward (33) - 

numbers in parentheses = minutes each of these players averaged during the 2019-2020 season

That leaves us with 14 minutes of playing time for Haliburton/Langford. Alternatively, we could go super small and use one of Hayward/Brown/Smart at the 4, but in this case we won't have enough minutes to develop both G-Will and Time Lord.

With this in mind, I wouldn't be against the idea of sacrificing anybody of Langford/G-Will/Time Lord (+picks) for Haliburton.

On the subject of rotation, I suspect this roster will go largely unchanged this off-season. My prediction is Wannamaker isn't retained and we see most of his minutes shifted to Romeo with Waters most likely picking up a few minutes behind Kemba and Smart. I suspect we see Kemba placed into a load management situation from now on. 

As for Haliburton I really like him as a future NBA player and think he would be a great fit with the Celtics. I have seen a few people use the SGA comp and think that is misguided.

First SGA is much longer then Haliburton. SGA has a 6'11.5" wingspan. Haliburton was measured last off-season to have a 6'7.5" wingspan. This has been misrepresented in the media. Haliburtons measurements are almost identical to Delon Wright.

On the court while SGA is clearly an attaching combo/point guard in the mold of a taller longer less athletic Westbrook/D Rose. In college per 36 he had 5 FTA per game. At a usage rate of 22 he had 4.9 shot attempts in the paint per game. Haliburton I view as more of a connecting player on the court. A great passer who ranks up traditional assists and hockey assists moving the ball around the court. He isn't a player you want in isolation with the shot clock running down. Stylistically he is very similar to Lonzo Ball. Compared to SGA Haliburton shot 2 FTA per 36 and at a usage rate of 21 2.8 attempts in the paint per game.

While Haliburton is inferior to SGA in size, athletic ability, and off the dribble creation he is a superior shooter this coupled with is passing and high IQ makes him a great candidate to have a long successful career playing on winning teams. My fear for Haliburton is that he gets drafted by Detriot/NY and is handed the ball and expected to be their primary initiator. This will be a disaster. If he can land on a team that has either a PG or Wing who is the primary scoring option and along side other shooters Haliburton should thrive. The Celtics are an example of this type of roster.     

Depends on who we draft, in terms of how ready he will be to play.  Kira Lewis, though young, has already completed 2 years of top college ball, and should be ready to play into the rotation, especially back up PG minutes. More so than Romeo, who does not have the handle to play that role.

Nesmith also a sophomore, and should be able to get into rotation, given his elite shooting skill.

Xavier Tillman just confirmed he is staying in draft. He would definitely factor into getting minutes for Celtics. Very experienced and high IQ big, Brad would probably trip over himself trying to get him minutes.

Other guys who could come in and get minutes quickly: Grant Riller, Elijah Hughes (NBA Draft.Net has us taking both of them, for what that's worth) and Tyler Bey likely would be able to get minutes next season, although maybe not rotation minutes.

You may be right that the rotation won't change much for next year. But with 3 first round picks, and several very experienced guys available to draft, I wouldn't bet on it.

Barring a trade up of picks, I could see Celtics taking a high upside guy (Poku) and a ready to play guy (Tillman), along with a guy who is a bit of both (Lewis).  I'd be pretty happy with that outcome.

I agree 100% that Tillman is rotation ready. If drafted by the Cs he will put a lot of pressure on R Williams and could spell the end of time lord in Boston. If Tillman improves his outside shot he could become great insurance if the Cs get priced out of Theis down the road.

As for Lewis I really worry about his frame both defensively and finishing at the rim. Morant and Fox are silimare body type PGs but both are where more vertically explosive and better and finishing at the rim.  I do not think he is a player who earns early PT with the Cs and he likely finds himself competing with Waters for scrap minutes as a rookie. (If Kemba is healthy).

Nesmith would be a nice fit by adding elite shooting but is another player I worry about in terms of NBA perimeter defense. With the Cs defense equals PT.

I also worry that drafting shooters like Lewis and Nesmith actually plays out of the Cs staffs developmental strength. They have shown an ability to improve college players 3pt shot. Drafting a player who under achieves as a shooter ie Hampton or Maxey and developing them into 35%+ shooters seems to have a high rate of success for the Cs.

Tillman can't shoot...  His D and passing is very good.  But is also only 6'8.   

I doubt the Celtics will draft him unless he somehow is still there at 46.

Like you said, Kira Lewis is rail thin.  No versatility on D.

Currently I have Danny taking Patrick Williams or Jaden Mcdaniel at 14,  Dotson with 26 and Scrubb at 30.

Ja Morant and D'Aron Fox are rail thin, that is a poor reason to not draft Lewis, like Fox is super quick (more so than Morant) and with similar size and length, and is also a better shooter than either one of them coming into draft. I don't get all this push back on K Lewis.


My push back on Lewis is more to do with the PG position then it is Lewis as a player. If a player with PG size doesn't have the ceiling to be a starting near all star level pg then they become a wasted 1st rd pick. Lewis might over achieve and reach that level but his lack of strength worries me. The only other way I see to get a high level of value out of that type of pick is if they are an elite off ball shooter. Tyrell Terry is my example of this because I can see a situation where he isn't an elite starting PG but has a ton of value playing along side a Luka/Giannis type in a Seth Curry type role.

Looking at the PGs/Combo guards in this class Ball, Hayes, Haliburton, Hampton and Maledon all have the utility to defend smaller wings and PGs. If they don't develop into starting lead guards they still have value as smaller wings and add tougher to replace value to a roster. Lewis, Anthony, Maxey, Terry, and Mannion are all player who are physically limited in who they can successfully defend and if they are not able to develop into a teams starting PG is it worth paying them 1st round money when a min vet or 2nd round pick can likely match their production on a much smaller contract?

In the end I'm just not sold that Lewis is a elite enough athlete at his size to become the heir apparent to Kemba. If he isn't then the Cs have a decent contract tied up in a player who will struggle to get PT based on his position.

Not an elite enough athlete at his size?  What am I missing?  He would be one of the quickest/fastest guys in NBA.  Are you concerned because his finishing rate inside is below norm?

Vertical explosion seems good not great, that coupled with lack of strength creates finishing issues.
I don't see that as too much of an issue. He's lightening fast and has a really soft touch. These issues haven't stopped guys like Kyrie or Schroder becoming really strong offensive players

I will give it to you that Schroder is a great ceiling comp for Lewis.

Thatís his floor
I think I'm in the middle - I see Schroder as the likely scenario. By that I mean the OKC Schroder we see now. Considerably better on defence, good shooting from 3 and generally good offence. I think 6MOTY candidate is a lofty floor for any player, especially one that will only just scrape into the lottery IMO.

Fair enough, I was overreacting to calling Schroeder his ceiling, which is too limiting. I agree that his floor is lower than that, Schroeder is decent player.
Don't worry, I've definitely said more absurd things ;D

Either way I would like him!