Does the loss to 76ers show our wings are not good enough?

[Rosco917]

Is it possible that the Jays are so similar in style at this point in their career, that they struggle to play together.

Last evening the entire team had a total of 17 assists. Lebron averages nearly 11 per game alone.

Brown and Tatum have essentially the same basketball IQ, both aren't very good ball handlers, both are improving but hesitant passers, both are looking for "there's." Both are still young players right? So we either wait for them to hopefully mature, or realize that maybe they will never be able to play with each other.

Tatum shooting percentage is .420 nearly the lowest among 20 point scorers in the NBA. (The lowest being Lowery at .406, but he hands out 7.5 assists a game.) Smart while he has improved is shooting at .361. We have several of our most inefficient scorers taking high amounts of shots during the game.   

Kemba while being a heck of an offensive player is not generally regarded as a true PG. He's a "scoring point guard" and that's okay if the rest of the team has play making mindset...unfortunately the Celtics do not.

Too much of the time this team lacks BBIQ and general team chemistry.

Or maybe ... just maybe ...


Assists are overrated.

Almost as overrated as individual rebounds.


The Celts have the 9th best offense in the league.  That rating has been higher but it's gone down a bit due to the slump.

They also have the 4th best defense.


So whatever flaws you want to point out with the core group at the top of this team, so far through nearly half the season they've played at an elite level on defense and a very good level on offense. 

That is the formula for contention, even if the thin bench and the lack of experience among the top guys on the team suggests that we shouldnt' really expect them to contend for the title this season.



There's no question that Jay & Jay have shown a tendency to revert to iso/hero-ball when jumpers aren't falling and things get tough.  They still do that this year even though they're doing it less than last year, when it was a teamwide issue that cost them too many games.


I think DWC is right to focus on matchup specific issues.  Why does the trio of Thybulle-Richardson-Harris do so well against the Celts? 


It may be the case that the Celts have an offense that can really blow mediocre defenses out of the water, but that doesn't have the extra gear necessary to easily get quality buckets against the best defenses.  Even so, in such matchups the Celts' own great defense may be enough to keep the game close enough to come down to a couple clutch baskets.

Tell that to Lebron and his Laker cohorts tearing the NBA up at this time. Passes that find players in good position or lead to open shots will never be overrated. It forces the players to move and space well on the floor.

[Fierce1]

Is it possible that the Jays are so similar in style at this point in their career, that they struggle to play together.

Last evening the entire team had a total of 17 assists. Lebron averages nearly 11 per game alone.

Brown and Tatum have essentially the same basketball IQ, both aren't very good ball handlers, both are improving but hesitant passers, both are looking for "there's." Both are still young players right? So we either wait for them to hopefully mature, or realize that maybe they will never be able to play with each other.

Tatum shooting percentage is .420 nearly the lowest among 20 point scorers in the NBA. (The lowest being Lowery at .406, but he hands out 7.5 assists a game.) Smart while he has improved is shooting at .361. We have several of our most inefficient scorers taking high amounts of shots during the game.   

Kemba while being a heck of an offensive player is not generally regarded as a true PG. He's a "scoring point guard" and that's okay if the rest of the team has play making mindset...unfortunately the Celtics do not.

Too much of the time this team lacks BBIQ and general team chemistry.

Or maybe ... just maybe ...


Assists are overrated.

Almost as overrated as individual rebounds.


The Celts have the 9th best offense in the league.  That rating has been higher but it's gone down a bit due to the slump.

They also have the 4th best defense.


So whatever flaws you want to point out with the core group at the top of this team, so far through nearly half the season they've played at an elite level on defense and a very good level on offense. 

That is the formula for contention, even if the thin bench and the lack of experience among the top guys on the team suggests that we shouldnt' really expect them to contend for the title this season.



There's no question that Jay & Jay have shown a tendency to revert to iso/hero-ball when jumpers aren't falling and things get tough.  They still do that this year even though they're doing it less than last year, when it was a teamwide issue that cost them too many games.


I think DWC is right to focus on matchup specific issues.  Why does the trio of Thybulle-Richardson-Harris do so well against the Celts? 


It may be the case that the Celts have an offense that can really blow mediocre defenses out of the water, but that doesn't have the extra gear necessary to easily get quality buckets against the best defenses.  Even so, in such matchups the Celts' own great defense may be enough to keep the game close enough to come down to a couple clutch baskets.

Tell that to Lebron and his Laker cohorts tearing the NBA up at this time. Passes that find players in good position or lead to open shots will never be overrated. It forces the players to move and space well on the floor.

To be fair, Lebron never averaged double figures in assists until this season.

What changed?

Anthony Davis!

Lakers can play inside-outside basketball with AD and Lebron.

They have diversity on offense, they don't just rely on one attack, they attack inside and outside.

[Phantom255x]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

[Fierce1]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

[Phantom255x]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

Like I said, I'm fine "entertaining the idea" of Hayward to the bench, but am not a proponent for it myself.

And I'm curious about what big you actually want us to trade Hayward for?

My personal hope is:

1. Trade Poirier + Semi Ojeyele + Future 1st round for Bertans

2. Sign a depth big man that's available in the buyout market

OR you can basically swap the two (first trade for some cheap big with a similar package, and then sign some shooter off the bench in the buyout market)

[Fierce1]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

Like I said, I'm fine "entertaining the idea" of Hayward to the bench, but am not a proponent for it myself.

And I'm curious about what big you actually want us to trade Hayward for?

My personal hope is:

1. Trade Poirier + Semi Ojeyele + Future 1st round for Bertans

2. Sign a depth big man that's available in the buyout market

OR you can basically swap the two (first trade for some cheap big with a similar package, and then sign some shooter off the bench in the buyout market)

1. I think the Wiz would want more than just a pick and the garbage players of the Celts.
Bertans' trade value is really high right now.

2. The buyout market won't solve the big man problem of the Celts.
What the Celts need is a big man who will supplant Theis as the starting Center.
A big man from the buyout market would just end up backing up Theis.

I think the time has come for the Celts to stop hoping to get better next season or waiting for another lopsided deal that favors the Celts.

Trading Hayward for Drummond or Steven Adams will make the Celts better and a more balanced team.

Celts can't be totally relying on the wing players to get the job done every game.

There must be diversity on offense.

A big man that can rebound and score inside will relieve some of the pressure on the wing players.

[gouki88]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

Like I said, I'm fine "entertaining the idea" of Hayward to the bench, but am not a proponent for it myself.

And I'm curious about what big you actually want us to trade Hayward for?

My personal hope is:

1. Trade Poirier + Semi Ojeyele + Future 1st round for Bertans

2. Sign a depth big man that's available in the buyout market

OR you can basically swap the two (first trade for some cheap big with a similar package, and then sign some shooter off the bench in the buyout market)

1. I think the Wiz would want more than just a pick and the garbage players of the Celts.
Bertans' trade value is really high right now.

2. The buyout market won't solve the big man problem of the Celts.
What the Celts need is a big man who will supplant Theis as the starting Center.
A big man from the buyout market would just end up backing up Theis.

I think the time has come for the Celts to stop hoping to get better next season or waiting for another lopsided deal that favors the Celts.

Trading Hayward for Drummond or Steven Adams will make the Celts better and a more balanced team.

Celts can't be totally relying on the wing players to get the job done every game.

There must be diversity on offense.

A big man that can rebound and score inside will relieve some of the pressure on the wing players.

The idea that we need a big stiff who can’t score from outside 8 feet nor really pass NOR defend the perimeter is one I don’t get. Drummond is a meh defender, and Adams is solid, but not spectacular. Both far less versatile on defence than Theis. Trading our most complete offensive player for someone like that because he’s had a few bad games (don’t mention that we’re still on pace for 7-10 more wins than most expected, that won’t help your cause) is terrible talent management.

[Fierce1]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

Like I said, I'm fine "entertaining the idea" of Hayward to the bench, but am not a proponent for it myself.

And I'm curious about what big you actually want us to trade Hayward for?

My personal hope is:

1. Trade Poirier + Semi Ojeyele + Future 1st round for Bertans

2. Sign a depth big man that's available in the buyout market

OR you can basically swap the two (first trade for some cheap big with a similar package, and then sign some shooter off the bench in the buyout market)

1. I think the Wiz would want more than just a pick and the garbage players of the Celts.
Bertans' trade value is really high right now.

2. The buyout market won't solve the big man problem of the Celts.
What the Celts need is a big man who will supplant Theis as the starting Center.
A big man from the buyout market would just end up backing up Theis.

I think the time has come for the Celts to stop hoping to get better next season or waiting for another lopsided deal that favors the Celts.

Trading Hayward for Drummond or Steven Adams will make the Celts better and a more balanced team.

Celts can't be totally relying on the wing players to get the job done every game.

There must be diversity on offense.

A big man that can rebound and score inside will relieve some of the pressure on the wing players.

The idea that we need a big stiff who can’t score from outside 8 feet nor really pass NOR defend the perimeter is one I don’t get. Drummond is a meh defender, and Adams is solid, but not spectacular. Both far less versatile on defence than Theis. Trading our most complete offensive player for someone like that because he’s had a few bad games (don’t mention that we’re still on pace for 7-10 more wins than most expected, that won’t help your cause) is terrible talent management.

That's your opinion.

Some of us are actually seeing Theis getting abused inside the paint by bigger opposing Centers.

Maybe Hayward was once a great player, but now, Jaylen Brown is already better than Hayward.

What you're not seeing is nobody is saying we trade Hayward and Theis.
If you really love Theis then there's nothing wrong with trading Hayward for Adams or Drummond then make Theis the backup Center.

You end up having the best of both worlds, keeping Theis at the same time upgrading the Center position.

No NBA GM would ever say that Daniel Theis is better than Steven Adams and Andre Drummond.

It's a fact that Adams or Drummond would be an upgrade over Theis.

If you check the numbers, in games where all of the 5 core players of Kemba, Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Hayward were all healthy and playing, only 3 out of the 5 are usually having good games.

That's the law of diminishing returns setting in.

[Phantom255x]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

Like I said, I'm fine "entertaining the idea" of Hayward to the bench, but am not a proponent for it myself.

And I'm curious about what big you actually want us to trade Hayward for?

My personal hope is:

1. Trade Poirier + Semi Ojeyele + Future 1st round for Bertans

2. Sign a depth big man that's available in the buyout market

OR you can basically swap the two (first trade for some cheap big with a similar package, and then sign some shooter off the bench in the buyout market)

1. I think the Wiz would want more than just a pick and the garbage players of the Celts.
Bertans' trade value is really high right now.

2. The buyout market won't solve the big man problem of the Celts.
What the Celts need is a big man who will supplant Theis as the starting Center.
A big man from the buyout market would just end up backing up Theis.

I think the time has come for the Celts to stop hoping to get better next season or waiting for another lopsided deal that favors the Celts.

Trading Hayward for Drummond or Steven Adams will make the Celts better and a more balanced team.

Celts can't be totally relying on the wing players to get the job done every game.

There must be diversity on offense.

A big man that can rebound and score inside will relieve some of the pressure on the wing players.

The idea that we need a big stiff who can’t score from outside 8 feet nor really pass NOR defend the perimeter is one I don’t get. Drummond is a meh defender, and Adams is solid, but not spectacular. Both far less versatile on defence than Theis. Trading our most complete offensive player for someone like that because he’s had a few bad games (don’t mention that we’re still on pace for 7-10 more wins than most expected, that won’t help your cause) is terrible talent management.

That's your opinion.

Some of us are actually seeing Theis getting abused inside the paint by bigger opposing Centers.

Maybe Hayward was once a great player, but now, Jaylen Brown is already better than Hayward.

What you're not seeing is nobody is saying we trade Hayward and Theis.
If you really love Theis then there's nothing wrong with trading Hayward for Adams or Drummond then make Theis the backup Center.

You end up having the best of both worlds, keeping Theis at the same time upgrading the Center position.

No NBA GM would ever say that Daniel Theis is better than Steven Adams and Andre Drummond.

It's a fact that Adams or Drummond would be an upgrade over Theis.

If you check the numbers, in games where all of the 5 core players of Kemba, Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Hayward were all healthy and playing, only 3 out of the 5 are usually having good games.

That's the law of diminishing returns setting in.

You do realize Drummond in particular has been notorious for getting punked on defense against the likes of Embiid, Giannis, etc., right? Like you're arguing about Theis and Kanter, but Drummond really isn't some huge upgrade like you're making it out to be. Even Adams, as good as he is, isn't moving the needle especially at the expense of Hayward (even with the frustrating week he's had).

I can almost guarantee you if Kanter played the minutes Drummond does, he'd put up very similar numbers.

[mmmmm]

jeez.  Every single thread on CS these days devolves into the same thread.

Mods:  Maybe you should just merge this in with all the other threads about how badly we need to trade Hayward/Smart/Tatum for Drummond/Adams/Valanciunous/etc?

[Fierce1]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

Like I said, I'm fine "entertaining the idea" of Hayward to the bench, but am not a proponent for it myself.

And I'm curious about what big you actually want us to trade Hayward for?

My personal hope is:

1. Trade Poirier + Semi Ojeyele + Future 1st round for Bertans

2. Sign a depth big man that's available in the buyout market

OR you can basically swap the two (first trade for some cheap big with a similar package, and then sign some shooter off the bench in the buyout market)

1. I think the Wiz would want more than just a pick and the garbage players of the Celts.
Bertans' trade value is really high right now.

2. The buyout market won't solve the big man problem of the Celts.
What the Celts need is a big man who will supplant Theis as the starting Center.
A big man from the buyout market would just end up backing up Theis.

I think the time has come for the Celts to stop hoping to get better next season or waiting for another lopsided deal that favors the Celts.

Trading Hayward for Drummond or Steven Adams will make the Celts better and a more balanced team.

Celts can't be totally relying on the wing players to get the job done every game.

There must be diversity on offense.

A big man that can rebound and score inside will relieve some of the pressure on the wing players.

The idea that we need a big stiff who can’t score from outside 8 feet nor really pass NOR defend the perimeter is one I don’t get. Drummond is a meh defender, and Adams is solid, but not spectacular. Both far less versatile on defence than Theis. Trading our most complete offensive player for someone like that because he’s had a few bad games (don’t mention that we’re still on pace for 7-10 more wins than most expected, that won’t help your cause) is terrible talent management.

That's your opinion.

Some of us are actually seeing Theis getting abused inside the paint by bigger opposing Centers.

Maybe Hayward was once a great player, but now, Jaylen Brown is already better than Hayward.

What you're not seeing is nobody is saying we trade Hayward and Theis.
If you really love Theis then there's nothing wrong with trading Hayward for Adams or Drummond then make Theis the backup Center.

You end up having the best of both worlds, keeping Theis at the same time upgrading the Center position.

No NBA GM would ever say that Daniel Theis is better than Steven Adams and Andre Drummond.

It's a fact that Adams or Drummond would be an upgrade over Theis.

If you check the numbers, in games where all of the 5 core players of Kemba, Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Hayward were all healthy and playing, only 3 out of the 5 are usually having good games.

That's the law of diminishing returns setting in.

You do realize Drummond in particular has been notorious for getting punked on defense against the likes of Embiid, Giannis, etc., right? Like you're arguing about Theis and Kanter, but Drummond really isn't some huge upgrade like you're making it out to be. Even Adams, as good as he is, isn't moving the needle especially at the expense of Hayward (even with the frustrating week he's had).

I can almost guarantee you if Kanter played the minutes Drummond does, he'd put up very similar numbers.

If you don't like Drummond then let's go for Steven Adams.

[Phantom255x]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

Like I said, I'm fine "entertaining the idea" of Hayward to the bench, but am not a proponent for it myself.

And I'm curious about what big you actually want us to trade Hayward for?

My personal hope is:

1. Trade Poirier + Semi Ojeyele + Future 1st round for Bertans

2. Sign a depth big man that's available in the buyout market

OR you can basically swap the two (first trade for some cheap big with a similar package, and then sign some shooter off the bench in the buyout market)

1. I think the Wiz would want more than just a pick and the garbage players of the Celts.
Bertans' trade value is really high right now.

2. The buyout market won't solve the big man problem of the Celts.
What the Celts need is a big man who will supplant Theis as the starting Center.
A big man from the buyout market would just end up backing up Theis.

I think the time has come for the Celts to stop hoping to get better next season or waiting for another lopsided deal that favors the Celts.

Trading Hayward for Drummond or Steven Adams will make the Celts better and a more balanced team.

Celts can't be totally relying on the wing players to get the job done every game.

There must be diversity on offense.

A big man that can rebound and score inside will relieve some of the pressure on the wing players.

The idea that we need a big stiff who can’t score from outside 8 feet nor really pass NOR defend the perimeter is one I don’t get. Drummond is a meh defender, and Adams is solid, but not spectacular. Both far less versatile on defence than Theis. Trading our most complete offensive player for someone like that because he’s had a few bad games (don’t mention that we’re still on pace for 7-10 more wins than most expected, that won’t help your cause) is terrible talent management.

That's your opinion.

Some of us are actually seeing Theis getting abused inside the paint by bigger opposing Centers.

Maybe Hayward was once a great player, but now, Jaylen Brown is already better than Hayward.

What you're not seeing is nobody is saying we trade Hayward and Theis.
If you really love Theis then there's nothing wrong with trading Hayward for Adams or Drummond then make Theis the backup Center.

You end up having the best of both worlds, keeping Theis at the same time upgrading the Center position.

No NBA GM would ever say that Daniel Theis is better than Steven Adams and Andre Drummond.

It's a fact that Adams or Drummond would be an upgrade over Theis.

If you check the numbers, in games where all of the 5 core players of Kemba, Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Hayward were all healthy and playing, only 3 out of the 5 are usually having good games.

That's the law of diminishing returns setting in.

You do realize Drummond in particular has been notorious for getting punked on defense against the likes of Embiid, Giannis, etc., right? Like you're arguing about Theis and Kanter, but Drummond really isn't some huge upgrade like you're making it out to be. Even Adams, as good as he is, isn't moving the needle especially at the expense of Hayward (even with the frustrating week he's had).

I can almost guarantee you if Kanter played the minutes Drummond does, he'd put up very similar numbers.

If you don't like Drummond then let's go for Steven Adams.

Well, if you want to trade Hayward + picks for Adams, then you can go ahead. I just don't think it's changing much. That's my opinion. I like Adams and actually think he'd be a solid fit here. I was one of the guys hoping we could acquire him last summer (although maybe it was a good decision not to since we added Kemba + Kanter with the cap space, and kept Smart/Brown in the process lol)

However, I feel you're better off banking on Hayward returning to form again, which he absolutely can still do. OKC definitely would want multiple picks back in a trade too since Hayward's mainly for salary-matching purposes.

[Fierce1]

It shows me our bench scoring needs to improve, and Danny better work on it.

Yes, Hayward/Tatum/Brown all struggled yesterday, but the truth is even when we were winning and our regulars were balling, our bench scoring was often a weakness. They'll show glimpses, but the truth is, the scoring often seems to dry when the bench comes on and I feel this is true especially against the great teams in the league.

Someone like a Bertans would help our team a ton IMO. Or another fairly cheap sharpshooter that's out there (via small trade or buyout). It might not even be a terrible idea to move Hayward to the bench and have him as a 6th man (I don't like the idea myself, but I'm willing to entertain it once we get some injured guys back + hopefully make some addition in the future).

Also true, the bench has been a problem this season.

Really not a good idea to move Hayward to the bench.

Might as well trade Hayward if that's the case.

Trade Hayward for a big then add Bertans.
That's the ideal scenario.

Like I said, I'm fine "entertaining the idea" of Hayward to the bench, but am not a proponent for it myself.

And I'm curious about what big you actually want us to trade Hayward for?

My personal hope is:

1. Trade Poirier + Semi Ojeyele + Future 1st round for Bertans

2. Sign a depth big man that's available in the buyout market

OR you can basically swap the two (first trade for some cheap big with a similar package, and then sign some shooter off the bench in the buyout market)

1. I think the Wiz would want more than just a pick and the garbage players of the Celts.
Bertans' trade value is really high right now.

2. The buyout market won't solve the big man problem of the Celts.
What the Celts need is a big man who will supplant Theis as the starting Center.
A big man from the buyout market would just end up backing up Theis.

I think the time has come for the Celts to stop hoping to get better next season or waiting for another lopsided deal that favors the Celts.

Trading Hayward for Drummond or Steven Adams will make the Celts better and a more balanced team.

Celts can't be totally relying on the wing players to get the job done every game.

There must be diversity on offense.

A big man that can rebound and score inside will relieve some of the pressure on the wing players.

The idea that we need a big stiff who can’t score from outside 8 feet nor really pass NOR defend the perimeter is one I don’t get. Drummond is a meh defender, and Adams is solid, but not spectacular. Both far less versatile on defence than Theis. Trading our most complete offensive player for someone like that because he’s had a few bad games (don’t mention that we’re still on pace for 7-10 more wins than most expected, that won’t help your cause) is terrible talent management.

That's your opinion.

Some of us are actually seeing Theis getting abused inside the paint by bigger opposing Centers.

Maybe Hayward was once a great player, but now, Jaylen Brown is already better than Hayward.

What you're not seeing is nobody is saying we trade Hayward and Theis.
If you really love Theis then there's nothing wrong with trading Hayward for Adams or Drummond then make Theis the backup Center.

You end up having the best of both worlds, keeping Theis at the same time upgrading the Center position.

No NBA GM would ever say that Daniel Theis is better than Steven Adams and Andre Drummond.

It's a fact that Adams or Drummond would be an upgrade over Theis.

If you check the numbers, in games where all of the 5 core players of Kemba, Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Hayward were all healthy and playing, only 3 out of the 5 are usually having good games.

That's the law of diminishing returns setting in.

You do realize Drummond in particular has been notorious for getting punked on defense against the likes of Embiid, Giannis, etc., right? Like you're arguing about Theis and Kanter, but Drummond really isn't some huge upgrade like you're making it out to be. Even Adams, as good as he is, isn't moving the needle especially at the expense of Hayward (even with the frustrating week he's had).

I can almost guarantee you if Kanter played the minutes Drummond does, he'd put up very similar numbers.

If you don't like Drummond then let's go for Steven Adams.

Well, if you want to trade Hayward + picks for Adams, then you can go ahead. I just don't think it's changing much. That's my opinion. I like Adams and actually think he'd be a solid fit here. I was one of the guys hoping we could acquire him last summer (although maybe it was a good decision not to since we added Kemba + Kanter with the cap space, and kept Smart/Brown in the process lol)

However, I feel you're better off banking on Hayward returning to form again, which he absolutely can still do. OKC definitely would want multiple picks back in a trade too since Hayward's mainly for salary-matching purposes.

There's no doubt that Hayward is still a very good player and might return to All-Star status someday.

But that's also the reason why the Celts will get someone like Adams for Hayward.
Hayward is a valuable asset.
It's not like Hayward is Chandler Parsons.

There's also the possibility it ends up being a 3-team trade with Drummond and Gallinari ending up with the Celts.

Right now there are lots of possibilities and Ainge and the Celts have the assets to make the possibility a reality.

[PhoSita]

Is it possible that the Jays are so similar in style at this point in their career, that they struggle to play together.

Last evening the entire team had a total of 17 assists. Lebron averages nearly 11 per game alone.

Brown and Tatum have essentially the same basketball IQ, both aren't very good ball handlers, both are improving but hesitant passers, both are looking for "there's." Both are still young players right? So we either wait for them to hopefully mature, or realize that maybe they will never be able to play with each other.

Tatum shooting percentage is .420 nearly the lowest among 20 point scorers in the NBA. (The lowest being Lowery at .406, but he hands out 7.5 assists a game.) Smart while he has improved is shooting at .361. We have several of our most inefficient scorers taking high amounts of shots during the game.   

Kemba while being a heck of an offensive player is not generally regarded as a true PG. He's a "scoring point guard" and that's okay if the rest of the team has play making mindset...unfortunately the Celtics do not.

Too much of the time this team lacks BBIQ and general team chemistry.

Or maybe ... just maybe ...


Assists are overrated.

Almost as overrated as individual rebounds.


The Celts have the 9th best offense in the league.  That rating has been higher but it's gone down a bit due to the slump.

They also have the 4th best defense.


So whatever flaws you want to point out with the core group at the top of this team, so far through nearly half the season they've played at an elite level on defense and a very good level on offense. 

That is the formula for contention, even if the thin bench and the lack of experience among the top guys on the team suggests that we shouldnt' really expect them to contend for the title this season.



There's no question that Jay & Jay have shown a tendency to revert to iso/hero-ball when jumpers aren't falling and things get tough.  They still do that this year even though they're doing it less than last year, when it was a teamwide issue that cost them too many games.


I think DWC is right to focus on matchup specific issues.  Why does the trio of Thybulle-Richardson-Harris do so well against the Celts? 


It may be the case that the Celts have an offense that can really blow mediocre defenses out of the water, but that doesn't have the extra gear necessary to easily get quality buckets against the best defenses.  Even so, in such matchups the Celts' own great defense may be enough to keep the game close enough to come down to a couple clutch baskets.

Tell that to Lebron and his Laker cohorts tearing the NBA up at this time. Passes that find players in good position or lead to open shots will never be overrated. It forces the players to move and space well on the floor.

There isn't just one way to be good in the NBA

[Moranis]

I still keep coming back to the question good enough for what?

I mean this team isn't a realistic title threat because it doesn't have the super duper star a team needs.  That player does not need to be a wing though.  If it was a PG or big man, then the wings would be perfectly fine, but our PG and big men aren't franchise level players and none of the wings are either (at least not yet).  Until Boston has that player, it isn't a realistic contender.

In addition, while it happens, it is very rare for a team, not counting the TW players, that has 5 rookies, 2 2nd year players, and 3 3rd year players, only one of which was a top 10 pick to have the experience/talent required to be a contender.  The bench is almost exclusively young guys that are no where near their finished products (and that doesn't account for Brown either who is still on his rookie contract and growing).  I mean the team has just 4 players with at least 5 years experience. 

Ainge quite simply built this team knowing it wasn't going to really compete for a title.   He is hoping that either Brown, or more like Tatum, develops into a player capable of realistically leading a team to the promised land and hopes when that happens some of the other young players are ready to being contributors at that level.