Author Topic: Enes Kanter deserves some love  (Read 15111 times)

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Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2020, 12:27:58 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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The downside is Kanter also couldn't stop Embiid in their last game in Boston.

Kanter scored 20 but Embiid got 38 points.
Why the heck are you citing his overall point total when evaluating how well Enes played on defense?

Do you remember that game? Kanter did very well versus Embiid, Embiid is shooting 38% when Enes has matched up with him in the two games we have played versus Philly. Held him under a point per possession in the post.

We lost that game because our wings didn’t preform, not because of Kanter.

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2020, 12:58:06 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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The Celtics play with one big most of the time that Theis is on the court but Kanter tends to be on the court more often with another big such as Ojeleye.  I have been skeptical of the one big line up but the Celtics for the most part seem to be making this work, at least when Theis is that one big.

I wouldn’t call Ojeleye (and Grant Williams) bigs, but I admit that it’s better than calling them wings. What about ’swings’?

I also understand your skepticism about one-big lineups, especially since Theis is not a very big big. Also noteworthy is their tendency to finish halves with an ultra-small lineup with Grant as the ‘5’. Tatum has really upped his game on the defensive end, and now whoever’s guarding him has got to deal with him off the dribble; and Brown/Hayward/Tatum have upped their game on the defensive glass.

I don't understand why they feel Theis is the guy for the one big role and Kanter more often out there with a second big.  Or why they feel that they need to limit Kanter to 20 min or so if he is playing well and not getting into foul trouble.  They don't seem to want Theis and Kanter on the court at the same time so I guess that limits minutes some.

These are good questions. Here’s what I see:

To your first question: putting Semi out there with Enes gives you better paint protection. Semi is not a shot-blocker, but he does lots of those little things like bumping the roll-man, poking at the ball, getting in front of the driver, and deflections. Kanter makes up for Grant and Semi’s deficiencies on the defensive board. Theis has been really good at paint-protection on his own.

To your third question: Kanter/Theis lineups won’t be giving you enough challenges at the 3-pt line. Ojeleye has the footspeed to do that. From the beginning of Brad Stevens’ tenure in Boston, guarding out to the arc has been a priority.


I still have questions about how far we can go based on our bigs even with Kanter playing well and improving.  We can put two bigs out against second units but there is not enough skill in our bigs to match up against first units.  For example, Kanter might be fine as the second big alongside a Horford type skilled big (like Horford and Baynes).  With our current roster, we can't afford to have two bigs out there as our main unit, we give up too much skill so we trade skill for size.

Boston’s strength is: a ballhandler, three wings, and whatever Marcus Smart is. The predictable refrain of trade proposals to dump one or two of these core guys for a more or less skilled big will continue, of course, but the Celtics appear to like what they’re getting from their smaller team - and the results so far back that up.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2020, 01:17:34 PM »

Offline bellerephon

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I honestly don't think more Semi is going to be part of the answer. He's improved his shooting, which is very important, but his value is still limited. He's an end of the bench guy, not a rotation guy. They play Theis because the defense is excellent when Theis is in the lineup. It causes problems against Embiid, but against the vast majority of teams the defense is at its best with Theis. Kanter is playing the right amount of mpg and in the right situations. He's playing well, but let's not go overboard, the role he has now is the right one.

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2020, 01:50:01 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Yeah, while Brad will task Semi to occasionally defend bigs, he's most definitely a wing in almost all other respects.

FWIW, Kanter has played about 150 minutes as the obvious only big, another 165 minutes with Semi as a 'big wing' and another 109 minutes with Grant next to him.

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Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2020, 12:36:16 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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Yeah, while Brad will task Semi to occasionally defend bigs, he's most definitely a wing in almost all other respects.

Exactly. He’s a swing. For example, he was on Marvin Williams (6’8”, 237) a fair amount, a typical assignment. He also spent time on P.J. Washington  (6’7”, 236) and a little on Dwayne Bacon (6’6”, 220). Williams and Washington aren’t bigs, but typical wings are giving up 20 or more pounds to guard them. This is why Grant, who’s a rookie, and Semi are getting rotation minutes in a Celtics lineup whose strength is its wings.

He allows Tatum to be a ‘small forward’ in the last part of the first quarter, using his size against a smaller defender. Semi can switch up or down, mix it up or guard out to the arc.

FWIW, Kanter has played about 150 minutes as the obvious only big, another 165 minutes with Semi as a 'big wing' and another 109 minutes with Grant next to him.

‘Big wing’ works for me, though on the whole I prefer to say ‘swing’.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2020, 12:40:49 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Marvin Williams has been playing PF for what 5 years now? Maybe 6? I don't understand the hesitation to call him a PF aka big.

His most common match ups are:

Markeiff Morris
Blake Griffin
Mikal Bridges
Thad Young
Kevin Love
Bjelica

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2020, 01:14:31 PM »

Offline rollie mass

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I just re watched 4th quarter of Hornets game and Kanter was playing defence like I have never seen him  before.

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2020, 02:45:02 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Kanter has been playing much better.  I like what he brings.  I just feel we need a second (or maybe a first) true starting skilled big.  Look at the following top teams and the two bigs that they start:

Milwaukee:  Antetokounmpo-B.Lopez
Lakers:  Davis-McGee
Miami:  Leonard-Adebayo
Denver:  Millsap-Jokic
Clippers:  George-Zubac
Houston:  Tucker-Capela
Toronto:  Siakam-Gasol
Dallas:  Powell-Porzingis
Utah:  Bogdanovic-Gobert
Philly:  Horford-Embiid

That is the top 10 teams excluding the Celtics (who are third).  You could nit pick and say that Paul George is not a true "big" and maybe Tucker on Houston but it is a pretty clear trend that all of these top teams (other than the Celtics and the Jazz) play either two that are clearly bigs or one big and one that is at worst a long swing.  (The pairings represent the most used 5-man unit for each team)  The two big line up is still the most successful.  And most of these pairings are one big more of a center and one more of a PF.

The Celtics are playing to their strength.  They have no choice.  And their strength is pretty strong.



Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2020, 05:44:43 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Been on the Kanter-hype train since we signed him. At 2/10M, the guy is an absolute bargain for what he can give us.

I also look at how fantastic he was in the Blazers postseason run last season. We haven't had a big who can rebound at an elite level for a long time (not even with Horford/Baynes). You can question his defense, but honestly he's actually been alright on defense for the last 1.5 seasons now. That's good enough as long as he can score and rebound well. We have other bigs (when healthy) who can defend well.

I still think we need to add another big before the playoffs (whether through small trade or buyout). Definitely can't have enough depth. We should know this very well lol. It was a bit of a shaky start for Kanter (also due to injury), but now it looks like he's settled in and showing what he can do.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 05:51:49 PM by Phantom255x »
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Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2020, 05:58:11 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Kanter was projected to have a regular season WAR of 1.9 according to 538’s preseason projections. WAR is a counting stat, and he’s already at 1.5 despite having missed a good chunk of time.  He’s on pace to more than double his projected WAR if he plays a similar amount of minutes and games as he has to date, and his per-minute WAR is triple the forecast.

He’s also one of three Celtics regulars to have a positive rating both offensively and defensively in 538’s new RAPTOR stat, along with Jayson, Jaylen, and Marcus.

538 isn’t the be all and end all, but he’s vastly exceeding their neutral expectations, at both ends of the floor.

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2020, 11:03:52 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Kanter with 14 points and 11 rebounds. I think I heard Mike Gorman say Kanter leads the league in double doubles off the bench. Now averaging 8.8/7.9 with 0.9 blocks in just 18 minutes a game and now is averaging 11.6/11.5 over last 9 games.

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2020, 11:32:57 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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The downside is Kanter also couldn't stop Embiid in their last game in Boston.

Kanter scored 20 but Embiid got 38 points.
Why the heck are you citing his overall point total when evaluating how well Enes played on defense?

Do you remember that game? Kanter did very well versus Embiid, Embiid is shooting 38% when Enes has matched up with him in the two games we have played versus Philly. Held him under a point per possession in the post.

We lost that game because our wings didn’t preform, not because of Kanter.

Good lucky trying to get it through him.

Kanter with 14 points and 11 rebounds. I think I heard Mike Gorman say Kanter leads the league in double doubles off the bench. Now averaging 8.8/7.9 with 0.9 blocks in just 18 minutes a game and now is averaging 11.6/11.5 over last 9 games.

If he continues that, he will be worth mentioning for 6th man of the year. Although worth noting that he isnt even the best bench player on his own team. That belongs to Smart who has played a lot of starter games.

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2020, 12:26:27 AM »

Offline trickybilly

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Wow. Enes is having a career year in per 36 for rebounds, fg%, blocks, and turnovers.
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Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2020, 01:07:46 AM »

Offline Fierce1

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You have to give Brad Stevens credit for replacing Kanter with Theis when there was only over a minute left in the 4th.

Kanter was playing well, but Brad still yanked him in favor of Theis.

I really thought Brad would let Kanter finish the 4th qtr.

Turns out Theis ended up blocking Trae's 3-pointer, with 3 secs remaining, that would have given the Hawks the lead if he made it.

But no doubt Kanter really played well coming off the bench against the Hawks.

Re: Enes Kanter deserves some love
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2020, 01:24:15 AM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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You have to give Brad Stevens credit for replacing Kanter with Theis when there was only over a minute left in the 4th.

Kanter was playing well, but Brad still yanked him in favor of Theis.

I really thought Brad would let Kanter finish the 4th qtr.

Turns out Theis ended up blocking Trae's 3-pointer, with 3 secs remaining, that would have given the Hawks the lead if he made it.

But no doubt Kanter really played well coming off the bench against the Hawks.

We remember the last block because it was THE block but Theis got a block the defensive possession before that too. Theis saved the hell outta us!
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