Author Topic: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional  (Read 8528 times)

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Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2019, 01:10:55 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Our starting line up of Kemba, the three wings, and Theis has a +26 Net Rating. Why in the world do you want to change it?

All of our best 5 man units involve Kemba/Tatum/Hayward and then you plug in either Kanter/Theis and Brown/Smart.

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2019, 09:20:59 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Our starting line up of Kemba, the three wings, and Theis has a +26 Net Rating. Why in the world do you want to change it?

All of our best 5 man units involve Kemba/Tatum/Hayward and then you plug in either Kanter/Theis and Brown/Smart.

You know a team is not only about the starters right?

Where is the production off the bench?

Unless in your fantasy world the bench doesnt count

+26?  Whoopee

Why is the team 0-5 against teams that are over 500 (on the road)?

Why couldnt the Celts beat the Pacers and 76ers?

But if beating the Hornets and other crappy teams because the starters are a + 26, makes you happy... thats great

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2019, 11:51:04 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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If there was a way to remove Tommy points I would do it or this thread. You don't start lesser players simply because you think it might be a better mix. Putting better players on the bench makes it harder to play those guys big minutes (ie, its harder to play 38 of 42 minutes then 38 of 48 minutes). You certainly dont fix the problem by adding two non shooters to the starting unit.

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2019, 01:23:58 AM »

Offline gouki88

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No.

so you want to keep losing?

ok cool

If you read what I wrote

Walker and Tatum are being over extended
Lol. We've lost two in a row and we've missed our best defender, and Hayward missing some of the Indy game.

So your response is to blow up our starting lineup and start two guys who are painfully not ready for it...  ::)
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Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2019, 03:52:17 AM »

Offline LilRip

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What CBS really needs to do is start building chemistry from here on out and stop tinkering with lineups. The first 25% of the season is done. Hopefully by now, he’s established who’s ready for minutes and which combinations work well, no?

Here are my rotation players:
1. Kemba
2. Brown
3. Tatum
4. Hayward
5. Theis
6. Smart
7. Wanamaker*
8. Ojeleye*
9. Kanter*
———
Situational:
Depending on the opponent, you can play those with asterisks more/less/not at all and use someone like Timelord (for rim protection) or Javonte Green (for energy) or GW (p&r defense) instead.

And honestly, from the top 9 players we have, only Kanter is a defensive liability. We’re a good team with solid depth. Rebounding will continue to be a sore spot regardless of who we have on the floor so we need the whole team crashing the boards.
- LilRip

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2019, 04:58:48 AM »

Offline ozgod

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I must say this is one of the funnier Triboy threads   :laugh: sometimes this forum is funnier when we're losing than when we're winning  ;D [dang] the Jays for picking last game to play their worst, otherwise we would have gone into this 5 day break in a much better mood  :angel:

Back to topic, I think it's really less to do with who starts than who gets the most minutes. And in terms of that, I'd suggest it would be like a "horses for courses" type selection that would depend on matchups. E.g. for a team like Philly where they will run more post ups than anyone else in the league Kanter would probably be the main guy to try to negate that. But for others in the league that live on P&R then Theis and GWill are pretty solid defenders as they can switch on to guards and wings. If there's a team that attacks the rim a lot then we'll have someone like Timelord. It probably doesn't make sense to start GWill and Timelord together when they contribute very little to nothing offensively and their inability to stretch the floor will make it harder for Gordon and Jaylen to attack the basket the way they've been doing so this year. At least Theis can pick and pop.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 05:35:23 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2019, 10:03:52 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Back to topic, I think it's really less to do with who starts than who gets the most minutes. And in terms of that, I'd suggest it would be like a "horses for courses" type selection that would depend on matchups. E.g. for a team like Philly where they will run more post ups than anyone else in the league Kanter would probably be the main guy to try to negate that. But for others in the league that live on P&R then Theis and GWill are pretty solid defenders as they can switch on to guards and wings. If there's a team that attacks the rim a lot then we'll have someone like Timelord. It probably doesn't make sense to start GWill and Timelord together when they contribute very little to nothing offensively and their inability to stretch the floor will make it harder for Gordon and Jaylen to attack the basket the way they've been doing so this year. At least Theis can pick and pop.

I guess you already forgot Timelord Alley  hoop dunk threat. Tip ins. Getting an actual offensive rebound. Cant believe folks actually think Theis is better than Timelord..  he has more experience and sometimes can make an open 3. Thats it.

Gwill and Timelord havent shown much on offense because Stevens creates zero plays for them. And the other players dont pass the ball

They are young/rookies. But not zero offensive players.

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2019, 11:16:59 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Back to topic, I think it's really less to do with who starts than who gets the most minutes. And in terms of that, I'd suggest it would be like a "horses for courses" type selection that would depend on matchups. E.g. for a team like Philly where they will run more post ups than anyone else in the league Kanter would probably be the main guy to try to negate that. But for others in the league that live on P&R then Theis and GWill are pretty solid defenders as they can switch on to guards and wings. If there's a team that attacks the rim a lot then we'll have someone like Timelord. It probably doesn't make sense to start GWill and Timelord together when they contribute very little to nothing offensively and their inability to stretch the floor will make it harder for Gordon and Jaylen to attack the basket the way they've been doing so this year. At least Theis can pick and pop.

I guess you already forgot Timelord Alley  hoop dunk threat. Tip ins. Getting an actual offensive rebound. Cant believe folks actually think Theis is better than Timelord..  he has more experience and sometimes can make an open 3. Thats it.

Gwill and Timelord havent shown much on offense because Stevens creates zero plays for them. And the other players dont pass the ball

They are young/rookies. But not zero offensive players.
I agree with absolutely nothing you wrote here, triboy, except the bolded. Timelord and Grant are young.

Theis is a much better player than Timelord. You mention Timelord's alleys and tip ins. That and putting back the occasional offensive rebound is about the only thing he does offensively. TL has made 33 FGs, 25 of which were layups or dunks. He has 6 FGs from 3-10 feet and 2 FGs from 16-23 feet. And, TL is a terrible FT shooter.

Theis meanwhile scores and shoots well from basically all distances and the FT line. Theis has better honed passing skills. He is almost as good as TL on the offensive boards, as a rebounder as a whole and has been racking up blocks at a very similar rate as Williams. He also knows the defense better, plays much, much better team defense and has shown to be much less likely to have brain farts, leave his man chasing blocks or missing switches. Theis is just a smarter player.

Simply put, whether by eye test or stats, Theis has been a better player than Williams this year. Now, Theis is what he is. Timelord has a much higher ceiling if he develops more, so Williams could eventually become better than Theis, but he isn't a better player now.

The Williams boys haven't shown much on offense because they are not very good offensive players, not because Stevens doesn't run offense for them. Heck, often both Williams' are involved in Stevens three man weave on offense while Brown, Tatum and other much better offensive players sit in the corner being a decoy.

TL's offense I have discussed. He is extremely limited to offense within 10 feet of the basket without any real post game. Grant is a terrible outside shooter and because of his lack of size, length and jumping ability is a major liability as a post scorer as he gets swallowed up. Neither can create offense for themselves.

Both players derive their offense with over 71% of their FGs being assisted. Both have usage rates over 12%. So people are passing to them when they are on the floor and they are getting decent touches. They simply are the 5th option on offense or 4th and 5th options when on the court together because they are the worst offensive players on the court.

Putting either Williams into the starting lineup is a terrible move. Putting both in the starting lineup while benching Theis and Brown, who is playing like an All-Star, is lunacy that might lose Stevens the locker room and his job.

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2019, 11:52:45 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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Back to topic, I think it's really less to do with who starts than who gets the most minutes. And in terms of that, I'd suggest it would be like a "horses for courses" type selection that would depend on matchups. E.g. for a team like Philly where they will run more post ups than anyone else in the league Kanter would probably be the main guy to try to negate that. But for others in the league that live on P&R then Theis and GWill are pretty solid defenders as they can switch on to guards and wings. If there's a team that attacks the rim a lot then we'll have someone like Timelord. It probably doesn't make sense to start GWill and Timelord together when they contribute very little to nothing offensively and their inability to stretch the floor will make it harder for Gordon and Jaylen to attack the basket the way they've been doing so this year. At least Theis can pick and pop.

I guess you already forgot Timelord Alley  hoop dunk threat. Tip ins. Getting an actual offensive rebound. Cant believe folks actually think Theis is better than Timelord..  he has more experience and sometimes can make an open 3. Thats it.

Gwill and Timelord havent shown much on offense because Stevens creates zero plays for them. And the other players dont pass the ball

They are young/rookies. But not zero offensive players.

No, not zero offensive players, you’re right. The issue I was pointing to is that they’re not good outside shooters. You can adjust your offense to having one on the floor, but two at a time mostly wrecks your spacing.

I believe in both those guys - in their future, anyway. They’re getting significant minutes because of what they could be, more than what they are. I’ll point to just a couple of things that I don’t see posters commenting on.

Grant has rebounded like a point guard. Carsen Edwards has been better. Crashing the offensive board in the Raptors game seems like a distant memory; it looked like he was going to step into the old ‘garbage man’ role, but since then almost nothing. More egregious is the lack of production on the defensive board...

Rob’s big failing on the offensive end, in my view, is turnovers. We love the ball movement, and the adventures in dribbling sometimes yield spectacular results; like those, he’ll get the offensive fouls under control over time. There’s just no substitute for court time, and the coaching staff has decided that they’ll live with the mistakes to get him out there; but starter’s minutes are out of the question.

I’ll just add that he’s been awfully foul-prone - 21 shooting fouls in his 269 minutes.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 11:58:06 AM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2019, 11:54:57 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Our starting line up of Kemba, the three wings, and Theis has a +26 Net Rating. Why in the world do you want to change it?

All of our best 5 man units involve Kemba/Tatum/Hayward and then you plug in either Kanter/Theis and Brown/Smart.

He just wants his binkies in the starting line-up, don't read too much into it.

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2019, 07:38:43 PM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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sorry...







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Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2019, 09:10:06 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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LOL Fun is fun, talking and having an opinion to share and everything, but when you seriously begin believing you're a brighter basketball mind than Brad Stevens you need to take a reality pill. He has been chosen to coach an NBA basketball franchise worth a Billion dollars. I'm sure he see's the entire picture.

I have a friend, he tried to play organized basketball, but couldn't...he just wasn't as good as he thought he was. The players on the team liked him, he's a good person, funny, easy to be around, so they made him coach. He stormed around the sidelines throwing his pad on the floor, yelled at the officials like he knew what he was talking about. Called timeouts for no apparent reason. He thought he was a coach.

Now all he talks about are his coaching days. He believes he is a former basketball coach with a viable opinion.  :angel:

 




Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2019, 10:20:35 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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LOL Fun is fun, talking and having an opinion to share and everything, but when you seriously begin believing you're a brighter basketball mind than Brad Stevens you need to take a reality pill. He has been chosen to coach an NBA basketball franchise worth a Billion dollars. I'm sure he see's the entire picture.

I have a friend, he tried to play organized basketball, but couldn't...he just wasn't as good as he thought he was. The players on the team liked him, he's a good person, funny, easy to be around, so they made him coach. He stormed around the sidelines throwing his pad on the floor, yelled at the officials like he knew what he was talking about. Called timeouts for no apparent reason. He thought he was a coach.

Now all he talks about are his coaching days. He believes he is a former basketball coach with a viable opinion.  :angel:

Brad Stevens failed last season

There are issues at times regarding the rotations and timeouts

I think overall he is a good coach. But he tries to please the stars too much. They have zero accountability... like Irving last season and Tatum
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 10:44:56 PM by Tr1boy »

Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2019, 10:59:16 PM »

Offline Larry for 3

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LOL Fun is fun, talking and having an opinion to share and everything, but when you seriously begin believing you're a brighter basketball mind than Brad Stevens you need to take a reality pill. He has been chosen to coach an NBA basketball franchise worth a Billion dollars. I'm sure he see's the entire picture.

I have a friend, he tried to play organized basketball, but couldn't...he just wasn't as good as he thought he was. The players on the team liked him, he's a good person, funny, easy to be around, so they made him coach. He stormed around the sidelines throwing his pad on the floor, yelled at the officials like he knew what he was talking about. Called timeouts for no apparent reason. He thought he was a coach.

Now all he talks about are his coaching days. He believes he is a former basketball coach with a viable opinion.  :angel:

Brad Stevens failed last season

There are issues at times regarding the rotations and timeouts

I think overall he is a good coach. But he tries to please the stars too much. They have zero accountability... like Irving last season and Tatum

And Smart and his at times horrible shot selection
"They forgot about Larry Bird"--- Danny Ainge, 1987

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Re: Brad Stevens should change the rotation - make it functional
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2019, 12:32:55 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Larry for 3

I'm just flabbergasted you identified Marcus Smart as the one having shot selection issues last year. Just think about the shot selection of the players below last year!

Jayson Tatum
Marcus Morris
Terry Rozier
Kyrie Irving
Jaylen Brown (at the start of the year and when first coming off the bench)

Marcus took the least shots of ANY rotation player on a per possession/minute basis. Semi/Baynes got up shots at a higher rate than him for goodness sake. He had the lowest usage of the entire team among regular rotation players, only Semi/Timelord had lower usage.

And when he did take shots he had a career high offensive rating, TS% and 3PT%!!!