Who's available that we can get at C

[keevsnick]

Me, confused: Maybe not, though. Man, I don’t know. I just don’t. Embiid was incredible the other night. He really was.

To me, this portrays the 'irrational' response.   It points out exactly the kind of reactive (emotional) thinking that we should hope Danny & Brad do NOT follow.

Because while Embiid was indeed great, we did not lose that game because of our center position.   In a combined 48 minutes, Kanter & Theis combined to post 36 points on _very_ efficient shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds -- all without consuming very many possessions.   They didn't stop Embiid.  But nobody was stopping them either.

We lost the game because we had the convergence of the occasional bad game by not just one but both our two Jays.   When both those two guys produce stinkers in the same game, that's just too high of an obstacle to overcome, especially against a good team.

If either Jaylen or Jayson had produced his average output, we probably win.  If they both do, then we definitely win.

So while it's fair to ask the question of whether Boston needs to add a center, it's important to not over-react to one game like that.

I'd say this is actually a good argument for why we DO need a center upgrade. Because despite that performance from our centers the Cs  still got outplayed at center, and you can't expect that production from our centers during the course of a 7 game series.  Embiid ability too be the focal point of his offense and generate easy points for others in part because the C's had to double team is a major reason the Phili offense which is usually medicore was good that night.

No, that's not what those numbers tell us.   Kanter and Theis produced nearly those points in the same 48 minutes -- but with far fewer possessions being used.   During those same 48 minutes, Embiid (and Quinn) used far more possessions.  On the BOS offensive side, the difference in those possessions used (within those same 48 minutes) was being utilized through other players:  mainly Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon.

What needed to happen within the difference of those possessions was for our actual stars to produce more with them.   
 
You don't need to win at all 5 positions.   You need to win at the positions you are great at and hold serve on the others.   We held serve at the 5, but we didn't win at two of our wing slots.
 

I just dont think we "held serve" at the five. The impact Joel Embiid made on that game was a magnitude greater than the impact our centers made. Every shot Theis and Kanter take is a shot our wings could be taking, they arent value added buckets. They may have had an efficient night but as I said I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one. Looking at how many point per possession a guy scored just doesn't take into effect the points added through double teams on Embiid he broke with his passing, or the many terrible floaters he forces with his presence from a guy like Tatum. In other words our bigs had their best possible night, and they still weren't better than phillis bigs without Horford. That is a problem. Doesn't mean the C's can't beat them in other wyas, but I dont wnat to pretend ike the center psoiton payed to a draw.

[trickybilly]

Any chance (or interest) we could pry John Collins away from Atlanta?

Alex Len might be worth a gamble.

[Hoopvortex]

Me, confused: Maybe not, though. Man, I don’t know. I just don’t. Embiid was incredible the other night. He really was.

To me, this portrays the 'irrational' response.   It points out exactly the kind of reactive (emotional) thinking that we should hope Danny & Brad do NOT follow.

Because while Embiid was indeed great, we did not lose that game because of our center position.   In a combined 48 minutes, Kanter & Theis combined to post 36 points on _very_ efficient shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds -- all without consuming very many possessions.   They didn't stop Embiid.  But nobody was stopping them either.

We lost the game because we had the convergence of the occasional bad game by not just one but both our two Jays.   When both those two guys produce stinkers in the same game, that's just too high of an obstacle to overcome, especially against a good team.

If either Jaylen or Jayson had produced his average output, we probably win.  If they both do, then we definitely win.

So while it's fair to ask the question of whether Boston needs to add a center, it's important to not over-react to one game like that.

I'd say this is actually a good argument for why we DO need a center upgrade. Because despite that performance from our centers the Cs  still got outplayed at center, and you can't expect that production from our centers during the course of a 7 game series.  Embiid ability too be the focal point of his offense and generate easy points for others in part because the C's had to double team is a major reason the Phili offense which is usually medicore was good that night.

No, that's not what those numbers tell us.   Kanter and Theis produced nearly those points in the same 48 minutes -- but with far fewer possessions being used.   During those same 48 minutes, Embiid (and Quinn) used far more possessions.  On the BOS offensive side, the difference in those possessions used (within those same 48 minutes) was being utilized through other players:  mainly Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon.

What needed to happen within the difference of those possessions was for our actual stars to produce more with them.   
 
You don't need to win at all 5 positions.   You need to win at the positions you are great at and hold serve on the others.   We held serve at the 5, but we didn't win at two of our wing slots.
 

I just dont think we "held serve" at the five. The impact Joel Embiid made on that game was a magnitude greater than the impact our centers made. Every shot Theis and Kanter take is a shot our wings could be taking, they arent value added buckets. They may have had an efficient night but as I said I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one. Looking at how many point per possession a guy scored just doesn't take into effect the points added through double teams on Embiid he broke with his passing, or the many terrible floaters he forces with his presence from a guy like Tatum. In other words our bigs had their best possible night, and they still weren't better than phillis bigs without Horford. That is a problem. Doesn't mean the C's can't beat them in other wyas, but I dont wnat to pretend ike the center psoiton payed to a draw.

Tatum’s floater is a work in progress. It’s one of the things he added in the off-season and he’s working it in. The technique looks weird but I’d ask him to keep taking it. He needs to expand his paint repertoire now that he’s driving more (the jab-step is more reliable for him, but he needs to mix it up).

When it starts dropping - it will - he’ll be a lot harder to guard. Now if he could only get a foul çall once in a while...

[Somebody]

Me, confused: Maybe not, though. Man, I don’t know. I just don’t. Embiid was incredible the other night. He really was.

To me, this portrays the 'irrational' response.   It points out exactly the kind of reactive (emotional) thinking that we should hope Danny & Brad do NOT follow.

Because while Embiid was indeed great, we did not lose that game because of our center position.   In a combined 48 minutes, Kanter & Theis combined to post 36 points on _very_ efficient shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds -- all without consuming very many possessions.   They didn't stop Embiid.  But nobody was stopping them either.

We lost the game because we had the convergence of the occasional bad game by not just one but both our two Jays.   When both those two guys produce stinkers in the same game, that's just too high of an obstacle to overcome, especially against a good team.

If either Jaylen or Jayson had produced his average output, we probably win.  If they both do, then we definitely win.

So while it's fair to ask the question of whether Boston needs to add a center, it's important to not over-react to one game like that.

I'd say this is actually a good argument for why we DO need a center upgrade. Because despite that performance from our centers the Cs  still got outplayed at center, and you can't expect that production from our centers during the course of a 7 game series.  Embiid ability too be the focal point of his offense and generate easy points for others in part because the C's had to double team is a major reason the Phili offense which is usually medicore was good that night.

No, that's not what those numbers tell us.   Kanter and Theis produced nearly those points in the same 48 minutes -- but with far fewer possessions being used.   During those same 48 minutes, Embiid (and Quinn) used far more possessions.  On the BOS offensive side, the difference in those possessions used (within those same 48 minutes) was being utilized through other players:  mainly Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon.

What needed to happen within the difference of those possessions was for our actual stars to produce more with them.   
 
You don't need to win at all 5 positions.   You need to win at the positions you are great at and hold serve on the others.   We held serve at the 5, but we didn't win at two of our wing slots.
 

I just dont think we "held serve" at the five. The impact Joel Embiid made on that game was a magnitude greater than the impact our centers made. Every shot Theis and Kanter take is a shot our wings could be taking, they arent value added buckets. They may have had an efficient night but as I said I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one. Looking at how many point per possession a guy scored just doesn't take into effect the points added through double teams on Embiid he broke with his passing, or the many terrible floaters he forces with his presence from a guy like Tatum. In other words our bigs had their best possible night, and they still weren't better than phillis bigs without Horford. That is a problem. Doesn't mean the C's can't beat them in other wyas, but I dont wnat to pretend ike the center psoiton payed to a draw.

Tatum’s floater is a work in progress. It’s one of the things he added in the off-season and he’s working it in. The technique looks weird but I’d ask him to keep taking it. He needs to expand his paint repertoire now that he’s driving more (the jab-step is more reliable for him, but he needs to mix it up).

When it starts dropping - it will - he’ll be a lot harder to guard. Now if he could only get a foul çall once in a while...

Or he could put on some more muscle to graduate to the ~235 pound weight class of wings and start creating separation through contact, that will make inside shots much easier for him (as well as draw more fouls).

[mrceltics2013]

Ayton for Tatum 😂

[Surferdad]

Me, confused: Maybe not, though. Man, I don’t know. I just don’t. Embiid was incredible the other night. He really was.

To me, this portrays the 'irrational' response.   It points out exactly the kind of reactive (emotional) thinking that we should hope Danny & Brad do NOT follow.

Because while Embiid was indeed great, we did not lose that game because of our center position.   In a combined 48 minutes, Kanter & Theis combined to post 36 points on _very_ efficient shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds -- all without consuming very many possessions.   They didn't stop Embiid.  But nobody was stopping them either.

We lost the game because we had the convergence of the occasional bad game by not just one but both our two Jays.   When both those two guys produce stinkers in the same game, that's just too high of an obstacle to overcome, especially against a good team.

If either Jaylen or Jayson had produced his average output, we probably win.  If they both do, then we definitely win.

So while it's fair to ask the question of whether Boston needs to add a center, it's important to not over-react to one game like that.

I'd say this is actually a good argument for why we DO need a center upgrade. Because despite that performance from our centers the Cs  still got outplayed at center, and you can't expect that production from our centers during the course of a 7 game series.  Embiid ability too be the focal point of his offense and generate easy points for others in part because the C's had to double team is a major reason the Phili offense which is usually medicore was good that night.

No, that's not what those numbers tell us.   Kanter and Theis produced nearly those points in the same 48 minutes -- but with far fewer possessions being used.   During those same 48 minutes, Embiid (and Quinn) used far more possessions.  On the BOS offensive side, the difference in those possessions used (within those same 48 minutes) was being utilized through other players:  mainly Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon.

What needed to happen within the difference of those possessions was for our actual stars to produce more with them.   
 
You don't need to win at all 5 positions.   You need to win at the positions you are great at and hold serve on the others.   We held serve at the 5, but we didn't win at two of our wing slots.
 

I just dont think we "held serve" at the five. The impact Joel Embiid made on that game was a magnitude greater than the impact our centers made. Every shot Theis and Kanter take is a shot our wings could be taking, they arent value added buckets. They may have had an efficient night but as I said I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one. Looking at how many point per possession a guy scored just doesn't take into effect the points added through double teams on Embiid he broke with his passing, or the many terrible floaters he forces with his presence from a guy like Tatum. In other words our bigs had their best possible night, and they still weren't better than phillis bigs without Horford. That is a problem. Doesn't mean the C's can't beat them in other wyas, but I dont wnat to pretend ike the center psoiton payed to a draw.

Yes, YES.  This is what I was trying to say as well.  There is simply no reason to not blame the center position, after all Embiid did score 38 points and he dominated the last 4 minutes of the game which are the most important minutes in a close game.

[mmmmm]

Me, confused: Maybe not, though. Man, I don’t know. I just don’t. Embiid was incredible the other night. He really was.

To me, this portrays the 'irrational' response.   It points out exactly the kind of reactive (emotional) thinking that we should hope Danny & Brad do NOT follow.

Because while Embiid was indeed great, we did not lose that game because of our center position.   In a combined 48 minutes, Kanter & Theis combined to post 36 points on _very_ efficient shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds -- all without consuming very many possessions.   They didn't stop Embiid.  But nobody was stopping them either.

We lost the game because we had the convergence of the occasional bad game by not just one but both our two Jays.   When both those two guys produce stinkers in the same game, that's just too high of an obstacle to overcome, especially against a good team.

If either Jaylen or Jayson had produced his average output, we probably win.  If they both do, then we definitely win.

So while it's fair to ask the question of whether Boston needs to add a center, it's important to not over-react to one game like that.

I'd say this is actually a good argument for why we DO need a center upgrade. Because despite that performance from our centers the Cs  still got outplayed at center, and you can't expect that production from our centers during the course of a 7 game series.  Embiid ability too be the focal point of his offense and generate easy points for others in part because the C's had to double team is a major reason the Phili offense which is usually medicore was good that night.

No, that's not what those numbers tell us.   Kanter and Theis produced nearly those points in the same 48 minutes -- but with far fewer possessions being used.   During those same 48 minutes, Embiid (and Quinn) used far more possessions.  On the BOS offensive side, the difference in those possessions used (within those same 48 minutes) was being utilized through other players:  mainly Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon.

What needed to happen within the difference of those possessions was for our actual stars to produce more with them.   
 
You don't need to win at all 5 positions.   You need to win at the positions you are great at and hold serve on the others.   We held serve at the 5, but we didn't win at two of our wing slots.
 

I just dont think we "held serve" at the five. The impact Joel Embiid made on that game was a magnitude greater than the impact our centers made. Every shot Theis and Kanter take is a shot our wings could be taking, they arent value added buckets. They may have had an efficient night but as I said I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one. Looking at how many point per possession a guy scored just doesn't take into effect the points added through double teams on Embiid he broke with his passing, or the many terrible floaters he forces with his presence from a guy like Tatum. In other words our bigs had their best possible night, and they still weren't better than phillis bigs without Horford. That is a problem. Doesn't mean the C's can't beat them in other wyas, but I dont wnat to pretend ike the center psoiton payed to a draw.

"Every shot"

Look, first off, Kanter and Theis ARE NOT taking too many shots.  Even in this game their USG% was 22% and normally they have USG in the teens.  But against PHI, we already have history (prior games) showing that our centers (Kanter especially) SCORE AT A HIGH EFFICIENCY AGAINST PHILLY.  Thus it made perfect sense for their USG to be somewhat higher in this game.  And that was validated because they did, indeed, score at high efficiency.   So the shots they took most certainly should NOT have been taken by other players.

And second, as I pointed out -- because they did not use anywhere near the number of possessions that the PHI centers did and so, exactly as you want, there were more shots to be taken by our players other than Theis or Kanter.   And we lost because we failed to score as efficiently on THOSE shots.  By our non-centers.

"I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one."

My original point was that we did not lose THIS GAME because of the center position.  I never made a claim of how things might go outside of that.   But when we talk about how well Kanter and Theis have performed overall _outside_ this game, it should be noted that both Kanter and Theis are posting elite scoring efficiencies so far this season (62.5% TS for Kanter, 58.7% TS for Theis).   Yes this game was above that (76.7% & 69.9%, respectively), but it isn't as if they have both been sucking wind all season.   

So I don't think you have made a case at all that we lost THIS GAME because we had Theis and Kanter manning the 5.

And meanwhile, both Jaylen and Jayson very clearly posted one of the worst games for each of them all season on the possessions that they utilized.    Jaylen and Jayson clearly were NOT better than their counterparts on PHI in this game.   They combined to produce just 23 points on 27 FGA (that's horrible efficiency) and grabbed a total of just 8 rebounds and just 1 steal, despite both playing large minutes.  I love both of them, but to deny that they both sucked in THIS game would be silly.

I would be shocked if in a seven game series the Jays _both_ had another simultaneous game as bad or worse than that one.

If we are talking about the future, then I'll accept that sure, it would be great to improve at any position.   But that will probably cost you at another position.   And for it to be a meaningful upgrade, it had better be a 5 who will perform better than Kanter and Theis have already performed on a consistent basis.   And if you are looking for a 5 who will consume more possessions than Kanter & Theis do, then he also needs to perform as well or better than the other guys whose possessions he is taking from.  Or who's spot on the roster he is replacing (via trade).

[keevsnick]

Me, confused: Maybe not, though. Man, I don’t know. I just don’t. Embiid was incredible the other night. He really was.

To me, this portrays the 'irrational' response.   It points out exactly the kind of reactive (emotional) thinking that we should hope Danny & Brad do NOT follow.

Because while Embiid was indeed great, we did not lose that game because of our center position.   In a combined 48 minutes, Kanter & Theis combined to post 36 points on _very_ efficient shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds -- all without consuming very many possessions.   They didn't stop Embiid.  But nobody was stopping them either.

We lost the game because we had the convergence of the occasional bad game by not just one but both our two Jays.   When both those two guys produce stinkers in the same game, that's just too high of an obstacle to overcome, especially against a good team.

If either Jaylen or Jayson had produced his average output, we probably win.  If they both do, then we definitely win.

So while it's fair to ask the question of whether Boston needs to add a center, it's important to not over-react to one game like that.

I'd say this is actually a good argument for why we DO need a center upgrade. Because despite that performance from our centers the Cs  still got outplayed at center, and you can't expect that production from our centers during the course of a 7 game series.  Embiid ability too be the focal point of his offense and generate easy points for others in part because the C's had to double team is a major reason the Phili offense which is usually medicore was good that night.

No, that's not what those numbers tell us.   Kanter and Theis produced nearly those points in the same 48 minutes -- but with far fewer possessions being used.   During those same 48 minutes, Embiid (and Quinn) used far more possessions.  On the BOS offensive side, the difference in those possessions used (within those same 48 minutes) was being utilized through other players:  mainly Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon.

What needed to happen within the difference of those possessions was for our actual stars to produce more with them.   
 
You don't need to win at all 5 positions.   You need to win at the positions you are great at and hold serve on the others.   We held serve at the 5, but we didn't win at two of our wing slots.
 

I just dont think we "held serve" at the five. The impact Joel Embiid made on that game was a magnitude greater than the impact our centers made. Every shot Theis and Kanter take is a shot our wings could be taking, they arent value added buckets. They may have had an efficient night but as I said I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one. Looking at how many point per possession a guy scored just doesn't take into effect the points added through double teams on Embiid he broke with his passing, or the many terrible floaters he forces with his presence from a guy like Tatum. In other words our bigs had their best possible night, and they still weren't better than phillis bigs without Horford. That is a problem. Doesn't mean the C's can't beat them in other wyas, but I dont wnat to pretend ike the center psoiton payed to a draw.

"Every shot"

Look, first off, Kanter and Theis ARE NOT taking too many shots.  Even in this game their USG% was 22% and normally they have USG in the teens.  But against PHI, we already have history (prior games) showing that our centers (Kanter especially) SCORE AT A HIGH EFFICIENCY AGAINST PHILLY.  Thus it made perfect sense for their USG to be somewhat higher in this game.  And that was validated because they did, indeed, score at high efficiency.   So the shots they took most certainly should NOT have been taken by other players.

And second, as I pointed out -- because they did not use anywhere near the number of possessions that the PHI centers did and so, exactly as you want, there were more shots to be taken by our players other than Theis or Kanter.   And we lost because we failed to score as efficiently on THOSE shots.  By our non-centers.

"I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one."

My original point was that we did not lose THIS GAME because of the center position.  I never made a claim of how things might go outside of that.   But when we talk about how well Kanter and Theis have performed overall _outside_ this game, it should be noted that both Kanter and Theis are posting elite scoring efficiencies so far this season (62.5% TS for Kanter, 58.7% TS for Theis).   Yes this game was above that (76.7% & 69.9%, respectively), but it isn't as if they have both been sucking wind all season.   

So I don't think you have made a case at all that we lost THIS GAME because we had Theis and Kanter manning the 5.

And meanwhile, both Jaylen and Jayson very clearly posted one of the worst games for each of them all season on the possessions that they utilized.    Jaylen and Jayson clearly were NOT better than their counterparts on PHI in this game.   They combined to produce just 23 points on 27 FGA (that's horrible efficiency) and grabbed a total of just 8 rebounds and just 1 steal, despite both playing large minutes.  I love both of them, but to deny that they both sucked in THIS game would be silly.

I would be shocked if in a seven game series the Jays _both_ had another simultaneous game as bad or worse than that one.

If we are talking about the future, then I'll accept that sure, it would be great to improve at any position.   But that will probably cost you at another position.   And for it to be a meaningful upgrade, it had better be a 5 who will perform better than Kanter and Theis have already performed on a consistent basis.   And if you are looking for a 5 who will consume more possessions than Kanter & Theis do, then he also needs to perform as well or better than the other guys whose possessions he is taking from.  Or who's spot on the roster he is replacing (via trade).

And again, I think we kind of did. Not because our centers can't provide offense, they did  in this game. But because they dont stand a chance of even remotely slowing down Embiid. And thats the #1 reason this game was lost.

Also the TS% percentages you cite dont reflect the fact that our centers are low usage in general, its not their  efficiency thus game that was ab outlier its the efficiency with this games usage thats not going to sustain, if they went out next game against Embiid and went 6/10 for 14 points it wouldn't surprise me and would in fact be more in line with their general production.

Now to your point the other big reason they lost was the c's wing production, and that is likely to improve. It's entirely possible if you get enough from those guys you can overcome the disparity in the center position over a seven game series. I just want people to acknowledge that the center battle is one the c's are gonna lose in a series as things stand and that its possible its a fatal flaw. And you are probably right, there may not really be a way to fix that issue, buts thats not the same thing as it not being an issue.

And to be clear, again I'm not saying 100% this is gonna be the Celtics undoing. Maybe they get enough from their perimeter guys to overcome the center weakness. Maybe Embiid isnt actually good enough in a 7 game series to REALLY make you pay, or maybe they avoid Phili all together. But last night it was a problem, and it could be moving forward. I'm not really sure theres much the C's can do about it either way.

[mmmmm]

Me, confused: Maybe not, though. Man, I don’t know. I just don’t. Embiid was incredible the other night. He really was.

To me, this portrays the 'irrational' response.   It points out exactly the kind of reactive (emotional) thinking that we should hope Danny & Brad do NOT follow.

Because while Embiid was indeed great, we did not lose that game because of our center position.   In a combined 48 minutes, Kanter & Theis combined to post 36 points on _very_ efficient shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds -- all without consuming very many possessions.   They didn't stop Embiid.  But nobody was stopping them either.

We lost the game because we had the convergence of the occasional bad game by not just one but both our two Jays.   When both those two guys produce stinkers in the same game, that's just too high of an obstacle to overcome, especially against a good team.

If either Jaylen or Jayson had produced his average output, we probably win.  If they both do, then we definitely win.

So while it's fair to ask the question of whether Boston needs to add a center, it's important to not over-react to one game like that.

I'd say this is actually a good argument for why we DO need a center upgrade. Because despite that performance from our centers the Cs  still got outplayed at center, and you can't expect that production from our centers during the course of a 7 game series.  Embiid ability too be the focal point of his offense and generate easy points for others in part because the C's had to double team is a major reason the Phili offense which is usually medicore was good that night.

No, that's not what those numbers tell us.   Kanter and Theis produced nearly those points in the same 48 minutes -- but with far fewer possessions being used.   During those same 48 minutes, Embiid (and Quinn) used far more possessions.  On the BOS offensive side, the difference in those possessions used (within those same 48 minutes) was being utilized through other players:  mainly Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon.

What needed to happen within the difference of those possessions was for our actual stars to produce more with them.   
 
You don't need to win at all 5 positions.   You need to win at the positions you are great at and hold serve on the others.   We held serve at the 5, but we didn't win at two of our wing slots.
 

I just dont think we "held serve" at the five. The impact Joel Embiid made on that game was a magnitude greater than the impact our centers made. Every shot Theis and Kanter take is a shot our wings could be taking, they arent value added buckets. They may have had an efficient night but as I said I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one. Looking at how many point per possession a guy scored just doesn't take into effect the points added through double teams on Embiid he broke with his passing, or the many terrible floaters he forces with his presence from a guy like Tatum. In other words our bigs had their best possible night, and they still weren't better than phillis bigs without Horford. That is a problem. Doesn't mean the C's can't beat them in other wyas, but I dont wnat to pretend ike the center psoiton payed to a draw.

"Every shot"

Look, first off, Kanter and Theis ARE NOT taking too many shots.  Even in this game their USG% was 22% and normally they have USG in the teens.  But against PHI, we already have history (prior games) showing that our centers (Kanter especially) SCORE AT A HIGH EFFICIENCY AGAINST PHILLY.  Thus it made perfect sense for their USG to be somewhat higher in this game.  And that was validated because they did, indeed, score at high efficiency.   So the shots they took most certainly should NOT have been taken by other players.

And second, as I pointed out -- because they did not use anywhere near the number of possessions that the PHI centers did and so, exactly as you want, there were more shots to be taken by our players other than Theis or Kanter.   And we lost because we failed to score as efficiently on THOSE shots.  By our non-centers.

"I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one."

My original point was that we did not lose THIS GAME because of the center position.  I never made a claim of how things might go outside of that.   But when we talk about how well Kanter and Theis have performed overall _outside_ this game, it should be noted that both Kanter and Theis are posting elite scoring efficiencies so far this season (62.5% TS for Kanter, 58.7% TS for Theis).   Yes this game was above that (76.7% & 69.9%, respectively), but it isn't as if they have both been sucking wind all season.   

So I don't think you have made a case at all that we lost THIS GAME because we had Theis and Kanter manning the 5.

And meanwhile, both Jaylen and Jayson very clearly posted one of the worst games for each of them all season on the possessions that they utilized.    Jaylen and Jayson clearly were NOT better than their counterparts on PHI in this game.   They combined to produce just 23 points on 27 FGA (that's horrible efficiency) and grabbed a total of just 8 rebounds and just 1 steal, despite both playing large minutes.  I love both of them, but to deny that they both sucked in THIS game would be silly.

I would be shocked if in a seven game series the Jays _both_ had another simultaneous game as bad or worse than that one.

If we are talking about the future, then I'll accept that sure, it would be great to improve at any position.   But that will probably cost you at another position.   And for it to be a meaningful upgrade, it had better be a 5 who will perform better than Kanter and Theis have already performed on a consistent basis.   And if you are looking for a 5 who will consume more possessions than Kanter & Theis do, then he also needs to perform as well or better than the other guys whose possessions he is taking from.  Or who's spot on the roster he is replacing (via trade).

And again, I think we kind of did. Not because our centers can't provide offense, they did  in this game. But because they dont stand a chance of even remotely slowing down Embiid. And thats the #1 reason this game was lost.

Also the TS% percentages you cite dont reflect the fact that our centers are low usage in general, its not their  efficiency thus game that was ab outlier its the efficiency with this games usage thats not going to sustain, if they went out next game against Embiid and went 6/10 for 14 points it wouldn't surprise me and would in fact be more in line with their general production.

Now to your point the other big reason they lost was the c's wing production, and that is likely to improve. It's entirely possible if you get enough from those guys you can overcome the disparity in the center position over a seven game series. I just want people to acknowledge that the center battle is one the c's are gonna lose in a series as things stand and that its possible its a fatal flaw. And you are probably right, there may not really be a way to fix that issue, buts thats not the same thing as it not being an issue.

And to be clear, again I'm not saying 100% this is gonna be the Celtics undoing. Maybe they get enough from their perimeter guys to overcome the center weakness. Maybe Embiid isnt actually good enough in a 7 game series to REALLY make you pay, or maybe they avoid Phili all together. But last night it was a problem, and it could be moving forward. I'm not really sure theres much the C's can do about it either way.

You keep swinging back and forth between what happened in THIS game (which is what my original assertion about) and then comments like, "the fact that our centers are low usage in general" and " ... the c's wing production, and that is likely to improve.".

In THIS game, our centers were both highly efficient (well over 70% TS) and of high enough USG (22%) to counter-balance a huge portion of Embiid's offensive production.   In THIS game, both Jaylen and Jayson were both  inefficient and un-productive.

So I will firmly stand on my contention that THIS game was NOT LOST DUE TO OUR CENTERS. 

Leaving that, I want to isolate on this statement:

But because they dont stand a chance of even remotely slowing down Embiid.

If you look at the actual match-up tracking data, you will find that, Theis, yes, did struggle to stop Embiid from scoring.   But Kanter actually has done very well against him both defensively and offensively.

In this game Embiid was only 4 of 11, scoring a total of just 12 points, when defended by Kanter. On the other end, Kanter shot 7 of 9, scoring 14 points, when defended by Embiid.

In the earlier match up, back on Oct 23, Embiid shot only 3 of 7, scoring just 8 points when defended by Kanter while Kanter shot 4 of 7, scoring 9 when defended by Embiid.

[Bobshot]

Center is not this team's most immediate problem.  They're fine with that they have.
Last night Theis had 16, Kanter 20 and Embid had 38.  They held their own.

The bigger problem is their wing depth sucks.

It's about defense at center. Not offense. They nobody to defend Embiid.

[gouki88]

Center is not this team's most immediate problem.  They're fine with that they have.
Last night Theis had 16, Kanter 20 and Embid had 38.  They held their own.

The bigger problem is their wing depth sucks.

It's about defense at center. Not offense. They nobody to defend Embiid.

Kanter actually did quite a good job. Embiid was much less effective when Kanter was on the floor

[keevsnick]

Me, confused: Maybe not, though. Man, I don’t know. I just don’t. Embiid was incredible the other night. He really was.

To me, this portrays the 'irrational' response.   It points out exactly the kind of reactive (emotional) thinking that we should hope Danny & Brad do NOT follow.

Because while Embiid was indeed great, we did not lose that game because of our center position.   In a combined 48 minutes, Kanter & Theis combined to post 36 points on _very_ efficient shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds -- all without consuming very many possessions.   They didn't stop Embiid.  But nobody was stopping them either.

We lost the game because we had the convergence of the occasional bad game by not just one but both our two Jays.   When both those two guys produce stinkers in the same game, that's just too high of an obstacle to overcome, especially against a good team.

If either Jaylen or Jayson had produced his average output, we probably win.  If they both do, then we definitely win.

So while it's fair to ask the question of whether Boston needs to add a center, it's important to not over-react to one game like that.

I'd say this is actually a good argument for why we DO need a center upgrade. Because despite that performance from our centers the Cs  still got outplayed at center, and you can't expect that production from our centers during the course of a 7 game series.  Embiid ability too be the focal point of his offense and generate easy points for others in part because the C's had to double team is a major reason the Phili offense which is usually medicore was good that night.

No, that's not what those numbers tell us.   Kanter and Theis produced nearly those points in the same 48 minutes -- but with far fewer possessions being used.   During those same 48 minutes, Embiid (and Quinn) used far more possessions.  On the BOS offensive side, the difference in those possessions used (within those same 48 minutes) was being utilized through other players:  mainly Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon.

What needed to happen within the difference of those possessions was for our actual stars to produce more with them.   
 
You don't need to win at all 5 positions.   You need to win at the positions you are great at and hold serve on the others.   We held serve at the 5, but we didn't win at two of our wing slots.
 

I just dont think we "held serve" at the five. The impact Joel Embiid made on that game was a magnitude greater than the impact our centers made. Every shot Theis and Kanter take is a shot our wings could be taking, they arent value added buckets. They may have had an efficient night but as I said I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one. Looking at how many point per possession a guy scored just doesn't take into effect the points added through double teams on Embiid he broke with his passing, or the many terrible floaters he forces with his presence from a guy like Tatum. In other words our bigs had their best possible night, and they still weren't better than phillis bigs without Horford. That is a problem. Doesn't mean the C's can't beat them in other wyas, but I dont wnat to pretend ike the center psoiton payed to a draw.

"Every shot"

Look, first off, Kanter and Theis ARE NOT taking too many shots.  Even in this game their USG% was 22% and normally they have USG in the teens.  But against PHI, we already have history (prior games) showing that our centers (Kanter especially) SCORE AT A HIGH EFFICIENCY AGAINST PHILLY.  Thus it made perfect sense for their USG to be somewhat higher in this game.  And that was validated because they did, indeed, score at high efficiency.   So the shots they took most certainly should NOT have been taken by other players.

And second, as I pointed out -- because they did not use anywhere near the number of possessions that the PHI centers did and so, exactly as you want, there were more shots to be taken by our players other than Theis or Kanter.   And we lost because we failed to score as efficiently on THOSE shots.  By our non-centers.

"I would be shocked if in a seven game series they had another game as good or better than that one."

My original point was that we did not lose THIS GAME because of the center position.  I never made a claim of how things might go outside of that.   But when we talk about how well Kanter and Theis have performed overall _outside_ this game, it should be noted that both Kanter and Theis are posting elite scoring efficiencies so far this season (62.5% TS for Kanter, 58.7% TS for Theis).   Yes this game was above that (76.7% & 69.9%, respectively), but it isn't as if they have both been sucking wind all season.   

So I don't think you have made a case at all that we lost THIS GAME because we had Theis and Kanter manning the 5.

And meanwhile, both Jaylen and Jayson very clearly posted one of the worst games for each of them all season on the possessions that they utilized.    Jaylen and Jayson clearly were NOT better than their counterparts on PHI in this game.   They combined to produce just 23 points on 27 FGA (that's horrible efficiency) and grabbed a total of just 8 rebounds and just 1 steal, despite both playing large minutes.  I love both of them, but to deny that they both sucked in THIS game would be silly.

I would be shocked if in a seven game series the Jays _both_ had another simultaneous game as bad or worse than that one.

If we are talking about the future, then I'll accept that sure, it would be great to improve at any position.   But that will probably cost you at another position.   And for it to be a meaningful upgrade, it had better be a 5 who will perform better than Kanter and Theis have already performed on a consistent basis.   And if you are looking for a 5 who will consume more possessions than Kanter & Theis do, then he also needs to perform as well or better than the other guys whose possessions he is taking from.  Or who's spot on the roster he is replacing (via trade).

And again, I think we kind of did. Not because our centers can't provide offense, they did  in this game. But because they dont stand a chance of even remotely slowing down Embiid. And thats the #1 reason this game was lost.

Also the TS% percentages you cite dont reflect the fact that our centers are low usage in general, its not their  efficiency thus game that was ab outlier its the efficiency with this games usage thats not going to sustain, if they went out next game against Embiid and went 6/10 for 14 points it wouldn't surprise me and would in fact be more in line with their general production.

Now to your point the other big reason they lost was the c's wing production, and that is likely to improve. It's entirely possible if you get enough from those guys you can overcome the disparity in the center position over a seven game series. I just want people to acknowledge that the center battle is one the c's are gonna lose in a series as things stand and that its possible its a fatal flaw. And you are probably right, there may not really be a way to fix that issue, buts thats not the same thing as it not being an issue.

And to be clear, again I'm not saying 100% this is gonna be the Celtics undoing. Maybe they get enough from their perimeter guys to overcome the center weakness. Maybe Embiid isnt actually good enough in a 7 game series to REALLY make you pay, or maybe they avoid Phili all together. But last night it was a problem, and it could be moving forward. I'm not really sure theres much the C's can do about it either way.

You keep swinging back and forth between what happened in THIS game (which is what my original assertion about) and then comments like, "the fact that our centers are low usage in general" and " ... the c's wing production, and that is likely to improve.".

In THIS game, our centers were both highly efficient (well over 70% TS) and of high enough USG (22%) to counter-balance a huge portion of Embiid's offensive production.   In THIS game, both Jaylen and Jayson were both  inefficient and un-productive.

So I will firmly stand on my contention that THIS game was NOT LOST DUE TO OUR CENTERS. 

Leaving that, I want to isolate on this statement:

But because they dont stand a chance of even remotely slowing down Embiid.

If you look at the actual match-up tracking data, you will find that, Theis, yes, did struggle to stop Embiid from scoring.   But Kanter actually has done very well against him both defensively and offensively.

In this game Embiid was only 4 of 11, scoring a total of just 12 points, when defended by Kanter. On the other end, Kanter shot 7 of 9, scoring 14 points, when defended by Embiid.

In the earlier match up, back on Oct 23, Embiid shot only 3 of 7, scoring just 8 points when defended by Kanter while Kanter shot 4 of 7, scoring 9 when defended by Embiid.

It absolutely was lost at least in part because we couldn't guard Joel Embiid one on one for most of the game. But since I dont think we're gonna agree on this I think we can move on.

[Birdman]

We need help on the bench as we all know..those rookies, Semi, Wannamaker are awful

[gpap]

We need help on the bench as we all know..those rookies, Semi, Wannamaker are awful

Wannamaker has kinda won me over.

He's prone to turnovers but he's become a steady contributor off the bench

[Jvalin]

Dear Danny, all I want for Christmas is Mo Bamba!