Author Topic: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East  (Read 6047 times)

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Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2019, 08:48:20 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2019, 09:00:02 PM »

Online gouki88

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.
I'm with you. 14/9/5/2/1 with a TS% of nearly 65% is awesome. He's also not even 23 until mid-July, and has a really good athletic profile - 6'9"/6'10", 255lbs, 7'3" wingspan and good athleticism. I think he's the real deal

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2019, 09:19:35 PM »

Offline Somebody

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How is Bam getting his assists? Is he throwing good interior hookups, or is he just racking up assists like a PG?

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2019, 09:33:10 PM »

Online gouki88

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How is Bam getting his assists? Is he throwing good interior hookups, or is he just racking up assists like a PG?
He gets quite a few of his assists (from what I've seen) through his passing from the post, and from dribble hand-off's where he'll typically screen the opposing defender. He brings the ball up a lot for the Heat though.



This gives a few good examples

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2019, 12:13:14 AM »

Offline Somebody

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How is Bam getting his assists? Is he throwing good interior hookups, or is he just racking up assists like a PG?
He gets quite a few of his assists (from what I've seen) through his passing from the post, and from dribble hand-off's where he'll typically screen the opposing defender. He brings the ball up a lot for the Heat though.



This gives a few good examples
I like the reads he made in the clip. His game seems to be KG like with the body of Howard lol. I probably won't trade Tatum or Brown for him (Tatum has perimeter engine potential while Jaylen can be a really valuable two way piece that can be used to wash out elite offensive players) but I really like his game. I think that he lacks the elite BBIQ and awareness that made KG transcendent, just a feeling from how he played in that clip (if you guys have any clips showing otherwise feel free to post it).

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2019, 01:56:15 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
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Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2019, 02:09:43 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
If Bam is really that good of a passer and shooter in the clip Gouki posted, I think the difference between him and a guy like Len is huge. Baynes is more of an exception, he's a borderline elite defensive centre with some newly developed offensive skills that makes him much better than what his current contract would suggest. I think he's worth 10 million or so in a vacuum, but his age and high energy playstyle that bangs him up sometimes will probably get his price down to 6-9 million. I think wings like Trevor Ariza would be an apt comparison for bigs like Baynes.

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2019, 05:14:09 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
Ah but the difference between Bam and Len and Baynes is also huge.  You can get perfectly serviceable wings for the same price you can get Baynes or Len.  That was the point I was making.  There are plenty of quality wings you can find cheaply.  Just like there are plenty of quality bigs you can find cheaply. 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2019, 05:40:10 AM »

Offline Androslav

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
Ah but the difference between Bam and Len and Baynes is also huge.  You can get perfectly serviceable wings for the same price you can get Baynes or Len.  That was the point I was making.  There are plenty of quality wings you can find cheaply.  Just like there are plenty of quality bigs you can find cheaply.
I disagree, there are no available cheap wings (rooks excluded).
It has been so for about 5-6 years.

The wing is a premium position in the NBA as it offers the most of both defensive and offensive versatility.
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Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2019, 09:38:00 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
Ah but the difference between Bam and Len and Baynes is also huge.  You can get perfectly serviceable wings for the same price you can get Baynes or Len.  That was the point I was making.  There are plenty of quality wings you can find cheaply.  Just like there are plenty of quality bigs you can find cheaply.
I disagree, there are no available cheap wings (rooks excluded).
It has been so for about 5-6 years.

The wing is a premium position in the NBA as it offers the most of both defensive and offensive versatility.
I listed 4 off the top of my head that were had for the mini-MLE or less. 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2019, 09:45:02 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2019, 12:33:11 PM »

Offline wiley

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
Ah but the difference between Bam and Len and Baynes is also huge.  You can get perfectly serviceable wings for the same price you can get Baynes or Len.  That was the point I was making.  There are plenty of quality wings you can find cheaply.  Just like there are plenty of quality bigs you can find cheaply.
I disagree, there are no available cheap wings (rooks excluded).
It has been so for about 5-6 years.

The wing is a premium position in the NBA as it offers the most of both defensive and offensive versatility.
I listed 4 off the top of my head that were had for the mini-MLE or less.

Yet the blog would drool to get Baynes back.  None of those wings are even saliva worthy! 

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2019, 12:52:25 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
Ah but the difference between Bam and Len and Baynes is also huge.  You can get perfectly serviceable wings for the same price you can get Baynes or Len.  That was the point I was making.  There are plenty of quality wings you can find cheaply.  Just like there are plenty of quality bigs you can find cheaply.
I disagree, there are no available cheap wings (rooks excluded).
It has been so for about 5-6 years.

The wing is a premium position in the NBA as it offers the most of both defensive and offensive versatility.
I listed 4 off the top of my head that were had for the mini-MLE or less.

Yet the blog would drool to get Baynes back.  None of those wings are even saliva worthy!
Feels like are comparing guys that are all over the map here. Bellinelli is horrible defensively and has a high of 7 points on the season. This is probably his last year in the league.


I admire Carter's longevity as much as anyone, but he is averaging 3 points a game and playing 13.5 minutes. He is a mentor, extra coach type for a young team, but very far from a difference maker on the floor. Temple is actually somewhat of a legit rotation player, but again he is only scoring 7 a game, coming off the bench and there is a reason he has played for 9 teams so far in ten seasons. I guess we could make the argument that maybe what Baynes doing is a complete fluke (specifically how much he has extended his range), but given we have seen lopez just do this at a similar age I think it is potentially legit.

Of the guys listed, I would say that Hood is actually in the same ballpark as Baynes as a player and is a very reasonable contributor that a lot of teams could use. I am not sure why he has bounced around the league so much or why he was available for so cheap, it seems like perhaps there have been some character concerns with him (the meltdown he had in the finals probably still follows him around). Are there any other guys that are more like Hood and less like Bellinelli and Carter that were signed as wings?

Interesting discussion. Would need to see a deeper comparison to really see which side is right.

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2019, 01:16:30 PM »

Offline wiley

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
Ah but the difference between Bam and Len and Baynes is also huge.  You can get perfectly serviceable wings for the same price you can get Baynes or Len.  That was the point I was making.  There are plenty of quality wings you can find cheaply.  Just like there are plenty of quality bigs you can find cheaply.
I disagree, there are no available cheap wings (rooks excluded).
It has been so for about 5-6 years.

The wing is a premium position in the NBA as it offers the most of both defensive and offensive versatility.
I listed 4 off the top of my head that were had for the mini-MLE or less.

Yet the blog would drool to get Baynes back.  None of those wings are even saliva worthy!
Feels like are comparing guys that are all over the map here. Bellinelli is horrible defensively and has a high of 7 points on the season. This is probably his last year in the league.


I admire Carter's longevity as much as anyone, but he is averaging 3 points a game and playing 13.5 minutes. He is a mentor, extra coach type for a young team, but very far from a difference maker on the floor. Temple is actually somewhat of a legit rotation player, but again he is only scoring 7 a game, coming off the bench and there is a reason he has played for 9 teams so far in ten seasons. I guess we could make the argument that maybe what Baynes doing is a complete fluke (specifically how much he has extended his range), but given we have seen lopez just do this at a similar age I think it is potentially legit.

Of the guys listed, I would say that Hood is actually in the same ballpark as Baynes as a player and is a very reasonable contributor that a lot of teams could use. I am not sure why he has bounced around the league so much or why he was available for so cheap, it seems like perhaps there have been some character concerns with him (the meltdown he had in the finals probably still follows him around). Are there any other guys that are more like Hood and less like Bellinelli and Carter that were signed as wings?

Interesting discussion. Would need to see a deeper comparison to really see which side is right.

Good post!  Agree Hood is good.

But I don't think there's a team in the league that would trade healthy Baynes for healthy Hood.

The reason:  While it's true that in today's NBA the center position is valued less, the centers who DO cut the mustard are extremely valuable, if not indispensable.  Baynes is one of those NBA centers who currently cuts the mustard and then some.  I would argue that Alex Len is not (willing to be wrong on that).

So today's centers are under a microscope...the non-mustard cutting centers might as well be dispensed with and replaced with guys like Grant Williams, Theis (PF), PJ Williams, Marvin Williams, etc....But the mustard cutters, including Baynes, are irreplaceable if a team wants to make it through the post season.

Brad Stevens and his swarm of non-mustard cutters are actually going to put this to the test better than any team in the league at the moment.  The C's are probably the best inadequate-center team in the league, and can scare teams like Philly, Utah, Denver and Lakers (AD counted as center), by virtue of great wings, depth and some bigs who in fact play Steven's system just as he wants.  Robert Williams advancement could launch the C's into mustard cutting big man territory...but until he does advance..the C's are experimenting with a wild west committee of bigs with Steven's managing the posse. 

(the Clippers, by the way, have a mustard cutter in Harrell). 

If Baynes could return (and be healthy) I would view the Celtics' as legit contenders.  Without him this year, I see them as hopfeful contenders.  Not because he's a star...he's not.  But because a contender needs a mustard cutting center unless they have Lebron James or Giannis or Leonard...and even guys like that often need one.  Here's hoping Steven's can prove me wrong (or Robert Williams surprised us all this year). 

Re: The Heat are as good as anyone in the East
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2019, 03:17:10 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I guess I am on an island in seeing a player like Bam - who can impact the game in so many different ways - as somebody who is as valuable as many of the top young wings across the league. Since we have a surplus of wings, I wouldn't be too disappointed if one of them turned into Bam.



The thing is the difference between a guy like Bam and the caliber of center you can find in the 15-30 range of the draft, or the kind of guy you can get for $5-8 million per year in free agency, is not that huge.

Meanwhile the difference between Jaylen Brown and the type of wing you can get later in the draft, or for a discount price in free agency, is pretty huge.


You've got centers like Aron Baynes and Alex Len making $5 million a year or less.


For that kind of price you get a wing like Reggie Bullock, who currently can't break the rotation for the Knicks.
Or Garrett Temple.  Or Rodney Hood.  Or Marco Belinelli.  Or Vince Carter at the minimum.  Or countless other vet guards that are similar talents to Baynes and Len.

I guess if we're comparing Bam to Baynes and Len then the conversation can't go much further. I don't know where Jaylen or Bam will go in their respective careers, but we shouldn't assume Jaylen is automatically a cut above Bam. I mean, Bam is even younger than Jaylen and has one less year of NBA experience.


I think you deliberately misunderstood my point.

The idea isn't that Baynes or Len is the same caliber as Bam.

It's that you can pay very little in money or assets and end up with a perfectly serviceable starting center.  Bam is better than a serviceable starting center, but he isn't so much better that it would really change the fortunes of your team to swap one for the other.


Whereas the difference between having Garrett Temple or Marco Belinelli versus Jaylen Brown is huge.
Ah but the difference between Bam and Len and Baynes is also huge.  You can get perfectly serviceable wings for the same price you can get Baynes or Len.  That was the point I was making.  There are plenty of quality wings you can find cheaply.  Just like there are plenty of quality bigs you can find cheaply.
I disagree, there are no available cheap wings (rooks excluded).
It has been so for about 5-6 years.

The wing is a premium position in the NBA as it offers the most of both defensive and offensive versatility.
I listed 4 off the top of my head that were had for the mini-MLE or less.

Yet the blog would drool to get Baynes back.  None of those wings are even saliva worthy!
Feels like are comparing guys that are all over the map here. Bellinelli is horrible defensively and has a high of 7 points on the season. This is probably his last year in the league.


I admire Carter's longevity as much as anyone, but he is averaging 3 points a game and playing 13.5 minutes. He is a mentor, extra coach type for a young team, but very far from a difference maker on the floor. Temple is actually somewhat of a legit rotation player, but again he is only scoring 7 a game, coming off the bench and there is a reason he has played for 9 teams so far in ten seasons. I guess we could make the argument that maybe what Baynes doing is a complete fluke (specifically how much he has extended his range), but given we have seen lopez just do this at a similar age I think it is potentially legit.

Of the guys listed, I would say that Hood is actually in the same ballpark as Baynes as a player and is a very reasonable contributor that a lot of teams could use. I am not sure why he has bounced around the league so much or why he was available for so cheap, it seems like perhaps there have been some character concerns with him (the meltdown he had in the finals probably still follows him around). Are there any other guys that are more like Hood and less like Bellinelli and Carter that were signed as wings?

Interesting discussion. Would need to see a deeper comparison to really see which side is right.
I just went off the top of my head.  Denver signed Torrey Craig for 2 million dollars.  He isn't much of a scorer, but does everything else well and has started 2 of their games.  Danuel House who has started basically every game for Houston signed for the mini-MLE of 3.5 million.  They also signed Austin Rivers, Gerald Green, Thabos Sefolosha, and Ben McLemore for the minimum (in addition to PJ Tucker for the MLE).  So Houston managed to find 2 starters and every single rotation small/wing on their bench (aside from Gordon) for those type of prices.

The Lakers signed Bradley for the room exception of 4.76 million, Cook for 3 million, Caruso for the room exception of 2.75 million, and Rondo, Dudley, and Daniels at the minimum.  So 1 starter and a good portion of their bench rotation from the small/wing position.  They also signed 3 big men cheaply as well in McGee, Cousins, and Howard (obviously Cousins is out again). 

This idea that only big men can be found at useful cheap prices is just strange to me.   
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty