Kawhi vs Giannis

[Sophomore]

If my goal is to win a title this year and I already have a solid playoff caliber team with no obvious weaknesses apart from a lack of crunch time scoring, give me Kawhi all day.

If I'm starting a team from scratch and I want to be in contention for the foreseeable future, my answer is Giannis without question.

This is a good take.

[Somebody]

Giannis is the best player in the world.  It isn't even all that close.

I'm honestly surprised that you picked Giannis, I always thought you were more partial to narratives in sports lol.

I've been saying since before last year even started that Giannis was the best player in the world.  I had him 4th the summer before that (behind LBJ, Durant, and Curry) and took immense heat for it (though it pretty much bore out that way).  Giannis is a monster.  The most unique player I've ever seen.  With Durant getting injured, I legitimately don't think it is even close.  Giannis is the best player in the world.  He is young, he is healthy.  I pick him 100 times out of 100 and don't give it a second thought.

Yeah I was a bit slow regarding Giannis, but I definitely credit him as a top 5 player 2 seasons ago, a top 2 player last season and likely the best player in the league this season barring another Curry explosion after taking a step back and evaluating his body of work. I agree with your point regarding his skillset, his combination of rebounding, defense, finishing, ballhandling and passing as a 7 footer is something we've never seen before. I think I'd rank his season last year just below the peaks of the greatest PFs in KG and Duncan, he was that incredible.

[BringToughnessBack]

Reminds me right now of comparing Russell and Wilt. Right now, I always choose the one who can win the big games. Giannis will most likely get there but as of now, I would take Kawhi but if I were to look in a crystal ball in 3 years time, it would most likely shift but I need to see great one's rise up and win it all on the big stage.

Russell or Wilt?

[Somebody]

Reminds me right now of comparing Russell and Wilt. Right now, I always choose the one who can win the big games. Giannis will most likely get there but as of now, I would take Kawhi but if I were to look in a crystal ball in 3 years time, it would most likely shift but I need to see great one's rise up and win it all on the big stage.

Russell or Wilt?

If we're talking about peaks I'd take 67 Wilt. But Russell's career was an onslaught of MVP calibre seasons, he was an MVP level player from day 1 to his retirement (with an All-Time peak), possessing a type of consistency that Wilt never had (I'd take Russell if I had to start a franchise with him or Wilt). I do think that this is a poor comparison though, Kawhi never had an All-Time great season like Wilt, Russell and Giannis did, although he does fare better in terms of scoring in crunch time than Giannis due to their different skillsets.

[bdm860]

Whether it's right now or long term, Giannis should be the pick. The narrative of winning in sports is truly something amazing-it lead the public to view a player who posted a solid MVP caliber season in a better light than a player who posted an All-Time season by any standard except for winning a title, something that's influenced by a ton of variables out of a player's control no matter how good he is.

I don't think that's what's going on.  We saw them go head to head.  For 6 Games.  Kawhi was better (and supposedly injured).  It wasn't like the Warriors beating LeBron.  Giannis was contained when it mattered.  Kawhi was not.

You give me 2 identical teams.  Put Giannis on one, Kawhi on the other, and have them face off in a playoff series.  My money, this year, is on Kawhi's team.

The narrative that Kawhi was so much better than Giannis in that series just isn't borne out in reality.  Giannis was awful scoring the ball in game 3 (though he did have 23 rebounds and 7 assists), but other than that Giannis scored at least 21 points in the other 5 games in the series.  He had at least 4 assists in every game, blocked multiple shots in all but game 5 which was also the only game he didn't have at least 10 rebounds.  Giannis out-rebounded, out-assisted, and out-blocked Leonard, while Leonard scored more and was the better steal generator.  And let's be clear, Leonard scored more pretty much exclusively because he is a better foul shooter and was a significantly better foul shooter in that series.  They shot almost identically from the field, but Leonard was 54-61 from the line while Giannis was an awful 35-60 (which was a good deal worse than the regular season). 

Even on the court on the scoreboard they were nearly identical as Giannis was a + overall in the series (+10) and only had 2 - games in the series (-19 in game 4 and -2 in game 5).  Leonard was only +13 in the series and like Giannis has 2 - games (the 2 losses at -4 and -19).

I think there are real arguments that Giannis was better than Leonard in the series.  The Bucks were not better than the Raptors though, and that is really all that matters.  The reason the Bucks lost was not Giannis it was Middleton, Brogdon, Bledsoe, Mirotic, and Ilyasova forgetting how to shoot the ball in games 3-6 of that series.  If even just a couple of those players hit their normal percentages, the Bucks win that series and no one is having this discussion at all, because Giannis is just flat out better than Leonard.  And I legitimately don't think it is all that close.

.518 TS % is well below league average so is .481 eFG%.  And also well below Giannis season averages of .644 TS% and .599% eFG% (both incredible).

Scoring 21+ isn't impressive when you're averaging 28ppg for the season.  5 of 6 games he was below his season average. (The game is more than scoring, but they need him to score to win).

Kawhi on the other hand scored, rebounded, passed better than his season averages.  While his TS% dipped a little, it was still above average.  Giannis dropped on everything but rebounds.  And Kawhi did this against PHI and GS too, it wasn't one just good series/matchup for him.  He has consistently showed it (and for that one game against GS in '17 too, actually has Kawhi ever had a bad series or been contained since he's "arrived" as a star? ).

I'm not saying this as some slight to Giannis.  Giannis is an incredible talent.  It's not an insult to say somebody is better, or he's only 1b instead of 1a.  Will probably go down as one of the best all time.  But he did not step up in the playoffs like his team needed him too, where top end talent matters most.  You can lose to a better team and be the best player (like LeBron in '15).  That's not what happened here with Giannis.

[Big333223]

If it's for one season right now, it's Kawhi.

If I'm building a franchise for the the long term, I'd select Giannis.

I think this is where I'm at. Kawhi leading the Raptors to a title, hitting clutch shots, muscling through injuries... Was really something.

But Giannis is bigger, more versatile, and a little younger. If he had been as lucky as Kawhi in being drafted (or traded for, even) he could easily have a Finals MVP, too.

[Moranis]

Whether it's right now or long term, Giannis should be the pick. The narrative of winning in sports is truly something amazing-it lead the public to view a player who posted a solid MVP caliber season in a better light than a player who posted an All-Time season by any standard except for winning a title, something that's influenced by a ton of variables out of a player's control no matter how good he is.

I don't think that's what's going on.  We saw them go head to head.  For 6 Games.  Kawhi was better (and supposedly injured).  It wasn't like the Warriors beating LeBron.  Giannis was contained when it mattered.  Kawhi was not.

You give me 2 identical teams.  Put Giannis on one, Kawhi on the other, and have them face off in a playoff series.  My money, this year, is on Kawhi's team.

The narrative that Kawhi was so much better than Giannis in that series just isn't borne out in reality.  Giannis was awful scoring the ball in game 3 (though he did have 23 rebounds and 7 assists), but other than that Giannis scored at least 21 points in the other 5 games in the series.  He had at least 4 assists in every game, blocked multiple shots in all but game 5 which was also the only game he didn't have at least 10 rebounds.  Giannis out-rebounded, out-assisted, and out-blocked Leonard, while Leonard scored more and was the better steal generator.  And let's be clear, Leonard scored more pretty much exclusively because he is a better foul shooter and was a significantly better foul shooter in that series.  They shot almost identically from the field, but Leonard was 54-61 from the line while Giannis was an awful 35-60 (which was a good deal worse than the regular season). 

Even on the court on the scoreboard they were nearly identical as Giannis was a + overall in the series (+10) and only had 2 - games in the series (-19 in game 4 and -2 in game 5).  Leonard was only +13 in the series and like Giannis has 2 - games (the 2 losses at -4 and -19).

I think there are real arguments that Giannis was better than Leonard in the series.  The Bucks were not better than the Raptors though, and that is really all that matters.  The reason the Bucks lost was not Giannis it was Middleton, Brogdon, Bledsoe, Mirotic, and Ilyasova forgetting how to shoot the ball in games 3-6 of that series.  If even just a couple of those players hit their normal percentages, the Bucks win that series and no one is having this discussion at all, because Giannis is just flat out better than Leonard.  And I legitimately don't think it is all that close.

.518 TS % is well below league average so is .481 eFG%.  And also well below Giannis season averages of .644 TS% and .599% eFG% (both incredible).

Scoring 21+ isn't impressive when you're averaging 28ppg for the season.  5 of 6 games he was below his season average. (The game is more than scoring, but they need him to score to win).

Kawhi on the other hand scored, rebounded, passed better than his season averages.  While his TS% dipped a little, it was still above average.  Giannis dropped on everything but rebounds.  And Kawhi did this against PHI and GS too, it wasn't one just good series/matchup for him.  He has consistently showed it (and for that one game against GS in '17 too, has Kawhi ever had a bad series or been contained since he's "arrived" as a star? ).

I'm not saying this as some slight to Giannis.  Giannis is an incredible talent.  It's not an insult to say somebody is better, or he's only 1b instead of 1a.  Will probably go down as one of the best all time.  But he did not step up in the playoffs like his team needed him too, where top end talent matters most.  You can lose to a better team and be the best player (like LeBron in '15).  That's not what happened here with Giannis.

Kawhi's eFG% was 48.4% in the series.  Basically the same as Giannis.  The entire difference in the TS% was at the foul line.  Which is what I said.  If Giannis was at his regular season average he would have scored just under 9 more points in the series, raising his ppg up nearly 2 ppg (still below his season average, but also not that far off especially with the game 3 outlier considered).  That also would have bumped his TS% to over 55% (still not season average, but again closing the gap a great deal to Kawhi).  Obviously, Giannis didn't shoot his regular season average from the line, but that seems to be something that doesn't have much to do with on court performance other than he might have just been more tired.  Also, Giannis was a more prolific shot blocker than the regular season and his assists weren't much different and those are tied entirely to his teammates ability to hit shots, which they just didn't do in games 3-6. 

[SHAQATTACK]

Take either over Lebron

Kawhi is the anti kryptonite for LeBron ,  he can do everything Bron can do, more now , guard Lebron and is a TRUE team player all day and a nice dude.   

Got to mention shout to Lakers and their fans ...".screw you !"

[bdm860]

Whether it's right now or long term, Giannis should be the pick. The narrative of winning in sports is truly something amazing-it lead the public to view a player who posted a solid MVP caliber season in a better light than a player who posted an All-Time season by any standard except for winning a title, something that's influenced by a ton of variables out of a player's control no matter how good he is.

I don't think that's what's going on.  We saw them go head to head.  For 6 Games.  Kawhi was better (and supposedly injured).  It wasn't like the Warriors beating LeBron.  Giannis was contained when it mattered.  Kawhi was not.

You give me 2 identical teams.  Put Giannis on one, Kawhi on the other, and have them face off in a playoff series.  My money, this year, is on Kawhi's team.

The narrative that Kawhi was so much better than Giannis in that series just isn't borne out in reality.  Giannis was awful scoring the ball in game 3 (though he did have 23 rebounds and 7 assists), but other than that Giannis scored at least 21 points in the other 5 games in the series.  He had at least 4 assists in every game, blocked multiple shots in all but game 5 which was also the only game he didn't have at least 10 rebounds.  Giannis out-rebounded, out-assisted, and out-blocked Leonard, while Leonard scored more and was the better steal generator.  And let's be clear, Leonard scored more pretty much exclusively because he is a better foul shooter and was a significantly better foul shooter in that series.  They shot almost identically from the field, but Leonard was 54-61 from the line while Giannis was an awful 35-60 (which was a good deal worse than the regular season). 

Even on the court on the scoreboard they were nearly identical as Giannis was a + overall in the series (+10) and only had 2 - games in the series (-19 in game 4 and -2 in game 5).  Leonard was only +13 in the series and like Giannis has 2 - games (the 2 losses at -4 and -19).

I think there are real arguments that Giannis was better than Leonard in the series.  The Bucks were not better than the Raptors though, and that is really all that matters.  The reason the Bucks lost was not Giannis it was Middleton, Brogdon, Bledsoe, Mirotic, and Ilyasova forgetting how to shoot the ball in games 3-6 of that series.  If even just a couple of those players hit their normal percentages, the Bucks win that series and no one is having this discussion at all, because Giannis is just flat out better than Leonard.  And I legitimately don't think it is all that close.

.518 TS % is well below league average so is .481 eFG%.  And also well below Giannis season averages of .644 TS% and .599% eFG% (both incredible).

Scoring 21+ isn't impressive when you're averaging 28ppg for the season.  5 of 6 games he was below his season average. (The game is more than scoring, but they need him to score to win).

Kawhi on the other hand scored, rebounded, passed better than his season averages.  While his TS% dipped a little, it was still above average.  Giannis dropped on everything but rebounds.  And Kawhi did this against PHI and GS too, it wasn't one just good series/matchup for him.  He has consistently showed it (and for that one game against GS in '17 too, has Kawhi ever had a bad series or been contained since he's "arrived" as a star? ).

I'm not saying this as some slight to Giannis.  Giannis is an incredible talent.  It's not an insult to say somebody is better, or he's only 1b instead of 1a.  Will probably go down as one of the best all time.  But he did not step up in the playoffs like his team needed him too, where top end talent matters most.  You can lose to a better team and be the best player (like LeBron in '15).  That's not what happened here with Giannis.

Kawhi's eFG% was 48.4% in the series.  Basically the same as Giannis.  The entire difference in the TS% was at the foul line.  Which is what I said.  If Giannis was at his regular season average he would have scored just under 9 more points in the series, raising his ppg up nearly 2 ppg (still below his season average, but also not that far off especially with the game 3 outlier considered).  That also would have bumped his TS% to over 55% (still not season average, but again closing the gap a great deal to Kawhi).  Obviously, Giannis didn't shoot his regular season average from the line, but that seems to be something that doesn't have much to do with on court performance other than he might have just been more tired.  Also, Giannis was a more prolific shot blocker than the regular season and his assists weren't much different and those are tied entirely to his teammates ability to hit shots, which they just didn't do in games 3-6.

Giannis is a great player, I'm not saying he's not.  But he was contained (for which apparently Kawhi is getting little credit, though it was definitely a team effort).  That wasn't a great playoff series for Giannis (doesn't mean it was a bad series for him, but he could have played better).

If he did a LeBron stat line, and was averaging 30-35ppg, but his team lost, I'd be more inclined to give him the nod.

But all the praise for Giannis, who I already know is great, you're not saying anything that he shows why he's better than Kawhi or why Kawhi isn't that great.  When has Kawhi not delivered in the playoffs?  Is there anybody he can't guard?  Is there any team that can stop him from scoring?  What team has stopped him or limited him in some way when it matters?  This is why Kawhi has the edge over Giannis in my book.

[18isGREATERthan72]

Giannis is an absolute beast.  A monster of a physical specimen; but currently he doesn't have the skill set yet to counter everything thrown at him.  You CAN game plan for Giannis and take him out of his element.

You can NOT game plan against Kawhi.  He does EVERYTHING at an above average level, and he is elite in many facets of the game.  This is the difference between the two.

[johnnygreen]

Giannis is an absolute beast.  A monster of a physical specimen; but currently he doesn't have the skill set yet to counter everything thrown at him.  You CAN game plan for Giannis and take him out of his element.

You can NOT game plan against Kawhi.  He does EVERYTHING at an above average level, and he is elite in many facets of the game.  This is the difference between the two.

Great post.

Giannis is no doubt a great player. However, he can’t shoot from the outside and he has some dog in him.

Kawhi imposes his will on the game and does not let up come playoff time. He is basically a 6’7” version of Marcus Smart that can shoot and is a number 1 scoring option.

As a Celtics fan, I would take Kawhi because I believe he provides the better chance to win titles. If I want to rack up regular season wins, was interested in highlights, and didn’t care about titles, then I take Giannis.

[footey]

Whether it's right now or long term, Giannis should be the pick. The narrative of winning in sports is truly something amazing-it lead the public to view a player who posted a solid MVP caliber season in a better light than a player who posted an All-Time season by any standard except for winning a title, something that's influenced by a ton of variables out of a player's control no matter how good he is.

I don't think that's what's going on.  We saw them go head to head.  For 6 Games.  Kawhi was better (and supposedly injured).  It wasn't like the Warriors beating LeBron.  Giannis was contained when it mattered.  Kawhi was not.

You give me 2 identical teams.  Put Giannis on one, Kawhi on the other, and have them face off in a playoff series.  My money, this year, is on Kawhi's team.

The narrative that Kawhi was so much better than Giannis in that series just isn't borne out in reality.  Giannis was awful scoring the ball in game 3 (though he did have 23 rebounds and 7 assists), but other than that Giannis scored at least 21 points in the other 5 games in the series.  He had at least 4 assists in every game, blocked multiple shots in all but game 5 which was also the only game he didn't have at least 10 rebounds.  Giannis out-rebounded, out-assisted, and out-blocked Leonard, while Leonard scored more and was the better steal generator.  And let's be clear, Leonard scored more pretty much exclusively because he is a better foul shooter and was a significantly better foul shooter in that series.  They shot almost identically from the field, but Leonard was 54-61 from the line while Giannis was an awful 35-60 (which was a good deal worse than the regular season). 

Even on the court on the scoreboard they were nearly identical as Giannis was a + overall in the series (+10) and only had 2 - games in the series (-19 in game 4 and -2 in game 5).  Leonard was only +13 in the series and like Giannis has 2 - games (the 2 losses at -4 and -19).

I think there are real arguments that Giannis was better than Leonard in the series.  The Bucks were not better than the Raptors though, and that is really all that matters.  The reason the Bucks lost was not Giannis it was Middleton, Brogdon, Bledsoe, Mirotic, and Ilyasova forgetting how to shoot the ball in games 3-6 of that series.  If even just a couple of those players hit their normal percentages, the Bucks win that series and no one is having this discussion at all, because Giannis is just flat out better than Leonard.  And I legitimately don't think it is all that close.

.518 TS % is well below league average so is .481 eFG%.  And also well below Giannis season averages of .644 TS% and .599% eFG% (both incredible).

Scoring 21+ isn't impressive when you're averaging 28ppg for the season.  5 of 6 games he was below his season average. (The game is more than scoring, but they need him to score to win).

Kawhi on the other hand scored, rebounded, passed better than his season averages.  While his TS% dipped a little, it was still above average.  Giannis dropped on everything but rebounds.  And Kawhi did this against PHI and GS too, it wasn't one just good series/matchup for him.  He has consistently showed it (and for that one game against GS in '17 too, has Kawhi ever had a bad series or been contained since he's "arrived" as a star? ).

I'm not saying this as some slight to Giannis.  Giannis is an incredible talent.  It's not an insult to say somebody is better, or he's only 1b instead of 1a.  Will probably go down as one of the best all time.  But he did not step up in the playoffs like his team needed him too, where top end talent matters most.  You can lose to a better team and be the best player (like LeBron in '15).  That's not what happened here with Giannis.

Kawhi's eFG% was 48.4% in the series.  Basically the same as Giannis.  The entire difference in the TS% was at the foul line.  Which is what I said.  If Giannis was at his regular season average he would have scored just under 9 more points in the series, raising his ppg up nearly 2 ppg (still below his season average, but also not that far off especially with the game 3 outlier considered).  That also would have bumped his TS% to over 55% (still not season average, but again closing the gap a great deal to Kawhi).  Obviously, Giannis didn't shoot his regular season average from the line, but that seems to be something that doesn't have much to do with on court performance other than he might have just been more tired.  Also, Giannis was a more prolific shot blocker than the regular season and his assists weren't much different and those are tied entirely to his teammates ability to hit shots, which they just didn't do in games 3-6.

Kawhi played hurt throughout the entire Bucks series.  Should factor that in as well.  Healthy, the differences would have been much greater.

[dannyboy35]

   Leonard every day for me. I love how good he is but his demeanor gives me my man crush. Even when Pop sent out his two stooges to trash Leonard in the press he never said a word. But he made them pay. I love this guy. No showboating, no talk. No taking anything for granted. Love him.

[Briantir]

I think we all should acknowledge Kawhi is simply the best all around ball player and is Michael Jordan reborn....

He's won a title coast to coast finals MVP and last years playoff run with Toronto was legendary 31 ppg on 50+% shooting... Coupled with the shot... Elite defense board man got paid.

Kawhi can shoot over anyone from anywhere on the floor he's the complete package he's the best.

[CelticSooner]

Before the playoffs started last season I thought Giannis was the best player but during the playoffs Kawhi asserted his dominance to show who currently holds the throne. I think Kawhi has just a little bit something more behind the ears that Giannis currently lacks. I don't think the gap is huge but I'd feel much safer late in the game with Kawhi on my team than Giannis.