Author Topic: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria  (Read 11579 times)

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Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #240 on: October 18, 2019, 01:25:02 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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So much for the cease fire:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/world/middleeast/syria-ceasefire-kurds-turkey.html
well that's to be expected.  Pence isn't nearly the deal maker that Trump is ;)


"Don't be a tough guy!" seems like a thing you would say to someone to make them punch you in the face.
gives me a great idea --> have Erdogan punch Trump in the face and charge everyone who'd want to see that.  would undoubtedly put a huge dent in the deficit   ;D

Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #241 on: October 18, 2019, 02:02:59 PM »

Offline liam

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Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #242 on: October 18, 2019, 02:10:24 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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https://twitter.com/NamikTan/status/1185060253458714625

That's the former Turkish ambassador to the US making fun of Donald Trump on twitter.

That's where we are. Turkish troops are slaughtering our allies and our duly elected president is getting owned on twitter.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #243 on: October 18, 2019, 03:53:47 PM »

Online ozgod

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Gouki, I didn't mean to be disrespectful toward anyone, you and your grandfather's life-threatening experiences, I hope you understand that.
My motivation is purely to encourage respect toward such things, criticizing the theatre term use as disrespectful one toward the victims.
RPGenerate, I wanted to engage the discussion, I think it has value.
We can agree to disagree. I will still refrain from using that term.

Androslav, i think you're misunderstanding things here. The word theater (or theatre) in this context is not implying that the war is trivial or "like a play". It's not intended to be a synonym for cinema or movie theater. It's not meant to have that meaning at all, nor is it meant to disrespect anyone. It's a military term (the full phrase is "theater of operations").

Quote
In warfare, a theater or theatre (see spelling differences) is an area in which important military events occur or are progressing.[1][2] A theater can include the entirety of the airspace, land and sea area that is or that may potentially become involved in war operations.[3]

Theater of operations (TO) is a sub-area within a theater of war. The boundary of a TO is defined by the commander who is orchestrating or providing support for specific combat operations within the TO.

Theater of operations is divided into strategic directions or military regions depending on whether it's a war or peacetime. The United States Armed Forces split into Unified Combatant Commands (regions) that are assigned to a particular theater of military operations. A strategic direction is a group of armies also known as a task (field) forces or battlegroups.

A strategic command or direction in general essence would combine a number of tactical military formations or operational command. In the modern military, a strategic command is better known as a combat command that may be a combination of groups.

The Soviet and Russian Armed Forces classify a large geographic subdivision – such as continental geographic territories with their bordering maritime areas, islands, adjacent coasts[5] and airspace – as a theater. The Russian-language term for a military "theater" is театр военных действий, teatr voennykh deistvii (literally: "theater of military operations"), abbreviated ТВД, TVD.

The term "theater of operations" was defined in the [American] field manuals as the land and sea areas to be invaded or defended, including areas necessary for administrative activities incident to the military operations (chart 12). In accordance with the experience of World War I, it was usually conceived of as a large land mass over which continuous operations would take place and was divided into two chief areas–the combat zone, or the area of active fighting, and the communications zone, or area required for administration of the theater. As the armies advanced, both these zones and the areas into which they were divided would shift forward to new geographic areas of control.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theater_(warfare)


The reason that American media have not used "American theater of war" for 9/11 is because there was never a military conflict there. However the phrase "Western theater of the American Civil War" refers to military operations during the Civil War in the states of Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Mississippi, North Carolina, Kentucky, South Carolina and Tennessee, as well as Louisiana east of the Mississippi River. Operations on the coasts of these states, except for Mobile Bay, are considered part of the Lower Seaboard Theater. Most other operations east of the Mississippi are part of the Eastern Theater. Operations west of the Mississippi River took place in the Trans-Mississippi Theater.

For more you can read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Theater_of_the_American_Civil_War

If you look back you will find theaters of operation for the American War of Independence as well as the Vietnam War, where we were definitely not the victors.

It's just a way to define locations where organized warfare is taking place, in a military context.

That said if you do find it offensive I hope you realize it's not intended as such. It's just military terminology. I couldn't imagine anyone trivializing war. Except maybe our President.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 04:47:12 PM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #244 on: October 21, 2019, 03:28:48 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Some former US soldiers give their thoughts on the withdrawal:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-soldiers-fought-alongside-kurds-100541457.html

Some current US soldiers get pelted by vegetables during withdrawal:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-50124309/syria-civilians-pelt-us-army-vehicles-with-potatoes-in-qamishli
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Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #245 on: October 22, 2019, 05:16:41 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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McConnell introduces resolution in opposition to the President's withdrawal from Syria:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/22/politics/mitch-mcconnell-resolution-syria-troops/index.html

Quote
"If not arrested, withdrawing from Syria will invite more of the chaos that breeds terrorism and creates a vacuum our adversaries will certainly fill," McConnell said on the Senate floor.
McConnell said if the President doesn't halt the withdrawal, Russia "will gain more leverage" in the Middle East, Iran-backed forces could gain greater access to a "strategic corridor that runs all the way from Tehran to the very doorstep of Israel" and the Assad regime will be invited to "reassert its oppressive control" over northeastern Syria.

This is one of the rare moments when I find myself in agreement with Mitch.

However, I fear that this is far too late to undo the damage.
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Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #246 on: October 22, 2019, 06:45:39 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Since its foundation, the PKK has recruited new fighters mainly from Turkey, but also from Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Western countries using various recruitment methods, such as using nationalist propaganda and its gender equality ideology. At its establishment, it included a small number of female fighters but over time, however, the number increased significantly and by the early 1990s, 30 percent of its 17,000 armed fighting forces were women.[155] In much of rural Turkey, where male-dominated tribal structures, and conservative Muslim norms were commonplace, the organization increased its number of members through the recruitment of women from different social structures and environments, also from families that migrated to several European countries after 1960 as guest workers.[155] It was reported by a Turkish university that 88% of the subjects initially believed that equality was a key objective, and that they joined the organization based on this claim.[156] In 2007, approximately 1,100 of 4,500–5,000 total members were women.[155]

Quote
That's where we are. Turkish troops are slaughtering our allies and our duly elected president is getting owned on twitter.

Our allies, the PPK has a bunch of stuff that would never make them an ally, we used them and paid them to fight other enemies but ally?

Quote
In its early stages, the PKK recruited young women by kidnapping them. This forced families whose children were already a member of the organization to cooperate and thus turning them into accomplices, which increased the number of women joining the group, according to the publication, published by the Jamestown Foundation.

The organization is also actively recruiting child soldiers and it has been accused of abducting more than 2,000 children by Turkish Security Forces. The independent reports by the Human Rights Watch (HRW), the United Nations(UN) and the Amnesty International have confirmed the recruitment and use of child soldiers by the organization and its armed wings since the 90's.

According to the TEPAV think-tank which did research on the identities of 1,362 PKK fighters who lost their lives between 2001 and 2011, 42% of the recruits were under 18, with over a quarter of these being under 15 years of age at the time of recruiting. The organization is also believed to have used the children in the drug trade.

And big time drug traffickers

Quote
On 14 October 2009, the U.S. Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) targeted the senior leadership of the PKK, designating Murat Karayılan, the head of the PKK, and high-ranking members Ali Riza Altun and Zübeyir Aydar as foreign narcotics traffickers at the request of Turkey.[173] On 20 April 2011, the U.S. Department of the Treasury announced the designation of PKK founders Cemîl Bayik and Duran Kalkan and other high-ranking members as Specially Designated Narcotics Traffickers (SDNT) pursuant to the Foreign Narcotics Kingpin Designation Act (Kingpin Act). Pursuant to the Kingpin Act, the designation freezes any assets the designees may have under U.S. jurisdiction and prohibits U.S. persons from conducting financial or commercial transactions with these individuals.

According to research conducted by journalist Aliza Marcus, the PKK accepted the support of smugglers in the region. Aliza Marcus claimed that some of those Kurdish smuggler who involved in the drugs trade, either because they truly believed in the PKK—or because they thought it a good business practice(avoid conflicts)—frequently donated money to the PKK rebels. She also claimed that there were reports of PKK supporters in Europe who used their positions and contacts to trade in drugs—and then handed some of the profits to the PKK. And when PKK activists needed more money, they had no qualms about approaching Kurds who trafficked in narcotics. However, according to Aliza Marcus, it does not seem that the PKK, as an organization, directly produced or traded in narcotics.[176]
Following the SDF capture of Raqqa, YPJ and YPG troops raised a large banner of Abdullah Öcalan in the city centre.

In 2018, the state-run new agency AA claimed that the PKK has successfully kept its drug production and trafficking activities underground, both across the globe and within Turkey, and that the security forces had carried out more than 414 drug trafficking operations against the organization since the 1980. The Turkish authorities have also claimed that the organization gains 1,5 billion USD yearly from drug trafficking

and then you have YPG faction

Quote
n June 2014, Human Rights Watch criticized the YPG for accepting minors into their ranks,[135] picking up on multiple earlier reports of teenage fighters serving in the YPG, with a report by the United Nations Secretary General stating that 24 minors under age of 18 had been recruited by YPG, with 124 having been recruited by the Free Syrian Army and 5 by the Syrian Arab Army.[136] In response, the YPG and YPJ signed the Geneva Call Deed of Commitment protecting children in armed conflict, prohibiting sexual violence and against gender discrimination in July 2014,[137] and Kurdish security forces (YPG and Asayish) began receiving human rights training from Geneva Call and other international organisations with the YPG pledging publicly to demobilize all fighters under 18 within a month and began to enact disciplinary measures against commanders of the units that had involved in corruption and accepting recruit under age of 18 to their ranks.[138][139] In October 2015 the YPG demobilized 21 minors from the military service in its ranks.

In response to reports issued by international organisations such as Human Rights Watch,[141] the general command of the SDF issued a military order prohibiting the recruitment of children.
According to the annual UN report of 2018, there were 224 cases of child recruitment by the YPG and its women’s unit, the YPJ, in 2017, an almost fivefold increase from the previous year

They have been accused of creating displacement of families and ethnic cleansing.   Nice guys, eh?

So I think it is more a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend and not an ally.   But still wrong to abandon them after using them on many levels but that has been US policy for decades.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 06:54:14 PM by Celtics4ever »

Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #247 on: October 22, 2019, 09:50:08 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Since its foundation, the PKK has recruited new fighters mainly from Turkey, but also from Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Western countries using various recruitment methods, such as using nationalist propaganda and its gender equality ideology. At its establishment, it included a small number of female fighters but over time, however, the number increased significantly and by the early 1990s, 30 percent of its 17,000 armed fighting forces were women.[155] In much of rural Turkey, where male-dominated tribal structures, and conservative Muslim norms were commonplace, the organization increased its number of members through the recruitment of women from different social structures and environments, also from families that migrated to several European countries after 1960 as guest workers.[155] It was reported by a Turkish university that 88% of the subjects initially believed that equality was a key objective, and that they joined the organization based on this claim.[156] In 2007, approximately 1,100 of 4,500–5,000 total members were women.[155]

Quote
That's where we are. Turkish troops are slaughtering our allies and our duly elected president is getting owned on twitter.

Our allies, the PPK has a bunch of stuff that would never make them an ally, we used them and paid them to fight other enemies but ally?

Quote
In its early stages, the PKK recruited young women by kidnapping them. This forced families whose children were already a member of the organization to cooperate and thus turning them into accomplices, which increased the number of women joining the group, according to the publication, published by the Jamestown Foundation.

The organization is also actively recruiting child soldiers and it has been accused of abducting more than 2,000 children by Turkish Security Forces. The independent reports by the Human Rights Watch (HRW), the United Nations(UN) and the Amnesty International have confirmed the recruitment and use of child soldiers by the organization and its armed wings since the 90's.

According to the TEPAV think-tank which did research on the identities of 1,362 PKK fighters who lost their lives between 2001 and 2011, 42% of the recruits were under 18, with over a quarter of these being under 15 years of age at the time of recruiting. The organization is also believed to have used the children in the drug trade.

And big time drug traffickers

Quote
On 14 October 2009, the U.S. Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) targeted the senior leadership of the PKK, designating Murat Karayılan, the head of the PKK, and high-ranking members Ali Riza Altun and Zübeyir Aydar as foreign narcotics traffickers at the request of Turkey.[173] On 20 April 2011, the U.S. Department of the Treasury announced the designation of PKK founders Cemîl Bayik and Duran Kalkan and other high-ranking members as Specially Designated Narcotics Traffickers (SDNT) pursuant to the Foreign Narcotics Kingpin Designation Act (Kingpin Act). Pursuant to the Kingpin Act, the designation freezes any assets the designees may have under U.S. jurisdiction and prohibits U.S. persons from conducting financial or commercial transactions with these individuals.

According to research conducted by journalist Aliza Marcus, the PKK accepted the support of smugglers in the region. Aliza Marcus claimed that some of those Kurdish smuggler who involved in the drugs trade, either because they truly believed in the PKK—or because they thought it a good business practice(avoid conflicts)—frequently donated money to the PKK rebels. She also claimed that there were reports of PKK supporters in Europe who used their positions and contacts to trade in drugs—and then handed some of the profits to the PKK. And when PKK activists needed more money, they had no qualms about approaching Kurds who trafficked in narcotics. However, according to Aliza Marcus, it does not seem that the PKK, as an organization, directly produced or traded in narcotics.[176]
Following the SDF capture of Raqqa, YPJ and YPG troops raised a large banner of Abdullah Öcalan in the city centre.

In 2018, the state-run new agency AA claimed that the PKK has successfully kept its drug production and trafficking activities underground, both across the globe and within Turkey, and that the security forces had carried out more than 414 drug trafficking operations against the organization since the 1980. The Turkish authorities have also claimed that the organization gains 1,5 billion USD yearly from drug trafficking

and then you have YPG faction

Quote
n June 2014, Human Rights Watch criticized the YPG for accepting minors into their ranks,[135] picking up on multiple earlier reports of teenage fighters serving in the YPG, with a report by the United Nations Secretary General stating that 24 minors under age of 18 had been recruited by YPG, with 124 having been recruited by the Free Syrian Army and 5 by the Syrian Arab Army.[136] In response, the YPG and YPJ signed the Geneva Call Deed of Commitment protecting children in armed conflict, prohibiting sexual violence and against gender discrimination in July 2014,[137] and Kurdish security forces (YPG and Asayish) began receiving human rights training from Geneva Call and other international organisations with the YPG pledging publicly to demobilize all fighters under 18 within a month and began to enact disciplinary measures against commanders of the units that had involved in corruption and accepting recruit under age of 18 to their ranks.[138][139] In October 2015 the YPG demobilized 21 minors from the military service in its ranks.

In response to reports issued by international organisations such as Human Rights Watch,[141] the general command of the SDF issued a military order prohibiting the recruitment of children.
According to the annual UN report of 2018, there were 224 cases of child recruitment by the YPG and its women’s unit, the YPJ, in 2017, an almost fivefold increase from the previous year

They have been accused of creating displacement of families and ethnic cleansing.   Nice guys, eh?

So I think it is more a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend and not an ally.   But still wrong to abandon them after using them on many levels but that has been US policy for decades.

10,000 of their fighters died batting ISIS alongside our advisors with our equipment under cover form our aircraft. They are our ally.

Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #248 on: October 23, 2019, 02:06:37 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Since its foundation, the PKK has recruited new fighters mainly from Turkey, but also from Syria, Iraq, Iran, and
...


They have been accused of creating displacement of families and ethnic cleansing.   Nice guys, eh?

So I think it is more a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend and not an ally.   But still wrong to abandon them after using them on many levels but that has been US policy for decades.

You are conflating the PKK and the SDF.  While both are ethnic Kurdish, they are two different groups of people with two very different goals.

The SDF have been our allies, with over 10 thousand of them dying in common cause warfare for our purposes.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 02:33:52 PM by mmmmm »
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Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #249 on: October 23, 2019, 04:25:38 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Telling article in TheAtlantic, asking various military officers about their experiences working under our current Commander in Chief.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/military-officers-trump/598360/

Warning - some may find parts of this disturbing.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #250 on: October 23, 2019, 05:15:31 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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The Kurds seem to see things differently. I guess some would see this as Kurdish propaganda?

https://anfenglishmobile.com/features/pkk-letter-to-the-american-people-and-president-trump-38561

“We are not guilty of terrorism; we are victims of state terrorism. But we are guilty of defending our people”, said the PKK in its letter addressing to the American people and president.”

"PKK WAS FOUNDED TO RESIST THE TURKISH STATE VIOLENCE"

“For years, the Kurdish people had asked these governments only for the basic democratic rights that you enjoy each day: the right to exist, to speak their own language, to practice their own culture, to participate in politics as free and equal citizens.”


Re: United States Abandoning Kurdish Allies in North East Syria
« Reply #251 on: October 23, 2019, 05:18:05 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Telling article in TheAtlantic, asking various military officers about their experiences working under our current Commander in Chief.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/military-officers-trump/598360/

Warning - some may find parts of this disturbing.
good lord that's a long article.  good read.  a lot of stuff that doesn't seem at all surprising though