Poll

Where do you currently stand on the impeachment/removal from office of President Trump?

Against impeachment, and furthermore this is a witch hunt.
4 (10%)
Against impeachment, evidence evidence of wrongdoing is lacking
1 (2.5%)
Against impeachment, the wrongdoing is not worthy of impeachment
0 (0%)
For impeachment, but against removal (a rebuke of the presdients actions)
2 (5%)
For impeachment, for removal
30 (75%)
I can't decide. I will wait and see as inquiry proceeds.
3 (7.5%)
I haven't followed this closely enough to have an opinion.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)  (Read 41986 times)

Fan from VT, Roy H., nickagneta, keevsnick, saltlover, President Red (+ 1 Hidden) and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1080 on: October 12, 2019, 11:09:28 AM »

Online keevsnick

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I wonder if the left went around calling every Republican conservative an alt-right racist if it would have the same affect as the right's constant attack of calling every lefty a socialist?

Please note I never labeled anyone as a socialist.   Besides you 'd be doing what some in the left already do play the race card at every offense.   It would be nothing new.
Not saying you did. Mine is a bit more of a social experiment. Since the strategy that the Republican decision makers are using is to label every Dem a socialist so that their core followers get excited about running out to make sure no Dems get voted in, I just wonder if the left did the same thing how the right would receive things.

The Dems should just use the same strategy and label every Republican running for office as alt-right racists, even though that is about as true as every Dem being a socialist.

They already do. George Bush was called a racist. Romney was. McCain was.

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/453892-media-cried-wolf-calling-every-republican-a-racist-lost-its-bite
Not with the dedication of frequency from across massive swaths of the party the way that the Republicans label any politician on the left that is very liberal. Not anywhere close.

The reason being, labeling Dems as Socialists is a key, RNC strategy and promoted talking point. So you have Republican politicians and media doing it all across the country.

I just think maybe the Dem politicians and media should be doing what the Republican counterparts do and wrongfully and unfairly label them. Maybe it's time for Dems to rile up their base and as a talking point just label Republicans wrongfully and unfairly as alt right racists....like a lot....like every time their names are mentioned...sort of like what current Republican politicians and media are doing presently.

I suspect that that strategy would just get more Republicans to the polls. Ask Hillary how the “deplorables” comment worked out.

Why do you find equivalence between “socialist” and “racist”, though?   Why run from socialism? Raising taxes for universal healthcare, education, etc. Forgiving student loans, heavily regulating business, redistribution of wealth from the wealthiest class.  It’s basically Western European socialism. Why not own it?

Democrats should. Those ideas poll well, its a messaging problem not a idea problem. My biggest criticism of Democrats is that they are cowards. Republicans try to change public opinion, democrats hide from it.

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1081 on: October 12, 2019, 11:15:38 AM »

Online nickagneta

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I wonder if the left went around calling every Republican conservative an alt-right racist if it would have the same affect as the right's constant attack of calling every lefty a socialist?

Please note I never labeled anyone as a socialist.   Besides you 'd be doing what some in the left already do play the race card at every offense.   It would be nothing new.
Not saying you did. Mine is a bit more of a social experiment. Since the strategy that the Republican decision makers are using is to label every Dem a socialist so that their core followers get excited about running out to make sure no Dems get voted in, I just wonder if the left did the same thing how the right would receive things.

The Dems should just use the same strategy and label every Republican running for office as alt-right racists, even though that is about as true as every Dem being a socialist.

They already do. George Bush was called a racist. Romney was. McCain was.

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/453892-media-cried-wolf-calling-every-republican-a-racist-lost-its-bite
Not with the dedication of frequency from across massive swaths of the party the way that the Republicans label any politician on the left that is very liberal. Not anywhere close.

The reason being, labeling Dems as Socialists is a key, RNC strategy and promoted talking point. So you have Republican politicians and media doing it all across the country.

I just think maybe the Dem politicians and media should be doing what the Republican counterparts do and wrongfully and unfairly label them. Maybe it's time for Dems to rile up their base and as a talking point just label Republicans wrongfully and unfairly as alt right racists....like a lot....like every time their names are mentioned...sort of like what current Republican politicians and media are doing presently.

I suspect that that strategy would just get more Republicans to the polls. Ask Hillary how the “deplorables” comment worked out.

Why do you find equivalence between “socialist” and “racist”, though?   Why run from socialism? Raising taxes for universal healthcare, education, etc. Forgiving student loans, heavily regulating business, redistribution of wealth from the wealthiest class.  It’s basically Western European socialism. Why not own it?
I equivocate "socialist" and "racist" because both terms, IMO, are wrongfully and unfairly applied and neither side like to be broadly labeled as such. Also, much as all people see racist as a strongly negative label, most on the right see socialism as strongly negative.

When Republicans label Dems as Socialists they aren't using that in a positive manner. They aren't using the term as a descriptive like say liberal or Hispanic or female or Christian are used as descriptives. They are using it in a derogatory manner, as an insult.

As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.


Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1082 on: October 12, 2019, 11:31:27 AM »

Online Roy H.

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As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.

The percentage of Republicans who are “alt-right racists” is what, 2%? Less?  I think that the majority of Democrats probably believe in socialist values. I would think that Democrats would wear that as a badge of honor. Bernie and AOC don’t run from it. Why should Warren?

I honestly think that if Dems focused on pushing socialist ideas, rather than focusing on identity politics, they’d be fairly unstoppable. But, they’ve moved away from being a working class party to one that tends to reject mainstream concerns. It’s a branding issue. To speak frankly, they’ve already got a coalition of minorities, LGBT, government workers and social welfare recipients who are going to vote for them regardless. Why not appeal to the working class that is trying to get ahead, but can’t?

If I were a Democrat, I’d run on drastically raising taxes on those making $500k+, ending the upper limit on SS contributions, and eliminating all taxes on the first $100k in household income. Talk about universal healthcare and free education, and frame it in moral terms. Mix in a little God talk, and Republicans would never win another national election.

Meanwhile, we get this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/10/09/politics/elizabeth-warren-environmental-justice-plan/index.html
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 12:14:42 PM by Roy H. »
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Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1083 on: October 12, 2019, 12:01:16 PM »

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The problem with Democrats is not what they preach, it is that they do not believe what they preach. They are not passionate about what they preach, they do not benefit personally (other than winning votes) from what they preach, therefore they will never go to the lengths of Republicans to fight for those policies. In other words, the Democrats benefit from Republican policies (other than losing votes) than they benefit from their own policies.

The above phenomenon is why Republicans fight much harder and ferociously for their policies, whereas Democrats are more reserved in their fights.

As to political labels, these should be left to the gullible. There is no pure capitalist system where things are left to the invisible hand of the market. That is a farce. If things were everything were left to the market, as they should be in a pure capitalist system, we should not have FDIC insured deposits, should not have had bailout of the Savings and Loans, we should not have had the government bailout of the auto industries, or the 2008 bailout of the financial crisis. Why not have defense of the great system handled by the market? When it comes to labeling, again Democrats are more honest than Republicans but they still do not buy in to the general socialist principles because it affects their pockets just as much as it does Republicans. They will spout lip service to have a different perspective, after all to compete you must have opposing views. That is why these parties are lighter versions of each other on the political divide. Republicans run on fiscal probity and conservatism but run up the deficit and national debt, yet the Democrats actually come in and clean up the financial mess usually created by Republicans. Solve that conundrum.

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1084 on: October 12, 2019, 12:43:08 PM »

Online nickagneta

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As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.

The percentage of Republicans who are “alt-right racists” is what, 2%? Less?  I think that the majority of Democrats probably believe in socialist values.
Well, first off, I think your 2% number is really low. Like really, really low. I know I have been in all white gatherings where alcohol was involved and usually good Republican people say some pretty disturbing stuff. And I have seen that a lot

Also, no I don't think most Democrats have socialist values. I think most Democrats have liberal values. Huge difference.

I find your statement very wrong, in my experiences, much the way, I am sure, you will think my statements wrong.

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1085 on: October 12, 2019, 03:44:55 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Well, first off, I think your 2% number is really low. Like really, really low. I know I have been in all white gatherings where alcohol was involved and usually good Republican people say some pretty disturbing stuff. And I have seen that a lot

Also, no I don't think most Democrats have socialist values. I think most Democrats have liberal values. Huge difference.

I don't know about these polls but these articles seem to imply most Dems support Socialism.   It really don't depends on what is considered socialism.

Quote
While 77 percent of Democrats believe that the country would be “better off” if it were more socialist, overall a majority of voters don’t, by a margin of 51 percent to 45 percent, according to the latest Public Opinion Strategies survey.


    The partisan gap on this question is more like a chasm. Democrats agree with the notion that the country would be better off if our political and economic systems were more socialist by a whopping 77 percent to 19 percent margin, while Republicans (14 percent to 83 percent) and Independents (37 percent to 56 percent) strongly disagree.

    Voter intensity is on the ‘disagree’ side — 23 percent of voters strongly agree with this statement while 41 percent strongly disagree. There is a wide generational divide on this question, with younger voters (under age 45) agreeing with the statement by a 53 percent to 40 percent margin, and older voters disagreeing by 60 percent to 38 percent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/socialized-health-care-in-the-us-suddenly-that-sounds-a-lot-less-crazy/2017/09/13/20b88d88-98cb-11e7-82e4-f1076f6d6152_story.html

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/2020-poll-77-dems-back-socialism-but-most-voters-dont

Quote
According to a Gallup poll published Monday, a majority of Democrats no longer hold a positive view of capitalism, while nearly 60 percent of them feel good about socialism

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/08/14/democrats-prefer-socialism-capitalism-gallup-poll/988558002/

Now personally, I think we have some fine socialist programs have been successful here.  Social Security and Medicare have both worked well for many years I know they may be in trouble in the future though.   But to me, not all socialism has been bad, folks.

I have also lived overseas while in the service have some Canadian friends who moved to the US and they told me that the only time they have had to wait in long lines was in the USA.  They certainly pay more taxes though, but my daughter received care while in Germany and it was fantastic and free.  I don't think some Socialist things are inherrently bad but some of the proposals in the debates like free health care to illegal immigrants is stupid beyond folly to me.

Take a look at this

https://i2.wp.com/cnmnewz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/new-york-post-cover-on-democrats-promising-illegal-aliens-free-health-care-who-wants-to-lose-the-election.png?fit=708%2C792&ssl=1

I think it is true but I am sure it is popular in the liberal coasts.   Parties change, the Dems of 10 years are not the dems of today and the same is true of the GOP which has been Trumpinized.     I think though that they are plenty of liberals and conservatives out there who do not fit within the party norms of the modern incarnations of their political parties.


Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1086 on: October 12, 2019, 03:52:28 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.

The percentage of Republicans who are “alt-right racists” is what, 2%? Less?  I think that the majority of Democrats probably believe in socialist values. I would think that Democrats would wear that as a badge of honor. Bernie and AOC don’t run from it. Why should Warren?


I could be wrong, but I actually think a majority of republicans believe in socialistic values.

First off, most republicans believe in equality generally, and equal opportunity for all (as a value). In terms of policy, most republicans I know support public education, social security, Medicare, some degree of environmental protection, public infrastructure support, and certainly some public health considerations that address the “general welfare”.  It’s really  not about WHETHER we incorporate socialistic ideals into public policy but the degree to which we do. Many (me included) feel some of Liz’s plans take a step too far, and these ultra-progressive views leave her vulnerable to being branded a Socialist.

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1087 on: October 12, 2019, 05:15:45 PM »

Offline OnPoint

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As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.

The percentage of Republicans who are “alt-right racists” is what, 2%? Less?  I think that the majority of Democrats probably believe in socialist values. I would think that Democrats would wear that as a badge of honor. Bernie and AOC don’t run from it. Why should Warren?


I could be wrong, but I actually think a majority of republicans believe in socialistic values.

First off, most republicans believe in equality generally, and equal opportunity for all (as a value). In terms of policy, most republicans I know support public education, social security, Medicare, some degree of environmental protection, public infrastructure support, and certainly some public health considerations that address the “general welfare”.  It’s really  not about WHETHER we incorporate socialistic ideals into public policy but the degree to which we do. Many (me included) feel some of Liz’s plans take a step too far, and these ultra-progressive views leave her vulnerable to being branded a Socialist.

So if one is not an AnCap, he or she essentially supports some form of socialism, which in your eyes seems to be tax supported goods and services. Interesting

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1088 on: October 12, 2019, 05:28:10 PM »

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As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.

The percentage of Republicans who are “alt-right racists” is what, 2%? Less?  I think that the majority of Democrats probably believe in socialist values. I would think that Democrats would wear that as a badge of honor. Bernie and AOC don’t run from it. Why should Warren?


I could be wrong, but I actually think a majority of republicans believe in socialistic values.

First off, most republicans believe in equality generally, and equal opportunity for all (as a value). In terms of policy, most republicans I know support public education, social security, Medicare, some degree of environmental protection, public infrastructure support, and certainly some public health considerations that address the “general welfare”.  It’s really  not about WHETHER we incorporate socialistic ideals into public policy but the degree to which we do. Many (me included) feel some of Liz’s plans take a step too far, and these ultra-progressive views leave her vulnerable to being branded a Socialist.

I would be fine with more socialistic policies, if the programs were paid for, quality didn’t go down and taxes on the middle and working classes didn’t drastically go up.

I personally like the military model of free education in return for a certain number of years of public service.  I think that that would find wide support among both parties if administered properly.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 07:02:38 PM by Roy H. »
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Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1089 on: October 12, 2019, 06:49:58 PM »

Online keevsnick

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As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.

The percentage of Republicans who are “alt-right racists” is what, 2%? Less?  I think that the majority of Democrats probably believe in socialist values. I would think that Democrats would wear that as a badge of honor. Bernie and AOC don’t run from it. Why should Warren?


I could be wrong, but I actually think a majority of republicans believe in socialistic values.

First off, most republicans believe in equality generally, and equal opportunity for all (as a value). In terms of policy, most republicans I know support public education, social security, Medicare, some degree of environmental protection, public infrastructure support, and certainly some public health considerations that address the “general welfare”.  It’s really  not about WHETHER we incorporate socialistic ideals into public policy but the degree to which we do. Many (me included) feel some of Liz’s plans take a step too far, and these ultra-progressive views leave her vulnerable to being branded a Socialist.

I think having a plan that goes a step tooo far is better than having literally no plan at all, and thats where we are currently at. Its not like Warren is running against somebody with center moderate views who is clearly articulating a message. The entire list of Donald Trump achievements is tax cuts for the rich, trade war that has slowed economic growth, no clear foreign policy strategy,  kids in cages and trying to take away health insurance with no actual back up plan. I mean next to that I think more people will take "a step too far." I'm not making this argument to disparage trump supporter, I' merely pointing out that if Republicans wnat to make this actually about policy then thats an argument democrats can win. But they actually have to have someone who articulates a clear policy, and Warren does that.

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1090 on: October 12, 2019, 08:42:13 PM »

Offline pablohoney

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As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.

The percentage of Republicans who are “alt-right racists” is what, 2%? Less?  I think that the majority of Democrats probably believe in socialist values. I would think that Democrats would wear that as a badge of honor. Bernie and AOC don’t run from it. Why should Warren?

I honestly think that if Dems focused on pushing socialist ideas, rather than focusing on identity politics, they’d be fairly unstoppable. But, they’ve moved away from being a working class party to one that tends to reject mainstream concerns. It’s a branding issue. To speak frankly, they’ve already got a coalition of minorities, LGBT, government workers and social welfare recipients who are going to vote for them regardless. Why not appeal to the working class that is trying to get ahead, but can’t?

If I were a Democrat, I’d run on drastically raising taxes on those making $500k+, ending the upper limit on SS contributions, and eliminating all taxes on the first $100k in household income. Talk about universal healthcare and free education, and frame it in moral terms. Mix in a little God talk, and Republicans would never win another national election.

Meanwhile, we get this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/10/09/politics/elizabeth-warren-environmental-justice-plan/index.html

Many democrats would like to see a system more like Britain, Canada, Australia or Germany.  So why do Republicans keep comparing Dems to Venezuela or Cuba?  What is it that Republicans want? We are already far to right of all the other economically strong democracies like Japan or Denmark.  So what is it that Republicans want us to be like? Would we really like to be more like Saudi Arabia or Brazil?  Is it 1930s Germany?  Is it pre-depression Robber Baron USA?

Republicans always seem to have nostalgia for the good old days.  We used to have 70% taxes like Canada and powerful unions before Reagan.....the good old days (post WW2 to Nixon) were far more “socialist” than today.

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1091 on: October 12, 2019, 09:19:35 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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To speak frankly, they’ve already got a coalition of minorities, LGBT, government workers and social welfare recipients who are going to vote for them regardless. Why not appeal to the working class that is trying to get ahead, but can’t?

Very interesting to frame these as different groups. If you take minorities, LGBT, government workers, and public aid recipients out of the working class, who's left that should be appealed to?

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1092 on: October 12, 2019, 09:40:19 PM »

Online Roy H.

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To speak frankly, they’ve already got a coalition of minorities, LGBT, government workers and social welfare recipients who are going to vote for them regardless. Why not appeal to the working class that is trying to get ahead, but can’t?

Very interesting to frame these as different groups. If you take minorities, LGBT, government workers, and public aid recipients out of the working class, who's left that should be appealed to?

Plenty of folks who don’t fit into any of those categories.  By definition, straight Caucasians who are working and struggling to get by.  In other words, the voters who won Trump the election.
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Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1093 on: October 12, 2019, 10:27:47 PM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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As for owning what in America is a derogatory term, the answer is why won't Republicans own the term racist? Clearly white nationalism and racism run rampant through certain sections of the party. Why not own the term racist since it is prevalent in the party? Well, the answer to that is the same reason the Dems won't own socialist.

The percentage of Republicans who are “alt-right racists” is what, 2%? Less?  I think that the majority of Democrats probably believe in socialist values.
Well, first off, I think your 2% number is really low. Like really, really low. I know I have been in all white gatherings where alcohol was involved and usually good Republican people say some pretty disturbing stuff. And I have seen that a lot

Also, no I don't think most Democrats have socialist values. I think most Democrats have liberal values. Huge difference.

I find your statement very wrong, in my experiences, much the way, I am sure, you will think my statements wrong.

I have to agree on 2% being too low. I live firmly around Trump Country and the amount of Trump/Confederate flag combos I’ve seen feel all too common.

Re: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)
« Reply #1094 on: October 12, 2019, 10:38:15 PM »

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trumps-envoy-to-testify-that-no-quid-pro-quo-came-from-trump/ar-AAIGOD4?ocid=spartanntp

Sondland plans to tell congress that his denial of a quid pro quo found in texts between himself and Taylor came directly from Trump.

From the article:

“It’s only true that the president said it, not that it was the truth,” said the person familiar with Sondland’s planned testimony, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive diplomatic matters.