Poll

Where do you currently stand on the impeachment/removal from office of President Trump?

Against impeachment, and furthermore this is a witch hunt.
4 (10%)
Against impeachment, evidence evidence of wrongdoing is lacking
1 (2.5%)
Against impeachment, the wrongdoing is not worthy of impeachment
0 (0%)
For impeachment, but against removal (a rebuke of the presdients actions)
2 (5%)
For impeachment, for removal
30 (75%)
I can't decide. I will wait and see as inquiry proceeds.
3 (7.5%)
I haven't followed this closely enough to have an opinion.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: This Ukraine thing (aka, the impeachment thing)  (Read 42065 times)

blink, feckless, mqtcelticsfan, Fan from VT (+ 1 Hidden) and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2019, 12:47:02 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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As I just said in another thread, we can't take pretexts as face value.  Using common sense, Hunter Biden isn't the target of any investigation because he engaged in corruption.  Rather, it's to make Joe Biden look bad.  Everybody knows that.  Maybe the pretext is enough to make this legal, but we all know the intent here.  If Hunter Biden's name was Hunter McConnell, there would be no Trump-backed investigation, no offers of quid pro quo, etc.

This is a rather sober assessment.  I read that the legislature in Ukraine had voted overwhelmingly to remove the Prosecutor guy at the time that Biden made his infamous bragging comment.  Further, there was no Ukrainian investigation of Hunter Biden or the company he was on the board of.  So there is no honest way to link Biden's statements to any reaction by Ukraine that would benefit Joe or Hunter Biden.

Further, if there was any suspicion of corruption by Biden, the justice department would have to present its case to a grade jury and get an indictment.  From there, there is a process for the State Department to request evidence from the proper authorities in the Ukraine.  Of course, there is no investigation, no grand jury, no State Dept request, just Trump, abusing his power again.

I understand this is all still "alleged" but that he would do this should surprise no one and don't forget that by preventing the release of the information to congress, he is obstruction justice again.

What is it going to take people?

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2019, 02:31:58 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Is this the complaint registered to the DNI that the Administration, the Justice Department and the Inspector General's office was trying to cover up and hide?

This administration loves covering things up and stonewalling investigations. Yes, the asking for a quid pro quo to another country for political dirt is massively wrong, but so is the cover up. That, if it isn't, should be a crime.

And if this administration is covering that up, what else is it covering up with all across the board ignoring of subpoenas, suing to stop access to his taxes, and claiming privilege in every attempt to try to investigate him? The across the board obstructionism by the administration and the Justice Department on his behalf is quite disturbing. Whatever Trump is hiding, you can bet, is very bad for his political career.

One argument that I'd be interested in examining is whether Trump essentially waives executive privilege by having his team talk about this stuff publicly.  If Rudy can go on TV and allege that the administrating was investigating Hunter Biden for corruption, and they needed help in that investigation, doesn't that at least take away some of the justification for keeping the reports secret (particularly from Congress)?

As I just said in another thread, we can't take pretexts as face value.  Using common sense, Hunter Biden isn't the target of any investigation because he engaged in corruption.  Rather, it's to make Joe Biden look bad.  Everybody knows that.  Maybe the pretext is enough to make this legal, but we all know the intent here.  If Hunter Biden's name was Hunter McConnell, there would be no Trump-backed investigation, no offers of quid pro quo, etc.

TP.  This is a fair-minded assessment and it’s really appreciated. Perfectly said.

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2019, 04:20:03 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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The whistleblower presented a complaint to the intelligence community IG for evaluation, and the IG concluded it met the statutory standard: a "credible" complaint about an "urgent matter". This IG was not a Democrat (he's a Trump appointee) and the statute he applied does *not* include the forwarding of complaints that amount to policy disagreements.

To Republicans inclined to minimize this, I would ask you to consider how you would react if the next Democratic PotUS asks the Chinese to investigate the son or daughter of the Republican frontrunner - and tells them their response will decide an important foreign policy question - say, whether he will support arms sales to Taiwan.

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2019, 05:32:37 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
To Republicans inclined to minimize this, I would ask you to consider how you would react if the next Democratic PotUS asks the Chinese to investigate the son or daughter of the Republican frontrunner - and tells them their response will decide an important foreign policy question - say, whether he will support arms sales to Taiwan.

We already had a sitting president do this who was not named Nixon.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/18/obama-spied-trumps-campaign-wheres-outrage/

Which is just as bad, but I agree this might be the thing that gets Pres. Trump and if he did it.  Time will tell.  Once, again, where was the outrage then?  Both were wrong to do what they did.

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2019, 06:02:17 PM »

Offline liam

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To Republicans inclined to minimize this, I would ask you to consider how you would react if the next Democratic PotUS asks the Chinese to investigate the son or daughter of the Republican frontrunner - and tells them their response will decide an important foreign policy question - say, whether he will support arms sales to Taiwan.

We already had a sitting president do this who was not named Nixon.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/18/obama-spied-trumps-campaign-wheres-outrage/

Which is just as bad, but I agree this might be the thing that gets Pres. Trump and if he did it.  Time will tell.  Once, again, where was the outrage then?  Both were wrong to do what they did.

Oh cool, The Washington Times, now I can read more about Seth Rich and how climate change is a hoax!

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2019, 06:02:39 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Quote
To Republicans inclined to minimize this, I would ask you to consider how you would react if the next Democratic PotUS asks the Chinese to investigate the son or daughter of the Republican frontrunner - and tells them their response will decide an important foreign policy question - say, whether he will support arms sales to Taiwan.

We already had a sitting president do this who was not named Nixon.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/18/obama-spied-trumps-campaign-wheres-outrage/

Which is just as bad, but I agree this might be the thing that gets Pres. Trump and if he did it.  Time will tell.  Once, again, where was the outrage then?  Both were wrong to do what they did.

I know this is your thing, but “where was the outrage then” is just not actionable. Should there be outrage no matter which party — absolutely! This presidency should serve as a lesson to all — behavior matters, and spin and rationalizations to support a political outcome are wrong.  But right now real action is available to us on one front (if there is credible evidence that Biden acted poorly, then he should be defeated soundly in the primaries) but frankly, the “whataboutism” should be background noise - not irrelevant— but far less important than unified action against POTUS if there is credible evidence against him. 

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2019, 08:12:26 PM »

Offline bellerephon

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Quote
To Republicans inclined to minimize this, I would ask you to consider how you would react if the next Democratic PotUS asks the Chinese to investigate the son or daughter of the Republican frontrunner - and tells them their response will decide an important foreign policy question - say, whether he will support arms sales to Taiwan.

We already had a sitting president do this who was not named Nixon.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/18/obama-spied-trumps-campaign-wheres-outrage/

Which is just as bad, but I agree this might be the thing that gets Pres. Trump and if he did it.  Time will tell.  Once, again, where was the outrage then?  Both were wrong to do what they did.

I know this is your thing, but “where was the outrage then” is just not actionable. Should there be outrage no matter which party — absolutely! This presidency should serve as a lesson to all — behavior matters, and spin and rationalizations to support a political outcome are wrong.  But right now real action is available to us on one front (if there is credible evidence that Biden acted poorly, then he should be defeated soundly in the primaries) but frankly, the “whataboutism” should be background noise - not irrelevant— but far less important than unified action against POTUS if there is credible evidence against him.
I understand your point, but the problem is that people only make this argument when their opponents are in office. There is no incentive for Republicans to help Democrats go after Trump because there is no reason to believe that Democrats would reciprocate if the tables were turned.

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2019, 09:00:53 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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Quote
To Republicans inclined to minimize this, I would ask you to consider how you would react if the next Democratic PotUS asks the Chinese to investigate the son or daughter of the Republican frontrunner - and tells them their response will decide an important foreign policy question - say, whether he will support arms sales to Taiwan.

We already had a sitting president do this who was not named Nixon.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/18/obama-spied-trumps-campaign-wheres-outrage/

Which is just as bad, but I agree this might be the thing that gets Pres. Trump and if he did it.  Time will tell.  Once, again, where was the outrage then?  Both were wrong to do what they did.

I know this is your thing, but “where was the outrage then” is just not actionable. Should there be outrage no matter which party — absolutely! This presidency should serve as a lesson to all — behavior matters, and spin and rationalizations to support a political outcome are wrong.  But right now real action is available to us on one front (if there is credible evidence that Biden acted poorly, then he should be defeated soundly in the primaries) but frankly, the “whataboutism” should be background noise - not irrelevant— but far less important than unified action against POTUS if there is credible evidence against him.
I understand your point, but the problem is that people only make this argument when their opponents are in office. There is no incentive for Republicans to help Democrats go after Trump because there is no reason to believe that Democrats would reciprocate if the tables were turned.

None whatever, except for the solemn oath that they’ve given to uphold the constitution.  That, apparently, is not a sufficient incentive for today’s Republicans.
· Team executive on Brown’s future: “All-Star. Multiple times. Just like Jayson. Everyone loves Kawhi and PG as a wing duo. We think we have our own version growing right here in Boston. It’s gonna take a couple more years, but those guys are stars. And neither has an ego. They just want to play and win.”

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2019, 04:32:43 AM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Quote
To Republicans inclined to minimize this, I would ask you to consider how you would react if the next Democratic PotUS asks the Chinese to investigate the son or daughter of the Republican frontrunner - and tells them their response will decide an important foreign policy question - say, whether he will support arms sales to Taiwan.

We already had a sitting president do this who was not named Nixon.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/18/obama-spied-trumps-campaign-wheres-outrage/

Which is just as bad, but I agree this might be the thing that gets Pres. Trump and if he did it.  Time will tell.  Once, again, where was the outrage then?  Both were wrong to do what they did.

I know this is your thing, but “where was the outrage then” is just not actionable. Should there be outrage no matter which party — absolutely! This presidency should serve as a lesson to all — behavior matters, and spin and rationalizations to support a political outcome are wrong.  But right now real action is available to us on one front (if there is credible evidence that Biden acted poorly, then he should be defeated soundly in the primaries) but frankly, the “whataboutism” should be background noise - not irrelevant— but far less important than unified action against POTUS if there is credible evidence against him.
I understand your point, but the problem is that people only make this argument when their opponents are in office. There is no incentive for Republicans to help Democrats go after Trump because there is no reason to believe that Democrats would reciprocate if the tables were turned.
Well... not that I think we’re moving in the right direction on this, but there is precedent on both sides for ethics trumping (so to speak) party (let’s just say it’s happened on occasion that each side has turned on it’s own in the face of enough evidence — exceptions to this notwithstanding).

 Massachusetts Dems have a pretty shameful history of ignoring ethical considerations (TedK; Gerry Studds) and voting party.

Admittedly, I am asking republicans to do what Dems perhaps wouldn’t do in like circumstances — we won’t know till Dems are given their next opportunity.  But right now, the opportunity rests with republicans.

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2019, 08:13:38 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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There is no incentive for Republicans to help Democrats go after Trump because there is no reason to believe that Democrats would reciprocate if the tables were turned.

I think if it can be proved that Pres. Trump did this he ought to be impeached.

Quote
I know this is your thing, but “where was the outrage then” is just not actionable.

Hypocrisy never gets old.

For the record, I think it is wrong when either party does stuff.   And the Democratic and Republic Party have failed America ( sorry to go Green Arrow on you)   they care more about staying in power and the status quo than fixing problems.   Supporting one is like picking your poison because both stink to high heck.

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2019, 08:35:25 AM »

Online nickagneta

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Can't wait to see how long it takes to get the transcripts of the phone call.

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2019, 08:58:37 AM »

Online feckless

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The law calls for the whistleblowers letter to go to congress.
Follow the law.
Days up and down they come, like rain on a conga drum, forget most, remember some, don't turn none away.   Townes Van Zandt

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2019, 09:20:25 AM »

Online nickagneta

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The law calls for the whistleblowers letter to go to congress.
Follow the law.
This President, and by extension this administration, I have found lives by the old WWE wrestling notion of "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!"

This administration, more than any other in my lifetime, and that includes Nixon's administration, uses the law as a Crux in breaking the law. Break the law if it helps you personally, then either claim privlidge, obstruct like crazy or sue, to hide from prosecution. Following the rules of law is not a priority for this administration.


Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2019, 01:40:19 PM »

Online Ogaju

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The law calls for the whistleblowers letter to go to congress.
Follow the law.
This President, and by extension this administration, I have found lives by the old WWE wrestling notion of "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!"

This administration, more than any other in my lifetime, and that includes Nixon's administration, uses the law as a Crux in breaking the law. Break the law if it helps you personally, then either claim privlidge, obstruct like crazy or sue, to hide from prosecution. Following the rules of law is not a priority for this administration.

Interesting point you make because I was going to post a rhetorical question yesterday, but I was not sure if it was relevant to this thread. Your post makes it relevant. Can the use of an available legal process be the subject of an obstruction of justice charge?

Re: This Ukraine thing...
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2019, 03:02:26 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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There is no incentive for Republicans to help Democrats go after Trump because there is no reason to believe that Democrats would reciprocate if the tables were turned.

I think if it can be proved that Pres. Trump did this he ought to be impeached.

Quote
I know this is your thing, but “where was the outrage then” is just not actionable.

Hypocrisy never gets old.

For the record, I think it is wrong when either party does stuff.   And the Democratic and Republic Party have failed America ( sorry to go Green Arrow on you)   they care more about staying in power and the status quo than fixing problems.   Supporting one is like picking your poison because both stink to high heck.

I am not quite as down on the parties as you are -- this country has been a pretty good place to live for the last 60 years -- for me, anyway, and Dems and Repubs have run the show that entire time.  That said, I think both parties are flawed and both have/had members who are ethically challenged -- and both have wrongly defended ethically-challenged leaders.  My point is simple -- when you harp on hypocrisy as the main point (I think by now we all know that there are examples of  blatant hypocrisy on both sides), then you sound as though you are defending the current culprit (taking focus off of him).  The current scoundrel happens to be the current leader of the free world.  Pretty imperative, I think, to be focused on the present implications of having this abomination in office rather than focusing on prior abominations.