Author Topic: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?  (Read 6620 times)

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Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2019, 02:00:01 AM »

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

Quote
Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions.  Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

For the record, I think Clinton is a scumbag.  I liked many of his political views and voted for him twice.  While I gave him benefit of the doubt regarding affairs (which I regret) in 1992 and 1996, when news of the Lewinsky affair surfaced in 1998, I was disgusted and have been a Clinton hater ever since.

Sometimes (Nixon, Clinton, Trump) people are too bad for me to accept that they can be the leader of my country even if they support things that I support.  Arguing that Dems voted for a scumbag is not really the best justification for voting for a scumbag.  Obviously, I didn't pick it up quickly enough to withhold my vote from Bill (incidentally, I liked neither Hillary nor Bernie in 2016 and voted for Kasich in the primary -- but yes, Hillary over Donald), but the volume of evidence occurring daily v. Trump to me is overwhelming.  I've been known amongst my friends to voice the wish that Mike Pence -- who from a political standpoint I absolutely abhor - were president.   I don't expect squeaky clean from politicians, but when they are bad (and I realize it), I don't vote for them.  I didn't vote for Ted Kennedy over the last 20 years of his career (embarrassed that I did at one point) but thought he was a terrific senator and worked hard for many things I favored -- but a man who did what he did should not have been elected senator.  I hope there are enough conservatives willing to go to the left in order to get Donald out of office and out of our lives.

Iím curious, do you have any ďdealbreakerĒ issues, where if a candidate didnít see things your way you couldnít vote for him or her?

Without inviting discussion of the issue, Iím pro-life, and I just canít bring myself to vote for somebody who isnít in line with my views. Thus, even if a Dem were fairly conservative on fiscal issues, I just canít support them.

I think a lot of Dems have deal breakers that keep them from supporting moderate Republicans, etc.

No I donít have a deal-breaker issue. Though the closest Iíd come might be someone whoíd deny marriage rights to the LBGQT community - someone like Mike Pence.  And Iíd still vote for Pence over Trump.  If a person was a blatant racist or white supremacist (David Duke) that would be worse but thatís more of character or base ideological factor than a single issue litmus test.  And I donít consider Trump a racist/supremacist - despite his hideous racially divisive and insensitive tweets and policies.  He hurts people for reasons other than racism ó I believe the core of it is more Trump supremacist than white supremacist, meaning I think heís about his own ego and power ó the core of which is less about ďwhiteĒ vs. people of color than it is about sustaining adoration from people who salivate over him. 

I understand your view on the abortion issue. I disagree with you but your willingness to vote for such a human abomination - someone who from a morality perspective has to be the antithesis of what you would want from a president  - makes more sense to me in light of that issue.  I think you are dealing with the devil however.

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2019, 06:44:54 AM »

Online Roy H.

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

Quote
Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions.  Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

For the record, I think Clinton is a scumbag.  I liked many of his political views and voted for him twice.  While I gave him benefit of the doubt regarding affairs (which I regret) in 1992 and 1996, when news of the Lewinsky affair surfaced in 1998, I was disgusted and have been a Clinton hater ever since.

Sometimes (Nixon, Clinton, Trump) people are too bad for me to accept that they can be the leader of my country even if they support things that I support.  Arguing that Dems voted for a scumbag is not really the best justification for voting for a scumbag.  Obviously, I didn't pick it up quickly enough to withhold my vote from Bill (incidentally, I liked neither Hillary nor Bernie in 2016 and voted for Kasich in the primary -- but yes, Hillary over Donald), but the volume of evidence occurring daily v. Trump to me is overwhelming.  I've been known amongst my friends to voice the wish that Mike Pence -- who from a political standpoint I absolutely abhor - were president.   I don't expect squeaky clean from politicians, but when they are bad (and I realize it), I don't vote for them.  I didn't vote for Ted Kennedy over the last 20 years of his career (embarrassed that I did at one point) but thought he was a terrific senator and worked hard for many things I favored -- but a man who did what he did should not have been elected senator.  I hope there are enough conservatives willing to go to the left in order to get Donald out of office and out of our lives.

Iím curious, do you have any ďdealbreakerĒ issues, where if a candidate didnít see things your way you couldnít vote for him or her?

Without inviting discussion of the issue, Iím pro-life, and I just canít bring myself to vote for somebody who isnít in line with my views. Thus, even if a Dem were fairly conservative on fiscal issues, I just canít support them.

I think a lot of Dems have deal breakers that keep them from supporting moderate Republicans, etc. 
so again you've snuck in your position on the forbidden topic.  to me, this is hypocritical in light of your proclamation of being someone in support of a SC that has a strict interpretation of the Constitution because people of a like opinion base it on personal religious beliefs and want to violate the first amendment by (A) forcing their religious beliefs on others and by (B) interfering with free speech of a doctor discussing all treatment options with their patients including the forbidden topic.

I know someone of your position.  she loves Trump for the sole fact he's stacking the SC in regards to the forbidden topic.  her pious, ultra-religious views seem to fall by the wayside regarding all Trump's other reprehensible behavior just on this sole idea. 

horrifying that someone so reprehensible continues to be supported regardless of what he does no matter what someone's reason is.

Itís not a religious issue for me, and has nothing to do with the First Amendment.  Your interpretation of the First Amendment is way off, though.  Nothing in it suggests that those in government canít be informed by their religious views. Whether thatís Pence, Omar or Schumer, nothing in the Constitution requires them to leave their religion at the door.
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Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2019, 09:14:55 AM »

Offline heyvik

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

Quote
Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions. Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

As much as I am throwing up while writing this - this is uphill battle that the Dems face. Trump has a base that will NOT deter from him because of the basic views of Republicans - 'the forbidden topic' and economy. The SC nominations were just icing on the cake. You simply can't expect voters in 'essential' districts in swing states to change their votes because all they see are the perceived results - not the man himself. Trump is playing defense right now and is campaigning in important battleground states - he currently has momentum and sadly we could be looking at another (barf) 4 years.
I keep saying the only way to get around this is to take back the Senate in '20 and HOPE sometime surfaces in 2020-21 ish that derails the administration.

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2019, 01:25:45 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

Quote
Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions.  Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

For the record, I think Clinton is a scumbag.  I liked many of his political views and voted for him twice.  While I gave him benefit of the doubt regarding affairs (which I regret) in 1992 and 1996, when news of the Lewinsky affair surfaced in 1998, I was disgusted and have been a Clinton hater ever since.

Sometimes (Nixon, Clinton, Trump) people are too bad for me to accept that they can be the leader of my country even if they support things that I support.  Arguing that Dems voted for a scumbag is not really the best justification for voting for a scumbag.  Obviously, I didn't pick it up quickly enough to withhold my vote from Bill (incidentally, I liked neither Hillary nor Bernie in 2016 and voted for Kasich in the primary -- but yes, Hillary over Donald), but the volume of evidence occurring daily v. Trump to me is overwhelming.  I've been known amongst my friends to voice the wish that Mike Pence -- who from a political standpoint I absolutely abhor - were president.   I don't expect squeaky clean from politicians, but when they are bad (and I realize it), I don't vote for them.  I didn't vote for Ted Kennedy over the last 20 years of his career (embarrassed that I did at one point) but thought he was a terrific senator and worked hard for many things I favored -- but a man who did what he did should not have been elected senator.  I hope there are enough conservatives willing to go to the left in order to get Donald out of office and out of our lives.

Iím curious, do you have any ďdealbreakerĒ issues, where if a candidate didnít see things your way you couldnít vote for him or her?

Without inviting discussion of the issue, Iím pro-life, and I just canít bring myself to vote for somebody who isnít in line with my views. Thus, even if a Dem were fairly conservative on fiscal issues, I just canít support them.

I think a lot of Dems have deal breakers that keep them from supporting moderate Republicans, etc. 
so again you've snuck in your position on the forbidden topic.  to me, this is hypocritical in light of your proclamation of being someone in support of a SC that has a strict interpretation of the Constitution because people of a like opinion base it on personal religious beliefs and want to violate the first amendment by (A) forcing their religious beliefs on others and by (B) interfering with free speech of a doctor discussing all treatment options with their patients including the forbidden topic.

I know someone of your position.  she loves Trump for the sole fact he's stacking the SC in regards to the forbidden topic.  her pious, ultra-religious views seem to fall by the wayside regarding all Trump's other reprehensible behavior just on this sole idea. 

horrifying that someone so reprehensible continues to be supported regardless of what he does no matter what someone's reason is.

Itís not a religious issue for me, and has nothing to do with the First Amendment.  Your interpretation of the First Amendment is way off, though.  Nothing in it suggests that those in government canít be informed by their religious views. Whether thatís Pence, Omar or Schumer, nothing in the Constitution requires them to leave their religion at the door.
you'd wouldn't be the first person I talked to who said their opinion on that topic wasn't based on religion but after a lot of back and forth with those people, it always came back to their religious beliefs.  we're obviously not going to have that type of discussion.

First amendment doesn't require people to leave their beliefs at the door but while it does give people the right to practice the religion of their choice, it also prevents people from having someone else force their religion on them.  it's the single greatest right we have in this country because without that one, you can't have any of the rest.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

to the point, I'm still horrified that people find Trump in any way acceptable as POTUS.  it's not a Republican or Democrat issue.  It's a Trump issue.  I've stated it in other threads and I'll state it again.  2020 isn't about policies.  it's about getting rid of Trump.  2024 I'll worry about policy. 
We're already a mess as a country with under 3 years under Trump.  I can't imagine how much worse we'll be if it becomes 8.  if you're so anti-Dem in terms of policy, why would you even be worried about their policies getting through the Senate with Moscow Mitch blocking everything?   heck, with Mitch running the Senate, even if a Dem beats Trump, if RBG dropped dead the day after the inauguration Mitch would likely block every nominee until a Rep won the White House again.

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2019, 01:35:13 PM »

Offline gift

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

Quote
Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions.  Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

If you think it is the Democrats that have abandoned the poor, such that you are willing to vote for the Republicans (let alone Trump) ... I just don't know what to say.    GOP policies have done nothing to help the working poor and have indeed been all about fueling the growing class inequities in our country.

The methodical and relentless destruction of labor unions by the GOP is probably the most critical force pushing folks out of the middle class and into the 'working poor'.

Do you think itís right to compel union dues and then spend those dues on political causes that might not be supported by the majority of workers?

This one is easy:  If the worker is benefiting from the compensation negotiated by the collective bargaining agreement, yes.

That doesn't make any sense. For instance, if an organization collectively bargains to get you a higher wage, they also get to take contributions from you and donate to a candidate who supports a low bar for military intervention in foreign affairs? Why is that agreeable to you?

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2019, 01:56:03 PM »

Online Roy H.

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

Quote
Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions.  Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

For the record, I think Clinton is a scumbag.  I liked many of his political views and voted for him twice.  While I gave him benefit of the doubt regarding affairs (which I regret) in 1992 and 1996, when news of the Lewinsky affair surfaced in 1998, I was disgusted and have been a Clinton hater ever since.

Sometimes (Nixon, Clinton, Trump) people are too bad for me to accept that they can be the leader of my country even if they support things that I support.  Arguing that Dems voted for a scumbag is not really the best justification for voting for a scumbag.  Obviously, I didn't pick it up quickly enough to withhold my vote from Bill (incidentally, I liked neither Hillary nor Bernie in 2016 and voted for Kasich in the primary -- but yes, Hillary over Donald), but the volume of evidence occurring daily v. Trump to me is overwhelming.  I've been known amongst my friends to voice the wish that Mike Pence -- who from a political standpoint I absolutely abhor - were president.   I don't expect squeaky clean from politicians, but when they are bad (and I realize it), I don't vote for them.  I didn't vote for Ted Kennedy over the last 20 years of his career (embarrassed that I did at one point) but thought he was a terrific senator and worked hard for many things I favored -- but a man who did what he did should not have been elected senator.  I hope there are enough conservatives willing to go to the left in order to get Donald out of office and out of our lives.

Iím curious, do you have any ďdealbreakerĒ issues, where if a candidate didnít see things your way you couldnít vote for him or her?

Without inviting discussion of the issue, Iím pro-life, and I just canít bring myself to vote for somebody who isnít in line with my views. Thus, even if a Dem were fairly conservative on fiscal issues, I just canít support them.

I think a lot of Dems have deal breakers that keep them from supporting moderate Republicans, etc. 
so again you've snuck in your position on the forbidden topic.  to me, this is hypocritical in light of your proclamation of being someone in support of a SC that has a strict interpretation of the Constitution because people of a like opinion base it on personal religious beliefs and want to violate the first amendment by (A) forcing their religious beliefs on others and by (B) interfering with free speech of a doctor discussing all treatment options with their patients including the forbidden topic.

I know someone of your position.  she loves Trump for the sole fact he's stacking the SC in regards to the forbidden topic.  her pious, ultra-religious views seem to fall by the wayside regarding all Trump's other reprehensible behavior just on this sole idea. 

horrifying that someone so reprehensible continues to be supported regardless of what he does no matter what someone's reason is.

Itís not a religious issue for me, and has nothing to do with the First Amendment.  Your interpretation of the First Amendment is way off, though.  Nothing in it suggests that those in government canít be informed by their religious views. Whether thatís Pence, Omar or Schumer, nothing in the Constitution requires them to leave their religion at the door.
you'd wouldn't be the first person I talked to who said their opinion on that topic wasn't based on religion but after a lot of back and forth with those people, it always came back to their religious beliefs.  we're obviously not going to have that type of discussion.

First amendment doesn't require people to leave their beliefs at the door but while it does give people the right to practice the religion of their choice, it also prevents people from having someone else force their religion on them.  it's the single greatest right we have in this country because without that one, you can't have any of the rest.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

to the point, I'm still horrified that people find Trump in any way acceptable as POTUS.  it's not a Republican or Democrat issue.  It's a Trump issue.  I've stated it in other threads and I'll state it again.  2020 isn't about policies.  it's about getting rid of Trump.  2024 I'll worry about policy. 
We're already a mess as a country with under 3 years under Trump.  I can't imagine how much worse we'll be if it becomes 8.  if you're so anti-Dem in terms of policy, why would you even be worried about their policies getting through the Senate with Moscow Mitch blocking everything?   heck, with Mitch running the Senate, even if a Dem beats Trump, if RBG dropped dead the day after the inauguration Mitch would likely block every nominee until a Rep won the White House again.

I think you need to broaden your understanding if you canít envision policy in that particular area that doesnít involve religion. 

If we all concede that even a one-term President can have a tremendous impact on America, I donít think itís fair to ask voters to live with policies they disagree with for four years just to get a more decent person into the White House. 

You obviously feel differently, and thatís fine. But, I think itís unreasonable to expect people to vote contrary to the policies they care most about.
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Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2019, 02:51:28 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

Quote
Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions.  Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

If you think it is the Democrats that have abandoned the poor, such that you are willing to vote for the Republicans (let alone Trump) ... I just don't know what to say.    GOP policies have done nothing to help the working poor and have indeed been all about fueling the growing class inequities in our country.

The methodical and relentless destruction of labor unions by the GOP is probably the most critical force pushing folks out of the middle class and into the 'working poor'.

Do you think itís right to compel union dues and then spend those dues on political causes that might not be supported by the majority of workers?

This one is easy:  If the worker is benefiting from the compensation negotiated by the collective bargaining agreement, yes.

That doesn't make any sense. For instance, if an organization collectively bargains to get you a higher wage, they also get to take contributions from you and donate to a candidate who supports a low bar for military intervention in foreign affairs? Why is that agreeable to you?

If it is not acceptable to the members of the union they can vote for new leadership.

The leadership is chartered with supporting policies that benefit the union.   And that means supporting candidates who advocate for those policies.   The reality of politics is that while voters can be single-issue, politicians are always a mix of policies.  So unfortunately along with a union-favorable policy, a candidate may also support some other policy that an individual member doesn't like.  Too bad.  The union has to support candidates based on policies relevant to the union, not an individual member.

A union is no different than a corporation in this regard.  The corporations leadership is ultimately chartered with advocating for policies that benefit the corporation and shareholders as a whole.  An individual shareholder may not agree with the way the corporation donates money, but if they want the benefits of holding those shares then they either accept it or advocate for change in leadership or sell their shares.
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Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2019, 03:03:11 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Trump has undermined our democracy, he has further empowered corrupt oligarchs, and he continues to turn a blind eye to the destruction of the environment.

We are headed towards disaster, he needs to go.

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2019, 03:54:30 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Trump has undermined our democracy, he has further empowered corrupt oligarchs, and he continues to turn a blind eye to the destruction of the environment.

We are headed towards disaster, he needs to go.

When he goes, it won't be because republican voters turn on him. As seen in the thread, getting Trump and all that he brings is not a deal all the Trump voters like but it is a deal all the Trump voters knowingly make, and will likely make again.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2019, 03:56:14 PM »

Offline heyvik

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Trump has undermined our democracy, he has further empowered corrupt oligarchs, and he continues to turn a blind eye to the destruction of the environment.

We are headed towards disaster, he needs to go.

When he goes, it won't be because republican voters turn on him. As seen in the thread, getting Trump and all that he brings is not a deal all the Trump voters like but it is a deal all the Trump voters knowingly make, and will likely make again.

This is a very very sad reality.

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2019, 04:59:42 PM »

Offline gift

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

Quote
Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions.  Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

If you think it is the Democrats that have abandoned the poor, such that you are willing to vote for the Republicans (let alone Trump) ... I just don't know what to say.    GOP policies have done nothing to help the working poor and have indeed been all about fueling the growing class inequities in our country.

The methodical and relentless destruction of labor unions by the GOP is probably the most critical force pushing folks out of the middle class and into the 'working poor'.

Do you think itís right to compel union dues and then spend those dues on political causes that might not be supported by the majority of workers?

This one is easy:  If the worker is benefiting from the compensation negotiated by the collective bargaining agreement, yes.

That doesn't make any sense. For instance, if an organization collectively bargains to get you a higher wage, they also get to take contributions from you and donate to a candidate who supports a low bar for military intervention in foreign affairs? Why is that agreeable to you?

If it is not acceptable to the members of the union they can vote for new leadership.

The leadership is chartered with supporting policies that benefit the union.   And that means supporting candidates who advocate for those policies.   The reality of politics is that while voters can be single-issue, politicians are always a mix of policies.  So unfortunately along with a union-favorable policy, a candidate may also support some other policy that an individual member doesn't like.  Too bad.  The union has to support candidates based on policies relevant to the union, not an individual member.

A union is no different than a corporation in this regard.  The corporations leadership is ultimately chartered with advocating for policies that benefit the corporation and shareholders as a whole.  An individual shareholder may not agree with the way the corporation donates money, but if they want the benefits of holding those shares then they either accept it or advocate for change in leadership or sell their shares.

Ok. Well, that's very different than your original statement.

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2019, 05:09:25 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

  • Dennis Johnson
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Quote
Trump has undermined our democracy, he has further empowered corrupt oligarchs, and he continues to turn a blind eye to the destruction of the environment.

And the democratic party is hurling to Communism and Socialist views.  You don't think that will ruin the country to some degree?   I don't think all Socialist Programs are bad.   Social Security has worked ok.   Medicare works to some degree.   But those Nordic Paradises banks are not looking so hot ( negative) today and the whole system may come crashing down.    They also tried we will take your refugees and had a ton of problems from that folks.   Most social engineering fails, take harm reduction in the drug field, things are worse than ever in terms of addiction and overdose deaths today.  Some of it is the fentanyl , some of it is a colossal failure to understand human nature.  If people do not have to work to get stuff a lot of them won't.  I do think we should improve our health care system, it is just that the record of Congress in general to fix such things does not feel me with confidence and in case you did not know, it is Congress that writes our laws not presidential candidates.

Now you have the left wanting to change our system of government like the electoral college and not enforce long standing immigration laws.  They have done this before with stuff like the 60 majority nuclear option and guess what it backfired on them.

But I think if Pres. Trump wins it will be because of idiotic platforms like free health care to immigrants when people here don't  have it will re-elect him.     There is more to America than the liberal coasts.

What people do not realize that although the fringes of the party are the loudest they also do the most harm to the party in terms of winning elections.  They might win one election on a wave but they rarely hold power.

Quote
If it is not acceptable to the members of the union they can vote for new leadership.

The leadership is chartered with supporting policies that benefit the union.   And that means supporting candidates who advocate for those policies.   The reality of politics is that while voters can be single-issue, politicians are always a mix of policies.  So unfortunately along with a union-favorable policy, a candidate may also support some other policy that an individual member doesn't like.  Too bad.  The union has to support candidates based on policies relevant to the union, not an individual member.

And sometimes bad union policies drive the companies out of business and cost jobs.   Thought I think for the most part they do some good.

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2019, 05:19:57 PM »

Online SHAQATTACK

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Quote
Trump has undermined our democracy, he has further empowered corrupt oligarchs, and he continues to turn a blind eye to the destruction of the environment.

And the democratic party is hurling to Communism and Socialist views.  You don't think that will ruin the country to some degree?   I don't think all Socialist Programs are bad.   Social Security has worked ok.   Medicare works to some degree.   But those Nordic Paradises banks are not looking so hot ( negative) today and the whole system may come crashing down.    They also tried we will take your refugees and had a ton of problems from that folks.   Most social engineering fails, take harm reduction in the drug field, things are worse than ever in terms of addiction and overdose deaths today.  Some of it is the fentanyl , some of it is a colossal failure to understand human nature.  If people do not have to work to get stuff a lot of them won't.  I do think we should improve our health care system, it is just that the record of Congress in general to fix such things does not feel me with confidence and in case you did not know, it is Congress that writes our laws not presidential candidates.

Now you have the left wanting to change our system of government like the electoral college and not enforce long standing immigration laws.  They have done this before with stuff like the 60 majority nuclear option and guess what it backfired on them.

But I think if Pres. Trump wins it will be because of idiotic platforms like free health care to immigrants when people here don't  have it will re-elect him.     There is more to America than the liberal coasts.

What people do not realize that although the fringes of the party are the loudest they also do the most harm to the party in terms of winning elections.  They might win one election on a wave but they rarely hold power.

Quote
If it is not acceptable to the members of the union they can vote for new leadership.

The leadership is chartered with supporting policies that benefit the union.   And that means supporting candidates who advocate for those policies.   The reality of politics is that while voters can be single-issue, politicians are always a mix of policies.  So unfortunately along with a union-favorable policy, a candidate may also support some other policy that an individual member doesn't like.  Too bad.  The union has to support candidates based on policies relevant to the union, not an individual member.

And sometimes bad union policies drive the companies out of business and cost jobs.   Thought I think for the most part they do some good.

thank you for this post. TP  :)

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2019, 07:42:07 PM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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One of Trump's smartest moves has been to purposefully surround himself with idiots much like himself, so that on the chance even they realize there is something wrong with him, it's not much of an indictment because no one respected them anyway.

In general, he has shielded himself from much of the potential criticism that a politician, or any conscious primate, is susceptible to. I've rarely come across anyone, except the most deluded, who do not have pathetically low standards relative to previous elects regarding his character, professional conduct, intelligence, day-to-day cognizance, or competence at anything beyond tweeting. This desensitization to aptitude, decorum, and decency has led me to believe he has hardly proved unelectable among some centrists, forget about his voting base who will oddly start critically analyzing the qualifications and policy of any opposing party while also at best, express only mild, helpless disappointment at their current choice before likely proceeding to talk themselves into him again.

Re: Scaramucci Breaks from Trump: First Domino?
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2019, 09:40:53 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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..or him outwardly saying he "Hates (racial slurs)" for Republicans to turn on Trump, at this point. It's sad, but I think a disgusting immoral, racist minority of the great Republican Party is running it right now and the good people of that party don't have the gumption to take it back.

Yeah I don't think there is a single chance that if Trump did that the 'voting for Trump cuz Liberals made us by nominating Hillary' voters or the 'We just want the Supreme Court seats, we don't approve of Trump at all besides voting for him and doing nothing else to oppose him' voters would give a fat crap about Trump getting caught on video saying he hates minorities or using racial slurs. People already assume that about him.

Donald Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory accusing a former president of murder. People who continue to vote for Trump do not care about social norms anymore. What they want to get out of Trump is varying but what is uniting is that they're willing to look past his faults to do it, and they can't be shamed into changing their minds.

I'm starting to look at Trumpism as kind of a fever that has to run its course. Hopefully it's only 4 years, but if we don't take the whole cycle of antibiotics it could come back.
I disagree. I think there are quite a lot of people who are Republican that can go along with dog whistle racial comments but would draw a line on video and audio proof of Trump saying he hates two groups of people using the worst racial epitets. At that point, powerful guys like Senators Kennedy and McConnell or Congressman McCarthy would have to draw the line in order to get re-elected. And with the power in the Senate and House denouncing him, the turn would happen.

Here's an actual sitting President of the United States of America, 10 days after a pair of shootings that rocked the nation and prodded said sitting President to finally put in place some more stringent background checks, mocking a TV news personality saying the man was so 'crazy' he should be red flagged, using the actual reforms he wants enacted due to the 30 people left dead in said shooting.

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Would Chris Cuomo be given a Red Flag for his recent rant? Filthy language and a total loss of control. He shouldnít be allowed to have any weapon. Heís nuts!

If you think there is a significant block of voters who can tolerate that, tolerate the other stuff Trump says on a weekly sometimes daily sometimes hourly basis, but Trump using a vulgar racial slur is a bridge too far, I cannot disagree hard enough. Those people do not exist en masse.
agreed. 

there are those here who proclaimed they voted for him as the lesser evil between him and Hillary who are still planning to vote for him in 2020 no matter who the Dems eventually put up.  there is no bar too low for many Trump voters.

I'll be voting for him again because, despite being a disgusting human being, I overall like what he has done for the economy, immigration, tax cuts and judicial nominations.  I think he's been much better in those areas than I suspect a Democrat would be.  I haven't minded his foreign policy, and he hasn't moved the country sharply rightward on certain social issues.

I give him low marks for fiscal responsibility, and personal dignity / morality.  He doesn't inspire, and he doesn't lead.  But, I'm not inspired by any of the Dems, either.  So, I'll be voting for him, and I won't be ashamed of it.  I just wish there was a better conservative candidate who was in line with both my positions and my values.

Before it is even remotely clear who the dem nominee is you declare yourself voting for someone whose values you readily admonish.  Candidates like Ryan, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Bullock, Harris and Biden are too far to the left for you to even consider?   Yours is probably the most frightening post I've seen in a long time.  A person who has expressed deep concern and dislike for Trump is going to vote for him regardless of the dem nominee.   

That sort of puts a knife into my hope that the country will acknowledge that a human being so brazen in his diviciveness, so plainly narcissistic, so readily willing to lie at every turn, so easily swayed to give credibility to unfounded conspiracies, so prone to bullying, so willing to deny science, so willing to ignore his own intelligence agencies warnings about Russia, so unclear and impulsive in his decision-making, so thin-skinned and reactive to any hint of disloyalty or criticism -- this is the man that a smart and decent mainstream conservative can't find a single dem in a field of 24 who is suitable to consider voting for against this abomination.  I appreciate the honesty -- but it leaves me pretty deflated.

Iím a conservative. I support most conservative positions.  Trump has moved many of my policy goals forward, and the economy is booming.

Harris and Biden are quite left, and have almost no alignment with my policy positions.

Trump is the most extreme President weíve had, but do you remember the Clinton years? How many were willing to vote for him despite being a liar and a bad human being? He was a womanizer and a man who committed perjury as President, but he was embraced.

I canít embrace Trump, but I do know that his policies are largely aligned with my preferences.  I absolutely hate his rhetoric, but honestly I equally hate the rhetoric of the left. I feel that Democrats as a whole have abandoned both the religious and the working poor, two groups that I have tremendous sympathy for (despite no longer belonging to either group).  Trump is divisive, but he only has traction because of the divisiveness and identity politics that came before him.. 

The only Democrat that Iím aware of that I would support at the national level is Joe Manchin. If he ran, Iíd support him over Trump.  Trump was my last choice in the 2016 primaries, and Iíd take just about any Republican over him, from Kasich to Cruz (with Haley my favorite ó policy, morality, strength, guts.)

If you think it is the Democrats that have abandoned the poor, such that you are willing to vote for the Republicans (let alone Trump) ... I just don't know what to say.    GOP policies have done nothing to help the working poor and have indeed been all about fueling the growing class inequities in our country.

The methodical and relentless destruction of labor unions by the GOP is probably the most critical force pushing folks out of the middle class and into the 'working poor'.

Do you think itís right to compel union dues and then spend those dues on political causes that might not be supported by the majority of workers?

This one is easy:  If the worker is benefiting from the compensation negotiated by the collective bargaining agreement, yes.

That doesn't make any sense. For instance, if an organization collectively bargains to get you a higher wage, they also get to take contributions from you and donate to a candidate who supports a low bar for military intervention in foreign affairs? Why is that agreeable to you?

If it is not acceptable to the members of the union they can vote for new leadership.

The leadership is chartered with supporting policies that benefit the union.   And that means supporting candidates who advocate for those policies.   The reality of politics is that while voters can be single-issue, politicians are always a mix of policies.  So unfortunately along with a union-favorable policy, a candidate may also support some other policy that an individual member doesn't like.  Too bad.  The union has to support candidates based on policies relevant to the union, not an individual member.

A union is no different than a corporation in this regard.  The corporations leadership is ultimately chartered with advocating for policies that benefit the corporation and shareholders as a whole.  An individual shareholder may not agree with the way the corporation donates money, but if they want the benefits of holding those shares then they either accept it or advocate for change in leadership or sell their shares.

Ok. Well, that's very different than your original statement.

Both answers are consistent with each other.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.