Author Topic: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight  (Read 5782 times)

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Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2019, 08:13:08 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Odd: Liberals hate the Electoral College because it allows candidates to win despite not having the most votes, but support ranked choice (at least in blue states) because it allows a candidate to win despite not having the most votes.

Nope, keevsnick did a nice job explaining, but 'liberals' want to see the candidate who has the most support actually win. It really doesn't seem fair that people in more rural states get more of a vote just because they reside in a place nobody else wants to live.

On your 2nd point, you know better. People clamor for more than a two-party system, but in terms of pure counting votes, it makes no sense; you end up getting Ross Perot and Ralph Nader swinging elections. If we aren't going to go towards the Ranked Choice model, then people probably should be forced to choose between one candidate or the other. At least that way we would have clean, undisputed results.

Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2019, 08:34:46 AM »

Online Roy H.

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If we aren't going to go towards the Ranked Choice model, then people probably should be forced to choose between one candidate or the other. At least that way we would have clean, undisputed results.

People should be allowed to vote for who they like the best. No second choices, no forced choices. Just vote, and whoever has the most votes wins.

Regarding the EC, it preserves a balance. However, I do strongly feel that other states should adopt the Maine / Nebraska model of splitting electoral votes by district, rather than winner take all.
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Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2019, 08:34:58 AM »

Offline TDurden

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Getting rid of the electoral college means the dissolution of the United States.  The states with a smaller rural population will in no way be willing to accept a reduction in their voice and be ruled over by the large coastal populous.  If you think our electoral college is bad go take a look at the European Union in which the less populous countries receive as much as 12 times the representation as others.  Those countries would not have agreed to the union if not for the added representation.

Classic entitlement syndrome. Imagine throwing a hissy-fit because your vote was only going to count as much as everyone else in America...  Must be tough.

 






Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2019, 08:39:43 AM »

Online Celtics4ever

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Classic entitlement syndrome. Imagine throwing a hissy-fit because your vote was only going to count as much as everyone else in America...  Must be tough.

Is it any worse, than trying to change the rules because you lost the election? 

Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2019, 08:55:24 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Odd: Liberals hate the Electoral College because it allows candidates to win despite not having the most votes, but support ranked choice (at least in blue states) because it allows a candidate to win despite not having the most votes.

You keep saying this re ranked choice, but it’s not true.
Repeating it won’t make it so.

Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2019, 08:57:50 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Classic entitlement syndrome. Imagine throwing a hissy-fit because your vote was only going to count as much as everyone else in America...  Must be tough.

Is it any worse, than trying to change the rules because you lost the election?
The majority of the people of the state of Maine (not the Democratic Party) voted to change the rules, twice.

Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2019, 09:23:28 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Classic entitlement syndrome. Imagine throwing a hissy-fit because your vote was only going to count as much as everyone else in America...  Must be tough.

Is it any worse, than trying to change the rules because you lost the election?
The majority of the people of the state of Maine (not the Democratic Party) voted to change the rules, twice.

He’s talking about the EC, although it applies in Maine, too. The losers (in each case, Democrats) are changing the rules because they lost, and wanted to make sure it was easier for their party to win. 
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Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2019, 09:33:31 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Classic entitlement syndrome. Imagine throwing a hissy-fit because your vote was only going to count as much as everyone else in America...  Must be tough.

Is it any worse, than trying to change the rules because you lost the election?
The majority of the people of the state of Maine (not the Democratic Party) voted to change the rules, twice.

He’s talking about the EC, although it applies in Maine, too. The losers (in each case, Democrats) are changing the rules because they lost, and wanted to make sure it was easier for their party to win. 
so then, for us independents that want a 1-person, 1-vote election -- what reasoning are you going to project on us?  I've lived in states that were heavily loaded locally with Dems and have voted on initiatives to change that to make voting fair for every candidate.  Same thought process holds for national elections.  I don't care about party affiliations on this issue. 

As usual here, Reps labeling anyone who disagrees with them as a Dem without actually addressing the issue since it favors them.

Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2019, 09:56:01 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Classic entitlement syndrome. Imagine throwing a hissy-fit because your vote was only going to count as much as everyone else in America...  Must be tough.

Is it any worse, than trying to change the rules because you lost the election?
The majority of the people of the state of Maine (not the Democratic Party) voted to change the rules, twice.

He’s talking about the EC, although it applies in Maine, too. The losers (in each case, Democrats) are changing the rules because they lost, and wanted to make sure it was easier for their party to win. 
so then, for us independents that want a 1-person, 1-vote election -- what reasoning are you going to project on us?  I've lived in states that were heavily loaded locally with Dems and have voted on initiatives to change that to make voting fair for every candidate.  Same thought process holds for national elections.  I don't care about party affiliations on this issue. 

As usual here, Reps labeling anyone who disagrees with them as a Dem without actually addressing the issue since it favors them.

slam, you are one of the most liberal, pro-Democrat posters on this board.  I've never seen you show interest in a single conservative position.  Even though you may be unaffiliated, you seem to be pretty clearly aligned with one party's positions.  You also tend to take strong positions while being generally uninformed about them, which seems like the opposite of most independents.  Even here, you're criticizing Republicans.

In what possible way are you an independent?
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Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2019, 10:01:00 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Odd: Liberals hate the Electoral College because it allows candidates to win despite not having the most votes, but support ranked choice (at least in blue states) because it allows a candidate to win despite not having the most votes.

You keep saying this re ranked choice, but it’s not true.
Repeating it won’t make it so.

Bruce Poliquin votes:  131,631
Jared Golden votes:  128,999

131,631 > 128,999

It's pretty easy math, as is "one person, one vote".
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Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2019, 11:11:00 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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Odd: Liberals hate the Electoral College because it allows candidates to win despite not having the most votes, but support ranked choice (at least in blue states) because it allows a candidate to win despite not having the most votes.

You keep saying this re ranked choice, but it’s not true.
Repeating it won’t make it so.

Bruce Poliquin votes:  131,631
Jared Golden votes:  128,999

131,631 > 128,999

It's pretty easy math, as is "one person, one vote".

Roy this is pretty simple, more people in Maine wanted a Liberal leaning candidate as their representative. The primary liberal leaning candidate only lost because their were multiple liberal leaning candidates that split the vote. In the end RCV allowed for independent candidates to receive more votes then they likely would have because those who voted for them didn't have to worry about splitting the vote. In the end the candidate people would rather see represent them won.

Its also worth noting that this choice was made under the RCV system, its entirely possible had that system not been in place enough votes would have been dragged away from the independent candidates to the democrat (out of fear of vote splitting) that he would have achieved victory flat out. The margin after the "first ballot" was just over two thousand votes, 23 thousand cast votes for independents. In other words, the system itself may have been the only reason republicans even had the appearance of winning.

Yu want to blame somebody blame the Maine republican party whose outgoing governor had a 40% approval rating against a 53% disapproval rating, one of the worst marks in the nation.

Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #86 on: August 10, 2019, 11:18:14 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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Odd: Liberals hate the Electoral College because it allows candidates to win despite not having the most votes, but support ranked choice (at least in blue states) because it allows a candidate to win despite not having the most votes.

Nope. Again just wrong. Democrats hate the electoral college because the person who most people would prefer to be president doesn't actually win. Democrats like RCV because it ensures the person whom most would rather win actually wins. Again, it removes the problem of vote splitting and ensure the party people wnat representing them represents them. In a straight run off between the two candidates in Maine the democrat would have win, so where exactly is the justice in the republican winning just because there were fewer conservatives in the field?

Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2019, 12:18:57 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Odd: Liberals hate the Electoral College because it allows candidates to win despite not having the most votes, but support ranked choice (at least in blue states) because it allows a candidate to win despite not having the most votes.

You keep saying this re ranked choice, but it’s not true.
Repeating it won’t make it so.

Bruce Poliquin votes:  131,631
Jared Golden votes:  128,999

131,631 > 128,999

It's pretty easy math, as is "one person, one vote".
Oh...my...god
obstinate refusal to accept facts.


Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #88 on: August 10, 2019, 12:21:08 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Getting rid of the electoral college means the dissolution of the United States.  The states with a smaller rural population will in no way be willing to accept a reduction in their voice and be ruled over by the large coastal populous.  If you think our electoral college is bad go take a look at the European Union in which the less populous countries receive as much as 12 times the representation as others.  Those countries would not have agreed to the union if not for the added representation.

Classic entitlement syndrome. Imagine throwing a hissy-fit because your vote was only going to count as much as everyone else in America...  Must be tough.

 

Nice, And you get your first TP.

Re: we do not run a democracy, lets get that straight
« Reply #89 on: August 10, 2019, 01:05:17 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Classic entitlement syndrome. Imagine throwing a hissy-fit because your vote was only going to count as much as everyone else in America...  Must be tough.

Is it any worse, than trying to change the rules because you lost the election?

TP. Pretty much what I was thinking.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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