Author Topic: Is free public college something that should happen?  (Read 1776 times)

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Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2019, 07:31:58 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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I think free community college tuition, or the equal cost equivalent should be provided..........to any honorably discharged VETERAN!  You want free college, serve your country first!  Have absolutely no problem with that!
Veterans deserve so much more than that. A free 4 year degree or equivalent in trade training is where I would begin for vets and here is the kicker, I wouldn't limit it to tuition at public schools. If they can get into the best colleges, pay for the tuition there too.

Let's say a kid(let's make him male) is brilliant but decides he wants to be a US foot soldier in war torn areas. He is a patriot and wants to serve first before going to college. He joins the army, serves six years in Afghanistan seeing lots of war and then decides he has done enough so upon returning home applies to Harvard and gets in?

Why should he be limited to only going to a state school or community college? Pay that guy's tuition to Harvard. He has earned that, especially if he never made more than $30K a year to be fighting a war in defense of this country. Good God, you couldn't pay most of us a million dollars to fight in a war for a week and a large many of our kids are out there doing it for a wage slightly over the poverty level.

If our kids can come back and get into the best schools in our country after fighting in wars, pay their way. The already paid it forward to us, we need to pay it back to them.
only???  >:( university of michigan and university of washington and UCLA and berkeley and others are quite good thank you very much.
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Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2019, 07:48:25 PM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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I think free community college tuition, or the equal cost equivalent should be provided..........to any honorably discharged VETERAN!  You want free college, serve your country first!  Have absolutely no problem with that!
Veterans deserve so much more than that. A free 4 year degree or equivalent in trade training is where I would begin for vets and here is the kicker, I wouldn't limit it to tuition at public schools. If they can get into the best colleges, pay for the tuition there too.

Let's say a kid(let's make him male) is brilliant but decides he wants to be a US foot soldier in war torn areas. He is a patriot and wants to serve first before going to college. He joins the army, serves six years in Afghanistan seeing lots of war and then decides he has done enough so upon returning home applies to Harvard and gets in?

Why should he be limited to only going to a state school or community college? Pay that guy's tuition to Harvard. He has earned that, especially if he never made more than $30K a year to be fighting a war in defense of this country. Good God, you couldn't pay most of us a million dollars to fight in a war for a week and a large many of our kids are out there doing it for a wage slightly over the poverty level.

If our kids can come back and get into the best schools in our country after fighting in wars, pay their way. The already paid it forward to us, we need to pay it back to them.

I’d prefer to not do this, but rather take the money we’d save *not* sending these kids to a pointless war and use that to pay for education programs.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2019, 08:31:25 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think free community college tuition, or the equal cost equivalent should be provided..........to any honorably discharged VETERAN!  You want free college, serve your country first!  Have absolutely no problem with that!
Veterans deserve so much more than that. A free 4 year degree or equivalent in trade training is where I would begin for vets and here is the kicker, I wouldn't limit it to tuition at public schools. If they can get into the best colleges, pay for the tuition there too.

Let's say a kid(let's make him male) is brilliant but decides he wants to be a US foot soldier in war torn areas. He is a patriot and wants to serve first before going to college. He joins the army, serves six years in Afghanistan seeing lots of war and then decides he has done enough so upon returning home applies to Harvard and gets in?

Why should he be limited to only going to a state school or community college? Pay that guy's tuition to Harvard. He has earned that, especially if he never made more than $30K a year to be fighting a war in defense of this country. Good God, you couldn't pay most of us a million dollars to fight in a war for a week and a large many of our kids are out there doing it for a wage slightly over the poverty level.

If our kids can come back and get into the best schools in our country after fighting in wars, pay their way. The already paid it forward to us, we need to pay it back to them.
only???  >:( university of michigan and university of washington and UCLA and berkeley and others are quite good thank you very much.
There are a lot of quality public colleges but yes, only. If a veteran gets into MIT or Notre Dame or Harvard or Spelman or Yale or Stanford why should that person not get to go there, if they can get in? Why be limited to just public universities and colleges, no matter how good some are?

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2019, 08:35:18 PM »

Offline designmao

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Free college should happen. Those who want to go, should be able to without being burdened with massive debt after graduating. How is this not universally agreed on, like right to healthcare?

 

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2019, 08:38:04 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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University of Massachusetts Amherst 1977.
Junior - English major - living off campus

Fall semester:
William Faulkner
Creative writing
European History
Philosophy

Only took four courses, had a full time bartending job where I earned about $225/week, my apartment was $235 a month.

$275 for the 4 courses
$25 campus center fee
$300 "tuition" ($1100 inflation adjusted to today's dollars)
Had to pay cash for the books.

Obviously, I was a resident of Mass having grown up here.

The state paid for most of the school's cost. That had always been the deal from before when it started as a land grant school for agriculture. Aggies were important long ago because, as measured in 1900, --85% of the US population worked on farms.



Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2019, 09:08:35 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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They had better include reparations for the millions who worked like dogs to pay back college loans in the last 1 to 5 years.

The entire college bubble is the result of government placing their noses where it shouldn't go. Then not providing the national growth necessary to give these debt-ridden graduates the job opportunities to pay back these loans. Low growth equals fewer well-paying jobs.

It was the perfect scenario to enslave a generation of young people to the government. This is the next big bubble to crash.   


Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2019, 09:52:52 PM »

Online saltlover

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They had better include reparations for the millions who worked like dogs to pay back college loans in the last 1 to 5 years.

The entire college bubble is the result of government placing their noses where it shouldn't go. Then not providing the national growth necessary to give these debt-ridden graduates the job opportunities to pay back these loans. Low growth equals fewer well-paying jobs.

It was the perfect scenario to enslave a generation of young people to the government. This is the next big bubble to crash.   

I’m paying over a thousand a month in loans, have been for the last seven years, and have three more years to go.  Eliminating existing student debt would be a good part of creating free college, but there’s no need to pay back people who’ve paid off their loans.  Congratulations on being able to do so, myself included, hopefully.

That said, while it would be best if both occurred, it would be better to stop the problem from getting worse by making public college free, and then tackling the existing student debt problem if political will won’t let both happen at once.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2019, 10:00:10 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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They had better include reparations for the millions who worked like dogs to pay back college loans in the last 1 to 5 years.

The entire college bubble is the result of government placing their noses where it shouldn't go. Then not providing the national growth necessary to give these debt-ridden graduates the job opportunities to pay back these loans. Low growth equals fewer well-paying jobs.

It was the perfect scenario to enslave a generation of young people to the government. This is the next big bubble to crash.   

How did the government create this, exactly?

The people who have the worst debt problems are typically people who went to for-profit colleges that are barely regulated - that offer kids the moon and then teach them little and don't place them. I grant you that some of these kids could be making better choices - but I don't think that problem gets solved by leaving the field wide open for the most predatory people to see if they can scam them. There was a little regulation for a while, which of course the Trump admin - friend of con men everywhere - is doing away with.

For what it's worth, a million years ago when my brother and I were looking at college, UMass cost around $1,000 a year - because the big bad government used to help kids from working class backgrounds go to college and graduate without massive debt, and the same was true of many other states. That's eroded with the mindless attack on public goods and government. Other priorities, and in my view, wrong priorities.

Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2019, 12:33:01 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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"Would anyone who works a hard job feel good that they're paying higher taxes so some dude can go get a degree that will not make the student any money after they graduate? "

What I meant by this is just imagine you're working a very physical or mentally taxing job and you make decent money. You're paying a higher tax rate due to your income that you work very hard for. Now a chunk of thatmaney you earned is being used to pay some school to hand out a degree that won't help the student out in the real world. Think the reaction many have to those cheating the welfare system. I'd imagine it would generate some angst is all.

Again the most taxing jobs are not generally the ones that pay the most taxes; much more often they're the opposite. I don't personally support it but most proposed plans are offset entirely by taxes on the top few percent. But I think if you're working this hard to construct a hypothetical that justifies resenting people for going to college, up to comparing getting a degree you don't approve of (not a crime) with cheating the welfare system (a crime), resenting people for wanting to go to college was the whole point all along.

But just to try and find some point of agreement would you support free tuition for trade/vocational schools? I assume there aren't any politically incorrect degree programs in those.


Maybe it's been said already, but we already have a program that helps eliminate a large portion/all of college debt: The GI BIll.

We don't need to just hand out tuition for nothing.

The military doesn't take everyone, and shouldn't. Disabled people should be shut out? And not everyone is cut out for the military, and not everyone should be. All of which is without getting into the moral issues.

And no one's getting a hand out. They just don't get charged.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2019, 01:04:34 AM »

Offline byennie

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They had better include reparations for the millions who worked like dogs to pay back college loans in the last 1 to 5 years.

The entire college bubble is the result of government placing their noses where it shouldn't go. Then not providing the national growth necessary to give these debt-ridden graduates the job opportunities to pay back these loans. Low growth equals fewer well-paying jobs.

It was the perfect scenario to enslave a generation of young people to the government. This is the next big bubble to crash.   

How did the government create this, exactly?

The people who have the worst debt problems are typically people who went to for-profit colleges that are barely regulated - that offer kids the moon and then teach them little and don't place them. I grant you that some of these kids could be making better choices - but I don't think that problem gets solved by leaving the field wide open for the most predatory people to see if they can scam them. There was a little regulation for a while, which of course the Trump admin - friend of con men everywhere - is doing away with.

For what it's worth, a million years ago when my brother and I were looking at college, UMass cost around $1,000 a year - because the big bad government used to help kids from working class backgrounds go to college and graduate without massive debt, and the same was true of many other states. That's eroded with the mindless attack on public goods and government. Other priorities, and in my view, wrong priorities.

Government loans have played a huge role in rising tuition. Of course schools are going to raise prices when you pump a gazillion dollars into the system -- all the school has to do is pretend that a degree is worth that much. Doctor for life? Of course, $250k plus interest is a drop in the bucket! Don't get me wrong, the schools taking advantage is immoral, but it's not surprising.

For profit scams are awful and hurt some people a lot individually, but I'm under the impression they are still a small percentage of the overall debt load, which has been accruing steadily for the past 20+ years. Good old fashioned mediocre, overpriced public and private schools have generated billions and billions of debt.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2019, 06:31:06 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2019, 07:26:38 AM »

Offline greece666

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So, the mark of lack of decency and sanity is support for free public education?

As a non-American, I´m confused reading this thread.

Huh? Not sure I get your conclusion.

Some are agreeing with the concept of “free” college; some not. My take is evolving in part influenced by some of the posters here.   Providing increased affordability for qualified applicants to receive public college education (which is already subsidized) seems to be where there is some agreement.   

KG - I get the value of STEM but there is value in other fields of endeavor.  Yes the slayers of liberal arts can mock Art History and the like but within the broad reach of liberal arts education there are fields that have relevant societal value and are worth investing in. Education being one.

When I made this comment the title of the thread was different. It changed for a reason.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2019, 12:40:40 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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Maybe it's been said already, but we already have a program that helps eliminate a large portion/all of college debt: The GI BIll.

We don't need to just hand out tuition for nothing.


Isn't tuition more an investment in a skillset rather than a free hand out. It is essentially the cost of having a professor (s) train a each student in a particular university level skill.

It's a handout if the person getting the free tuition is getting it without doing anything other than breathing. My point though is there's a path for people to get the degree they want without putting themselves too far in the hole. If getting that schooling without much debt is so important, they can do so by sacrificing some time first.

4 year degrees are less valuable now that they were some years ago because more and more people are getting them. Free tuition will only dilute the numbers which will force people to get a masters to differentiate themselves(it's already happening and this is even without free tuition). Now on the surface this looks great having more degree holders out in the wild, but we'll end up being right back where are now with people having these advanced degrees while not making a whole lot in salary.

Go look at job listings and you'll see tons of jobs that are low level, but the employer wants the applicant to have degree.  Not all degrees even teach a skill set either. Many employers have to train their employees to do a job that they could do without the degree in the first place.

Plus, giving out free tuition may hurt more than it helps in another way. It will have people choosing college over a trade that could pay more than the job they would get with a bachelors.



Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2019, 12:54:22 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Maybe it's been said already, but we already have a program that helps eliminate a large portion/all of college debt: The GI BIll.

We don't need to just hand out tuition for nothing.


Isn't tuition more an investment in a skillset rather than a free hand out. It is essentially the cost of having a professor (s) train a each student in a particular university level skill.

It's a handout if the person getting the free tuition is getting it without doing anything other than breathing. My point though is there's a path for people to get the degree they want without putting themselves too far in the hole. If getting that schooling without much debt is so important, they can do so by sacrificing some time first.


It's not a hand out it's an investment. It's an investment into the quality of the American workforce. It's an investment into the overall education and ability to be free thinkers for all Americans in society. It's an investment in reducing debt for Americans freeing up expendable cash. It's an investment into the financial health of the American economy as that expendable cash gets put back into the economy. It's an investment into growing the American middle class.

:)
Plus, giving out free tuition may hurt more than it helps in another way. It will have people choosing college over a trade that could pay more than the job they would get with a bachelors.
Just about everyone that has mentioned free college has mentioned that the equivalent would be made available for trade training. This free college idea takes into account fairness for those that want a career in the trades by also providing that option to people. Your concern here shouldn't happen.

Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2019, 12:56:53 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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"Would anyone who works a hard job feel good that they're paying higher taxes so some dude can go get a degree that will not make the student any money after they graduate? "

What I meant by this is just imagine you're working a very physical or mentally taxing job and you make decent money. You're paying a higher tax rate due to your income that you work very hard for. Now a chunk of thatmaney you earned is being used to pay some school to hand out a degree that won't help the student out in the real world. Think the reaction many have to those cheating the welfare system. I'd imagine it would generate some angst is all.

Again the most taxing jobs are not generally the ones that pay the most taxes; much more often they're the opposite. I don't personally support it but most proposed plans are offset entirely by taxes on the top few percent. But I think if you're working this hard to construct a hypothetical that justifies resenting people for going to college, up to comparing getting a degree you don't approve of (not a crime) with cheating the welfare system (a crime), resenting people for wanting to go to college was the whole point all along.

But just to try and find some point of agreement would you support free tuition for trade/vocational schools? I assume there aren't any politically incorrect degree programs in those.


Maybe it's been said already, but we already have a program that helps eliminate a large portion/all of college debt: The GI BIll.

We don't need to just hand out tuition for nothing.

The military doesn't take everyone, and shouldn't. Disabled people should be shut out? And not everyone is cut out for the military, and not everyone should be. All of which is without getting into the moral issues.

And no one's getting a hand out. They just don't get charged.


Quote

hand out verb
handed out; handing out; hands out

Definition of hand out (Entry 2 of 2)

transitive verb
1a : to give without charge
b : to give freely

How you can say giving one a free ride to college isn't a handout, idk what is.


There is already is help for disabled people to go to school. True the military doesn't take everyone, but that doesn't mean you just pay for everyone either.

No one has yet to address my question of why are we not holding colleges accountable for the rising costs like we do with the healthcare industry. The media loves to portray insurance companies and big pharma as greedy sob's, yet colleges NEVER get called out for the prices they charge.

I also want to know what is going to be the incentive for colleges to keep their pricing down or live within a  budget  if they have an unlimited supply of playing customers coming through campus? Are the feds going to tell state schools they can only charge so much?

Also, what about the people who didn't do well enough to get accepted into college? What if they worked hard but just couldn't get in? If college is a human right, then it really cannot be contingent on a test score. Any and everyone should be let in. Of course if we do that then, what's the point of earning a degree.

Take the emotion out of this entire debate and it becomes clear it's just not a good idea.




 

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