Author Topic: Is free public college something that should happen?  (Read 1777 times)

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Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2019, 09:01:24 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Even if you love this idea, it should happen at the State level, not the Federal level, and it needs to happen gradually over a decade or more. Otherwise it will do more harm than good.

I don't know what the ideal program would be but administering it through the State University systems sounds reasonable enough to me.  I suspect that funding from the fed level makes more sense as not all states have the same ability to raise money for this.  A student in WV should have the same access and opportunity as a student in NY.

And this is not about lazy people thinking they are entitled to 4 free years of college.  Say MA determines that they need 500 engineering incoming freshman in order to support their regional employers.  There would be 500 scholarships up for grabs and they would go to the students that scored the highest on engineering exams.  Standardized tests are not always the best way to compare students but the point is that you win these scholarships, you are not simply given one just because you want one.

This is not a huge issue for me.  I think it is a good idea but health care, justice reform, the environment, government debt, immigration are all bigger issues to me.  It just really bugs me to see all the conservatives parroting the "free stuff" false narrative.  It seems to me that most don't even realize they are being manipulated by it but you hear variations on the same free stuff type concerns.

Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2019, 09:09:58 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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It's sad we live in a day where everyone feels they're entitled to free everything. No need to better yourself because all the basics are taken care of.

I do think it’s a disconnect (inherent in your post) that leaves our country divided and angry rather than communicating and resolving. 

It is patently untrue that everyone feels they’re entitled to free everything. You know that is hyperbole, but it’s such hyperbole that drives the divide. I agree that some American want to sit back and let everyone else provide for them. I’d guess that  isn’t a high percentage at all.  And further, I don’t think anyone here who is arguing in favor of some support to lower education costs (read closely and “free for everyone” isn’t what you’ll find in anyone’s suggestions) come across as entitled or seeking free everything.   They are responding to a societal issue (exorbitant education costs) with thoughts about how to address it fairly.  No need to consider that entitled.  You could possibly find some common ground if you wanted to.

angryguy77 wrote 6 paragraphs. 5 really solid, IMO, and 1 hyperbolic. I don't know if it reinforces your point or defeats it that that is the one part of the post you responded to. On the one hand, it is a valid point that the final comment describes very few people and certainly fewer of those actively engaging in the discussion. On the other hand, you only furthered the conversation on the one hyperbolic point and didn't on the substantive critique on the mechanics of the issue.

Yes, you highlighted exactly what I did. 

Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2019, 01:45:16 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Even if you love this idea, it should happen at the State level, not the Federal level, and it needs to happen gradually over a decade or more. Otherwise it will do more harm than good.

I don't know what the ideal program would be but administering it through the State University systems sounds reasonable enough to me.  I suspect that funding from the fed level makes more sense as not all states have the same ability to raise money for this.  A student in WV should have the same access and opportunity as a student in NY.

And this is not about lazy people thinking they are entitled to 4 free years of college.  Say MA determines that they need 500 engineering incoming freshman in order to support their regional employers.  There would be 500 scholarships up for grabs and they would go to the students that scored the highest on engineering exams.  Standardized tests are not always the best way to compare students but the point is that you win these scholarships, you are not simply given one just because you want one.

This is not a huge issue for me.  I think it is a good idea but health care, justice reform, the environment, government debt, immigration are all bigger issues to me.  It just really bugs me to see all the conservatives parroting the "free stuff" false narrative.  It seems to me that most don't even realize they are being manipulated by it but you hear variations on the same free stuff type concerns.

Yes. California already has a free tuition system for residents attending their state university system.   It's been around for ages and it hasn't led to the downfall of civilization.   Quite the opposite, in fact.

There is no reason why that sort of system couldn't by replicated across all 50 state university programs, using federal funding to help and to make it not dependent on state residence.

And yes, ultimately, you would still have to qualify for admission.

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Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2019, 02:32:53 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Putting in an income threshold would hurt those that can't pay for college themselves but also look like they make too much on paper to get help.

Agreed, and it also means the people who pay the most taxes toward this are locked out from it. I don't support this. It should be a public benefit, just like public K-12 schooling is now.


Here's what you do if you want to see the cost of college come down: Limit the number of loans given and the amount of those loans. Make the customers(students) treat the schools like they would with any other purchase and put some thought into it. The schools will then have to.....gasp...compete with each other and prices will come down.

Providing a free public alternative will do exactly that.

Schools are competing with each other right now, that's a huge part of why costs are skyrocketing. You have to have something to sell as uniquely or especially valuable about what you're providing compared to the competition, and fact is prospective students are much more responsive to tangible facilities and programs than, say a 10% lower tuition. It also lets administrators justify their positions by pointing to all the exciting new initiatives they're developing (while often tossing aside the last person's exciting new initiatives) and bigger fundraising numbers as well.


Would anyone who works a hard job feel good that they're paying higher taxes so some dude can go get a degree that will not make the student any money after they graduate?

The hardest jobs are usually the least likely to require a college education and the ones that pay the least, and presumably the ones that affordable college would most enable people to escape. So I'm not sure what this is about.


It's sad we live in a day where everyone feels they're entitled to free everything. No need to better yourself because all the basics are taken care of.

I think it gives away the game a bit to characterize wanting to spend years attaining an advanced education as having "no need to better yourself".

Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2019, 02:41:16 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Split this off of the Friedman Article: Sane Dem Candidates thread. It took over the thread and seems to be a great topic to discuss in its own right.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2019, 03:24:49 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Yeah, I'd love for my SL debt to be forgiven, but if the choice is "nothing happens" and "nothing happens for you but your kids get free public college" I'm gonna be okay with that too. As it sits right now I wouldn't push my kids towards college unless they knew exactly what they wanted to do, and had the majority paid for through grants and scholarships.

I have to say I admire your and Nicks’ approach. My parents paid for my undergrad (not post-grad) and I so had an irrational need to blindly do the same for my kids.  They both did great - one has almost completed her doctorate in molecular bio — doing cancer research with grad program free.  Other completed 2 years Americorp (which will take $11K off the loans I have for her). Both kids will probably assume their loans  (about 30k each) eventually, but not yet. I would probably do differently if I understood the full implications of where we’d be right now with regard to retirement (but as I said previously, I am an idiot). On the plus side I’m glad for my kids and I expect they’ll help up us down the road if needed.

Yeah I hope you don't think anything I'm saying here is a judgement on people who had a different approach. I had to do college all on my own. I managed to get out with only $50k in debt, but how much more would an extra $500 a month help out my household's financial security? (answer: a lot)

I wish my parents had decided they were going to pay for my college, but nobody paid for theirs, and they decided that was the right way to go. I screwed around for way too long and if they had been paying for my college, I bet they would've disowned me.

You raised people who work in important fields and give back to strangers as a choice. You should be proud. My parents raised me. I hope they're proud, but my butt isn't out there curing brain cancer or giving back entire years in my 20's to help strangers so...

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Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2019, 03:25:29 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Split this off of the Friedman Article: Sane Dem Candidates thread. It took over the thread and seems to be a great topic to discuss in its own right.

good idea

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2019, 03:26:48 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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Putting in an income threshold would hurt those that can't pay for college themselves but also look like they make too much on paper to get help.

Agreed, and it also means the people who pay the most taxes toward this are locked out from it. I don't support this. It should be a public benefit, just like public K-12 schooling is now.


Here's what you do if you want to see the cost of college come down: Limit the number of loans given and the amount of those loans. Make the customers(students) treat the schools like they would with any other purchase and put some thought into it. The schools will then have to.....gasp...compete with each other and prices will come down.

Providing a free public alternative will do exactly that.

Schools are competing with each other right now, that's a huge part of why costs are skyrocketing. You have to have something to sell as uniquely or especially valuable about what you're providing compared to the competition, and fact is prospective students are much more responsive to tangible facilities and programs than, say a 10% lower tuition. It also lets administrators justify their positions by pointing to all the exciting new initiatives they're developing (while often tossing aside the last person's exciting new initiatives) and bigger fundraising numbers as well.


Would anyone who works a hard job feel good that they're paying higher taxes so some dude can go get a degree that will not make the student any money after they graduate?

The hardest jobs are usually the least likely to require a college education and the ones that pay the least, and presumably the ones that affordable college would most enable people to escape. So I'm not sure what this is about.


It's sad we live in a day where everyone feels they're entitled to free everything. No need to better yourself because all the basics are taken care of.

I think it gives away the game a bit to characterize wanting to spend years attaining an advanced education as having "no need to better yourself".

"Would anyone who works a hard job feel good that they're paying higher taxes so some dude can go get a degree that will not make the student any money after they graduate? "

What I meant by this is just imagine you're working a very physical or mentally taxing job and you make decent money. You're paying a higher tax rate due to your income that you work very hard for. Now a chunk of thatmaney you earned is being used to pay some school to hand out a degree that won't help the student out in the real world. Think the reaction many have to those cheating the welfare system. I'd imagine it would generate some angst is all.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2019, 03:33:03 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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Maybe it's been said already, but we already have a program that helps eliminate a large portion/all of college debt: The GI BIll.

We don't need to just hand out tuition for nothing.





Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2019, 03:43:38 PM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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Maybe it's been said already, but we already have a program that helps eliminate a large portion/all of college debt: The GI BIll.

We don't need to just hand out tuition for nothing.


Isn't tuition more an investment in a skillset rather than a free hand out. It is essentially the cost of having a professor (s) train a each student in a particular university level skill.
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Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2019, 03:48:52 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Maybe it's been said already, but we already have a program that helps eliminate a large portion/all of college debt: The GI BIll.

We don't need to just hand out tuition for nothing.

I thought about this when the idea was first being discussed a couple of days ago. One of the big draws of joining the military is the ability to [eventually] get a free college education. I realize the other benefits are fantastic and the pay is better than ever, but those benefits and pay might need to increase dramatically if you remove it as being something special the military can offer.

Re: Is free public college something that should come about?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2019, 03:57:00 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Putting in an income threshold would hurt those that can't pay for college themselves but also look like they make too much on paper to get help.

Agreed, and it also means the people who pay the most taxes toward this are locked out from it. I don't support this. It should be a public benefit, just like public K-12 schooling is now.


Here's what you do if you want to see the cost of college come down: Limit the number of loans given and the amount of those loans. Make the customers(students) treat the schools like they would with any other purchase and put some thought into it. The schools will then have to.....gasp...compete with each other and prices will come down.

Providing a free public alternative will do exactly that.

Schools are competing with each other right now, that's a huge part of why costs are skyrocketing. You have to have something to sell as uniquely or especially valuable about what you're providing compared to the competition, and fact is prospective students are much more responsive to tangible facilities and programs than, say a 10% lower tuition. It also lets administrators justify their positions by pointing to all the exciting new initiatives they're developing (while often tossing aside the last person's exciting new initiatives) and bigger fundraising numbers as well.


Would anyone who works a hard job feel good that they're paying higher taxes so some dude can go get a degree that will not make the student any money after they graduate?

The hardest jobs are usually the least likely to require a college education and the ones that pay the least, and presumably the ones that affordable college would most enable people to escape. So I'm not sure what this is about.


It's sad we live in a day where everyone feels they're entitled to free everything. No need to better yourself because all the basics are taken care of.

I think it gives away the game a bit to characterize wanting to spend years attaining an advanced education as having "no need to better yourself".

"Would anyone who works a hard job feel good that they're paying higher taxes so some dude can go get a degree that will not make the student any money after they graduate? "

What I meant by this is just imagine you're working a very physical or mentally taxing job and you make decent money. You're paying a higher tax rate due to your income that you work very hard for. Now a chunk of thatmaney you earned is being used to pay some school to hand out a degree that won't help the student out in the real world. Think the reaction many have to those cheating the welfare system. I'd imagine it would generate some angst is all.
How big is that chunk of taxes you are paying for expanding financial aide for college actually going to be? Any idea?

Is it going to be more or less than what you pay for

Medicaid?
Medicare?
Public housing?
Public schools?
Public transportation?
Other government public entitlements?
Corporate entitlements?
Widespread fraud in the federal budget?

My guess is the taxes allocated out of that person's taxes for an expansion of free college would be less than a couple bucks a year, if taxes would be even needed to do it.

It's my opinion that if the federal government got real about the federal budget they could streamline it, eliminate or reduce fraud and pork, and move some money around between departments, so that stuff like infrastructure spending, free college or at the very least massively expanded financial aide, and excellent healthcare insurance for all under a one payor system is viable without taxes.

Yeah, a pipedream, I know.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2019, 06:58:04 PM »

Offline OhioGreen

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I think free community college tuition, or the equal cost equivalent should be provided..........to any honorably discharged VETERAN!  You want free college, serve your country first!  Have absolutely no problem with that!

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2019, 06:59:01 PM »

Offline OhioGreen

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Meant to say cost equivalent to a private school.

Re: Is free public college something that should happen?
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2019, 07:20:48 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think free community college tuition, or the equal cost equivalent should be provided..........to any honorably discharged VETERAN!  You want free college, serve your country first!  Have absolutely no problem with that!
Veterans deserve so much more than that. A free 4 year degree or equivalent in trade training is where I would begin for vets and here is the kicker, I wouldn't limit it to tuition at public schools. If they can get into the best colleges, pay for the tuition there too.

Let's say a kid(let's make him male) is brilliant but decides he wants to be a US foot soldier in war torn areas. He is a patriot and wants to serve first before going to college. He joins the army, serves six years in Afghanistan seeing lots of war and then decides he has done enough so upon returning home applies to Harvard and gets in?

Why should he be limited to only going to a state school or community college? Pay that guy's tuition to Harvard. He has earned that, especially if he never made more than $30K a year to be fighting a war in defense of this country. Good God, you couldn't pay most of us a million dollars to fight in a war for a week and a large many of our kids are out there doing it for a wage slightly over the poverty level.

If our kids can come back and get into the best schools in our country after fighting in wars, pay their way. The already paid it forward to us, we need to pay it back to them.

 

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