Author Topic: CBA Resource : Room Exception v. MLE  (Read 1786 times)

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CBA Resource : Room Exception v. MLE
« on: July 01, 2019, 07:10:43 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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So many people, myself included are struggling with why we:

a) only had the room exception available when we agreed with Kanter

and,

b) couldn't sign our own free agents using bird rights (MOrris, Theis) to go over the cap, and then get the full mid-level.

Can people have a go at trying to explain this? I think Footey said in the official rumors thread that it makes no sense that capped teams get the full, and teams under the cap only get the smaller room exception.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 03:51:08 PM by Donoghus »
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Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2019, 07:19:47 PM »

Online saltlover

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Simply put, because it’s the rules.  Prior to the room exception, the only sort of mid-level exception was for capped teams.  Teams using cap space went up to the cap limit and could do no more.  The theory is that cap space is already more valuable — you can sign players to higher salaries, you can acquire them with trades, etc.  The various MLEs, room included, are less flexible.  Since cap space teams have more flexibility as is, capped teams needed some way to acquire a free agent for other than the minimum, and thus the MLE was born.  They added the taxpayer version to punish those with incredibly high payrolls, and the room exception to throw a bone to those filling their rosters with max players.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2019, 07:23:31 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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So many people, myself included are struggling with why we:

a) only had the room exception available when we agreed with Kanter

and,

b) couldn't sign our own free agents using bird rights (MOrris, Theis) to go over the cap, and then get the full mid-level.

Can people have a go at trying to explain this? I think Footey said in the official rumors thread that it makes no sense that capped teams get the full, and teams under the cap only get the smaller room exception.



If you use cap space to sign a player, the only exception you get to use is the Room Exception.

If you use bird rights to sign your own players and go over the cap, then you get the Full MLE because you didn't use cap "room" to sign anybody.


I think there is theoretically a way the Celts could have pulled off a big complicated S&T so that they didn't use cap room to sign Kemba Walker, but it was too hard to make that happen.

Thus, the Celts used cap space to sign Kemba and are therefore only allowed to use the small Room Exception.


Why does it work that way? Because that's how the rules are set up.
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Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2019, 07:26:54 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Yeah, I have been complaining about this for years. That is a great explanation SL, but your first sentence says it all. I get that over the cap teams need a way of adding talent, but it seems like the MLE should automatically kick in once a team has spent up to the cap.

Of course cap space is more valuable, but teams with cap space have presumably done a better job managing their the salary than teams who haphazardly spend too much. Of course this isn't how it always works as this one rule proves to be prudent for teams to maintain a salary level somewhere between the cap and tax.

My bigger issue is with teams losing star FAs and not being able to do anything about it. If you trade a player into a team's cap space you get a huge TPE, but if that same player leaves you to go to another team, you get squat. Other leagues give teams compensatory picks; I think teams in the NBA should at least get a FA exception, or something, so that they can remain above the cap if they so choose.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2019, 07:27:11 PM »

Offline libermaniac

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Simply put, because it’s the rules.  Prior to the room exception, the only sort of mid-level exception was for capped teams.  Teams using cap space went up to the cap limit and could do no more.  The theory is that cap space is already more valuable — you can sign players to higher salaries, you can acquire them with trades, etc.  The various MLEs, room included, are less flexible.  Since cap space teams have more flexibility as is, capped teams needed some way to acquire a free agent for other than the minimum, and thus the MLE was born.  They added the taxpayer version to punish those with incredibly high payrolls, and the room exception to throw a bone to those filling their rosters with max players.
Is this going to be on the test?  :o

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2019, 07:35:08 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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OK, this still hasn't answered b)

Why can't we sign Morris and Theis, go over the cap, and get the full MLE.
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2019, 07:39:53 PM »

Offline jambr380

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OK, this still hasn't answered b)

Why can't we sign Morris and Theis, go over the cap, and get the full MLE.

We have to renounce Morris' cap hold in order to sign Kemba. We already extended Theis a QO so he will likely be retained. His QO fits in the cap space even with Kemba.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2019, 07:56:34 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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OK, this still hasn't answered b)

Why can't we sign Morris and Theis, go over the cap, and get the full MLE.

We have to renounce Morris' cap hold in order to sign Kemba. We already extended Theis a QO so he will likely be retained. His QO fits in the cap space even with Kemba.

OK, but did we/have need(ed) to renounce Morris? This is the moratorium, no deals are done yet right?

With Kyrie and Al's money off the books (effectively), Kemba can be fit in easily.

Or is it simply that we can't, currently, guarantee Kanter any more than 4.8 million?

Basketball Insiders is estimating are current cap sheet at $103,894,227. So we have more cap space right?
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2019, 08:01:43 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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I believe the NBA has a designated captologist for every basketball blog. Saltlover is ours.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2019, 08:15:20 PM »

Offline jambr380

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OK, this still hasn't answered b)

Why can't we sign Morris and Theis, go over the cap, and get the full MLE.

We have to renounce Morris' cap hold in order to sign Kemba. We already extended Theis a QO so he will likely be retained. His QO fits in the cap space even with Kemba.

OK, but did we/have need(ed) to renounce Morris? This is the moratorium, no deals are done yet right?

With Kyrie and Al's money off the books (effectively), Kemba can be fit in easily.

Or is it simply that we can't, currently, guarantee Kanter any more than 4.8 million?

Basketball Insiders is estimating are current cap sheet at $103,894,227. So we have more cap space right?

Better to use Spotrac as your source as they have much better breakdowns. The $103.8M # is the active cap (including Kanter who can actually be added on afterwards because of the exception). You need to take into account the cap holds for the rookies as well as Theis.

Morris' cap hold is actually over $10M so that has to go before we can sign Kemba. I suppose there is always a small chance that some crazy s&t including Morris, Rozier, Yabu, Semi, Timelord, rookies could get us into Kemba territory (additional teams needed) so that we could get some cap space back, but that is extremely unlikely.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2019, 08:18:27 PM »

Offline footey

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Simply put, because it’s the rules.  Prior to the room exception, the only sort of mid-level exception was for capped teams.  Teams using cap space went up to the cap limit and could do no more.  The theory is that cap space is already more valuable — you can sign players to higher salaries, you can acquire them with trades, etc.  The various MLEs, room included, are less flexible.  Since cap space teams have more flexibility as is, capped teams needed some way to acquire a free agent for other than the minimum, and thus the MLE was born.  They added the taxpayer version to punish those with incredibly high payrolls, and the room exception to throw a bone to those filling their rosters with max players.

Thank you for this explanation.

The road to hell was once again paved with good intentions. It is the ultimate irony that only be trying to figure out how to spend over the cap, can you qualify to pay twice as much as your competitor. 

That is the stupidest rule that a CBA has ever produced. An example of lawyers getting involved too much and f'ing things up (I should know, I've been practicing commercial law for 35 years!!).

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2019, 08:19:19 PM »

Online saltlover

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OK, this still hasn't answered b)

Why can't we sign Morris and Theis, go over the cap, and get the full MLE.

We have to renounce Morris' cap hold in order to sign Kemba. We already extended Theis a QO so he will likely be retained. His QO fits in the cap space even with Kemba.

OK, but did we/have need(ed) to renounce Morris? This is the moratorium, no deals are done yet right?

With Kyrie and Al's money off the books (effectively), Kemba can be fit in easily.

Or is it simply that we can't, currently, guarantee Kanter any more than 4.8 million?

Basketball Insiders is estimating are current cap sheet at $103,894,227. So we have more cap space right?

We have not actually renounced Morris yet.  He won’t be renounced until seconds before Kemba signs, in case something else can be worked out before then.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2019, 08:20:57 PM »

Online saltlover

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Simply put, because it’s the rules.  Prior to the room exception, the only sort of mid-level exception was for capped teams.  Teams using cap space went up to the cap limit and could do no more.  The theory is that cap space is already more valuable — you can sign players to higher salaries, you can acquire them with trades, etc.  The various MLEs, room included, are less flexible.  Since cap space teams have more flexibility as is, capped teams needed some way to acquire a free agent for other than the minimum, and thus the MLE was born.  They added the taxpayer version to punish those with incredibly high payrolls, and the room exception to throw a bone to those filling their rosters with max players.

Thank you for this explanation.

The road to hell was once again paved with good intentions. It is the ultimate irony that only be trying to figure out how to spend over the cap, can you qualify to pay twice as much as your competitor. 

That is the stupidest rule that a CBA has ever produced. An example of lawyers getting involved too much and f'ing things up (I should know, I've been practicing commercial law for 35 years!!).

It makes sense when you think about the motivations of the negotiating parties.  The owners want to limit payrolls as much as possible.  The players want to provide as many options as possible to veteran role players.

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2019, 08:22:06 PM »

Offline sirnastee

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OK, this still hasn't answered b)

Why can't we sign Morris and Theis, go over the cap, and get the full MLE.

We have to renounce Morris' cap hold in order to sign Kemba. We already extended Theis a QO so he will likely be retained. His QO fits in the cap space even with Kemba.

OK, but did we/have need(ed) to renounce Morris? This is the moratorium, no deals are done yet right?

With Kyrie and Al's money off the books (effectively), Kemba can be fit in easily.

Or is it simply that we can't, currently, guarantee Kanter any more than 4.8 million?

Basketball Insiders is estimating are current cap sheet at $103,894,227. So we have more cap space right?

I think, after we renounced all our FA's, that left us with about 34... kemba takes 32, and that left us with about 1.8 mil for Theis' qualifying offer. 

Re: This danged MLE
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2019, 08:22:26 PM »

Offline Silky

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I am still holding out for brooklyn to play ball.

I think danny caves and gives a pick or 2. We dont need 3 first rounders again next season and are much much better served to be able to retain the full mle and morris if we want.

I mean i know. Danny only want to trade 1 pick for 2 picks but the time comes to cash in a couple for a different asset.



 

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