ESPN selects C's most likely to win east, 2nd most likely to win it all

[Moranis]

Toronto is the wild card.  Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over DeMar DeRozan.  It is too be seen if Leonard is going to get past all his issues but if he does, Toronto will be a tough out for the Celtics.  I am not worried about the Sixers but I am worried about the Bucks to some degree.  The Celtics should be the preseason favorite to will the East.

DeMar DeRozan still was giving you 23 ppg in the regular season and playoffs. The Raptors still need to replace that. Leonard will take up some of that but not all. He is a better all around player, but DeRozan was still one of the best scorers in the league and he was surprisingly efficient too. Then you add in Leonard already has one foot out the door to the Lakers and that will be a story all year in Toronto.

Not sure how you can say that Leonard won't replace those 23 ppg when in Leonard's last healthy year he averaged 25 ppg in the regular season and 28 ppg in the playoffs.  He will be the focal point of the Raptors and should be able to replace all of DeRozan's scoring and greatly improve on DeRozan's defense.

Setting aside health issues, Leonard has played for one team and one coach, generally regarded as the best in the NBA. He was brought along gradually and his offensive game took a number of years to develop. He's always played with elite 3 point shooting and great ball movement. He is also unusual in that while he is a superstar, he's also an introvert, and does not naturally assert alpha dog status. He may have some trouble remapping his offensive game to a new team.

While there’s no real evidence to support this, I’ve been thinking similar thoughts. If Brad Stevens is Popovich 2.0 and good players here almost always look significantly worse after they leave (Olynik withstanding) then maybe a #15 pick (I think) who thrived under Pop could play worse elsewhere?

Players like Bryn Forbes may be system guys who don't perform as well when they leave a system, but top 3 players in the league are not top 3 players because of the system.  It is just silly nonsense that was used to slight Leonard to make people feel better about him leaving San An or not acquiring him someplace else.

[iadera]

I'm predicting close to the same but I think the C's are winning it all.

Same with me. We're winning it all. It's now or never (at least in near future). GS got what they got, but we got Stevens and hopefully a full roster. I'll go further. C's in 6! 

[smokeablount]

Toronto is the wild card.  Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over DeMar DeRozan.  It is too be seen if Leonard is going to get past all his issues but if he does, Toronto will be a tough out for the Celtics.  I am not worried about the Sixers but I am worried about the Bucks to some degree.  The Celtics should be the preseason favorite to will the East.

DeMar DeRozan still was giving you 23 ppg in the regular season and playoffs. The Raptors still need to replace that. Leonard will take up some of that but not all. He is a better all around player, but DeRozan was still one of the best scorers in the league and he was surprisingly efficient too. Then you add in Leonard already has one foot out the door to the Lakers and that will be a story all year in Toronto.

Not sure how you can say that Leonard won't replace those 23 ppg when in Leonard's last healthy year he averaged 25 ppg in the regular season and 28 ppg in the playoffs.  He will be the focal point of the Raptors and should be able to replace all of DeRozan's scoring and greatly improve on DeRozan's defense.

Setting aside health issues, Leonard has played for one team and one coach, generally regarded as the best in the NBA. He was brought along gradually and his offensive game took a number of years to develop. He's always played with elite 3 point shooting and great ball movement. He is also unusual in that while he is a superstar, he's also an introvert, and does not naturally assert alpha dog status. He may have some trouble remapping his offensive game to a new team.

While there’s no real evidence to support this, I’ve been thinking similar thoughts. If Brad Stevens is Popovich 2.0 and good players here almost always look significantly worse after they leave (Olynik withstanding) then maybe a #15 pick (I think) who thrived under Pop could play worse elsewhere?

Players like Bryn Forbes may be system guys who don't perform as well when they leave a system, but top 3 players in the league are not top 3 players because of the system.  It is just silly nonsense that was used to slight Leonard to make people feel better about him leaving San An or not acquiring him someplace else.

No, it's a natural thing to wonder.  I'm not claiming IT is Kawhi, but he was 2nd Team All NBA under Brad and when healthy this year he was a bench gunner.  Kawhi is joining a 'choking team' after not playing for a year, with a rookie head coach.  Regression is certainly a possibility and it's 'silly nonsense' to pretend that's just impossible.

[saltlover]

Just stay healthy and the Celtics will win the East.

And I would even qualify that definition of healthy.  I think if 4 of 5 of Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford can give us at least 65 games, and the 5th give us 50, and the same is true of 2 our of 3 of Smart, Rozier, and Baynes, we should still be able to take the top record.  We don’t need everyone playing 75+ games — we just our top players available about 75% of the time.

Same is true in the playoffs.  Someone can miss a game here or there.  We just can’t have a repeat of last year.

[saltlover]

Toronto is the wild card.  Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over DeMar DeRozan.  It is too be seen if Leonard is going to get past all his issues but if he does, Toronto will be a tough out for the Celtics.  I am not worried about the Sixers but I am worried about the Bucks to some degree.  The Celtics should be the preseason favorite to will the East.

DeMar DeRozan still was giving you 23 ppg in the regular season and playoffs. The Raptors still need to replace that. Leonard will take up some of that but not all. He is a better all around player, but DeRozan was still one of the best scorers in the league and he was surprisingly efficient too. Then you add in Leonard already has one foot out the door to the Lakers and that will be a story all year in Toronto.

Not sure how you can say that Leonard won't replace those 23 ppg when in Leonard's last healthy year he averaged 25 ppg in the regular season and 28 ppg in the playoffs.  He will be the focal point of the Raptors and should be able to replace all of DeRozan's scoring and greatly improve on DeRozan's defense.

Setting aside health issues, Leonard has played for one team and one coach, generally regarded as the best in the NBA. He was brought along gradually and his offensive game took a number of years to develop. He's always played with elite 3 point shooting and great ball movement. He is also unusual in that while he is a superstar, he's also an introvert, and does not naturally assert alpha dog status. He may have some trouble remapping his offensive game to a new team.

While there’s no real evidence to support this, I’ve been thinking similar thoughts. If Brad Stevens is Popovich 2.0 and good players here almost always look significantly worse after they leave (Olynik withstanding) then maybe a #15 pick (I think) who thrived under Pop could play worse elsewhere?

Players like Bryn Forbes may be system guys who don't perform as well when they leave a system, but top 3 players in the league are not top 3 players because of the system.  It is just silly nonsense that was used to slight Leonard to make people feel better about him leaving San An or not acquiring him someplace else.

No, it's a natural thing to wonder.  I'm not claiming IT is Kawhi, but he was 2nd Team All NBA under Brad and when healthy this year he was a bench gunner.  Kawhi is joining a 'choking team' after not playing for a year, with a rookie head coach.  Regression is certainly a possibility and it's 'silly nonsense' to pretend that's just impossible.

There was no time this season when he was healthy.

[td450]

Toronto is the wild card.  Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over DeMar DeRozan.  It is too be seen if Leonard is going to get past all his issues but if he does, Toronto will be a tough out for the Celtics.  I am not worried about the Sixers but I am worried about the Bucks to some degree.  The Celtics should be the preseason favorite to will the East.

DeMar DeRozan still was giving you 23 ppg in the regular season and playoffs. The Raptors still need to replace that. Leonard will take up some of that but not all. He is a better all around player, but DeRozan was still one of the best scorers in the league and he was surprisingly efficient too. Then you add in Leonard already has one foot out the door to the Lakers and that will be a story all year in Toronto.

Not sure how you can say that Leonard won't replace those 23 ppg when in Leonard's last healthy year he averaged 25 ppg in the regular season and 28 ppg in the playoffs.  He will be the focal point of the Raptors and should be able to replace all of DeRozan's scoring and greatly improve on DeRozan's defense.

Setting aside health issues, Leonard has played for one team and one coach, generally regarded as the best in the NBA. He was brought along gradually and his offensive game took a number of years to develop. He's always played with elite 3 point shooting and great ball movement. He is also unusual in that while he is a superstar, he's also an introvert, and does not naturally assert alpha dog status. He may have some trouble remapping his offensive game to a new team.

While there’s no real evidence to support this, I’ve been thinking similar thoughts. If Brad Stevens is Popovich 2.0 and good players here almost always look significantly worse after they leave (Olynik withstanding) then maybe a #15 pick (I think) who thrived under Pop could play worse elsewhere?

Players like Bryn Forbes may be system guys who don't perform as well when they leave a system, but top 3 players in the league are not top 3 players because of the system.  It is just silly nonsense that was used to slight Leonard to make people feel better about him leaving San An or not acquiring him someplace else.

I didn't claim he was only a top 3 player because of the system he played in. I claimed he hasn't had to make a lot of adjustments or deal with major scheme changes in his career yet, and that he may need some time to figure it out.

He might very well hit the ground running and play just as well as he did at his peak in San Antonio, but he also might need several months for him and his teammates to figure out how to get the best out of him. While claiming Kawhi is just a system player is "silly nonsense", it's no less silly to claim that he didn't benefit at all from the continuity of playing in the league's most successful system. The truth is almost certainly in between, and that's all I claimed.

[Donoghus]

Just stay healthy and the Celtics will win the East.

And I would even qualify that definition of healthy.  I think if 4 of 5 of Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford can give us at least 65 games, and the 5th give us 50, and the same is true of 2 our of 3 of Smart, Rozier, and Baynes, we should still be able to take the top record.  We don’t need everyone playing 75+ games — we just our top players available about 75% of the time.

Same is true in the playoffs.  Someone can miss a game here or there.  We just can’t have a repeat of last year.

Absolutely.

Live up to those standards & I have no doubt this team will be hosting games in June. 

[Moranis]

Just stay healthy and the Celtics will win the East.

And I would even qualify that definition of healthy.  I think if 4 of 5 of Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford can give us at least 65 games, and the 5th give us 50, and the same is true of 2 our of 3 of Smart, Rozier, and Baynes, we should still be able to take the top record.  We don’t need everyone playing 75+ games — we just our top players available about 75% of the time.

Same is true in the playoffs.  Someone can miss a game here or there.  We just can’t have a repeat of last year.

I don't think you have described a situation where Boston will have enough health to be the top seed.  I don't think Boston needs to be the top seed to win the conference though.

[smokeablount]

Toronto is the wild card.  Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over DeMar DeRozan.  It is too be seen if Leonard is going to get past all his issues but if he does, Toronto will be a tough out for the Celtics.  I am not worried about the Sixers but I am worried about the Bucks to some degree.  The Celtics should be the preseason favorite to will the East.

DeMar DeRozan still was giving you 23 ppg in the regular season and playoffs. The Raptors still need to replace that. Leonard will take up some of that but not all. He is a better all around player, but DeRozan was still one of the best scorers in the league and he was surprisingly efficient too. Then you add in Leonard already has one foot out the door to the Lakers and that will be a story all year in Toronto.

Not sure how you can say that Leonard won't replace those 23 ppg when in Leonard's last healthy year he averaged 25 ppg in the regular season and 28 ppg in the playoffs.  He will be the focal point of the Raptors and should be able to replace all of DeRozan's scoring and greatly improve on DeRozan's defense.

Setting aside health issues, Leonard has played for one team and one coach, generally regarded as the best in the NBA. He was brought along gradually and his offensive game took a number of years to develop. He's always played with elite 3 point shooting and great ball movement. He is also unusual in that while he is a superstar, he's also an introvert, and does not naturally assert alpha dog status. He may have some trouble remapping his offensive game to a new team.

While there’s no real evidence to support this, I’ve been thinking similar thoughts. If Brad Stevens is Popovich 2.0 and good players here almost always look significantly worse after they leave (Olynik withstanding) then maybe a #15 pick (I think) who thrived under Pop could play worse elsewhere?

Players like Bryn Forbes may be system guys who don't perform as well when they leave a system, but top 3 players in the league are not top 3 players because of the system.  It is just silly nonsense that was used to slight Leonard to make people feel better about him leaving San An or not acquiring him someplace else.

No, it's a natural thing to wonder.  I'm not claiming IT is Kawhi, but he was 2nd Team All NBA under Brad and when healthy this year he was a bench gunner.  Kawhi is joining a 'choking team' after not playing for a year, with a rookie head coach.  Regression is certainly a possibility and it's 'silly nonsense' to pretend that's just impossible.

There was no time this season when he was healthy.

Fair, but it looks like he'll be a bench gunner this year too, when he should be healthy.  I'm not suggesting Kawhi drops off the map but I think it's absolutely possible he plays more like a top 10 player this year than a top 3 player, though I wouldn't bet on it. 

EDIT - And IMO, there's a big difference between a top 3 and a top 10 player.

[Moranis]

Toronto is the wild card.  Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over DeMar DeRozan.  It is too be seen if Leonard is going to get past all his issues but if he does, Toronto will be a tough out for the Celtics.  I am not worried about the Sixers but I am worried about the Bucks to some degree.  The Celtics should be the preseason favorite to will the East.

DeMar DeRozan still was giving you 23 ppg in the regular season and playoffs. The Raptors still need to replace that. Leonard will take up some of that but not all. He is a better all around player, but DeRozan was still one of the best scorers in the league and he was surprisingly efficient too. Then you add in Leonard already has one foot out the door to the Lakers and that will be a story all year in Toronto.

Not sure how you can say that Leonard won't replace those 23 ppg when in Leonard's last healthy year he averaged 25 ppg in the regular season and 28 ppg in the playoffs.  He will be the focal point of the Raptors and should be able to replace all of DeRozan's scoring and greatly improve on DeRozan's defense.

Setting aside health issues, Leonard has played for one team and one coach, generally regarded as the best in the NBA. He was brought along gradually and his offensive game took a number of years to develop. He's always played with elite 3 point shooting and great ball movement. He is also unusual in that while he is a superstar, he's also an introvert, and does not naturally assert alpha dog status. He may have some trouble remapping his offensive game to a new team.

While there’s no real evidence to support this, I’ve been thinking similar thoughts. If Brad Stevens is Popovich 2.0 and good players here almost always look significantly worse after they leave (Olynik withstanding) then maybe a #15 pick (I think) who thrived under Pop could play worse elsewhere?

Players like Bryn Forbes may be system guys who don't perform as well when they leave a system, but top 3 players in the league are not top 3 players because of the system.  It is just silly nonsense that was used to slight Leonard to make people feel better about him leaving San An or not acquiring him someplace else.

No, it's a natural thing to wonder.  I'm not claiming IT is Kawhi, but he was 2nd Team All NBA under Brad and when healthy this year he was a bench gunner.  Kawhi is joining a 'choking team' after not playing for a year, with a rookie head coach.  Regression is certainly a possibility and it's 'silly nonsense' to pretend that's just impossible.

There was no time this season when he was healthy.

Fair, but it looks like he'll be a bench gunner this year too, when he should be healthy.  I'm not suggesting Kawhi drops off the map but I think it's absolutely possible he plays more like a top 10 player this year than a top 3 player, though I wouldn't bet on it. 

EDIT - And IMO, there's a big difference between a top 3 and a top 10 player.

Still better than DeRozan though and they also added Danny Green in the trade (while only also losing Poeltl).  The coaching could be a factor as could the health of Leonard, such that they don't win 59 games again, but I absolutely think Toronto will be a significantly better team come the playoffs this year then they were last year.

[smokeablount]

Toronto is the wild card.  Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over DeMar DeRozan.  It is too be seen if Leonard is going to get past all his issues but if he does, Toronto will be a tough out for the Celtics.  I am not worried about the Sixers but I am worried about the Bucks to some degree.  The Celtics should be the preseason favorite to will the East.

DeMar DeRozan still was giving you 23 ppg in the regular season and playoffs. The Raptors still need to replace that. Leonard will take up some of that but not all. He is a better all around player, but DeRozan was still one of the best scorers in the league and he was surprisingly efficient too. Then you add in Leonard already has one foot out the door to the Lakers and that will be a story all year in Toronto.

Not sure how you can say that Leonard won't replace those 23 ppg when in Leonard's last healthy year he averaged 25 ppg in the regular season and 28 ppg in the playoffs.  He will be the focal point of the Raptors and should be able to replace all of DeRozan's scoring and greatly improve on DeRozan's defense.

Setting aside health issues, Leonard has played for one team and one coach, generally regarded as the best in the NBA. He was brought along gradually and his offensive game took a number of years to develop. He's always played with elite 3 point shooting and great ball movement. He is also unusual in that while he is a superstar, he's also an introvert, and does not naturally assert alpha dog status. He may have some trouble remapping his offensive game to a new team.

While there’s no real evidence to support this, I’ve been thinking similar thoughts. If Brad Stevens is Popovich 2.0 and good players here almost always look significantly worse after they leave (Olynik withstanding) then maybe a #15 pick (I think) who thrived under Pop could play worse elsewhere?

Players like Bryn Forbes may be system guys who don't perform as well when they leave a system, but top 3 players in the league are not top 3 players because of the system.  It is just silly nonsense that was used to slight Leonard to make people feel better about him leaving San An or not acquiring him someplace else.

No, it's a natural thing to wonder.  I'm not claiming IT is Kawhi, but he was 2nd Team All NBA under Brad and when healthy this year he was a bench gunner.  Kawhi is joining a 'choking team' after not playing for a year, with a rookie head coach.  Regression is certainly a possibility and it's 'silly nonsense' to pretend that's just impossible.

There was no time this season when he was healthy.

Fair, but it looks like he'll be a bench gunner this year too, when he should be healthy.  I'm not suggesting Kawhi drops off the map but I think it's absolutely possible he plays more like a top 10 player this year than a top 3 player, though I wouldn't bet on it. 

EDIT - And IMO, there's a big difference between a top 3 and a top 10 player.

Still better than DeRozan though and they also added Danny Green in the trade (while only also losing Poeltl).  The coaching could be a factor as could the health of Leonard, such that they don't win 59 games again, but I absolutely think Toronto will be a significantly better team come the playoffs this year then they were last year.

Sure, but last year's Celtics playoff team + Kyrie + Hayward + a year of development for Jaylen, Jayson, Smart and Terry should make a bigger leap from last year than Toronto. 

That said, Toronto is the team I'm worried about. 

[Rosco917]

I understand how good of a team Golden State is, but against Houston, they fell into the dangerous habit of taking their foot off the gas for long periods of time allowing them to come very close to losing that series. (The Cavs were not good enough of a team to challenge them period)

I believe the Celtics will be a better team than Houston last year. The Celtics will shock the basketball world and beat the Warriors because the Warriors will let a game or two slip out of their cocky little hands. 

[gouki88]

Toronto is the wild card.  Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over DeMar DeRozan.  It is too be seen if Leonard is going to get past all his issues but if he does, Toronto will be a tough out for the Celtics.  I am not worried about the Sixers but I am worried about the Bucks to some degree.  The Celtics should be the preseason favorite to will the East.

DeMar DeRozan still was giving you 23 ppg in the regular season and playoffs. The Raptors still need to replace that. Leonard will take up some of that but not all. He is a better all around player, but DeRozan was still one of the best scorers in the league and he was surprisingly efficient too. Then you add in Leonard already has one foot out the door to the Lakers and that will be a story all year in Toronto.

Not sure how you can say that Leonard won't replace those 23 ppg when in Leonard's last healthy year he averaged 25 ppg in the regular season and 28 ppg in the playoffs.  He will be the focal point of the Raptors and should be able to replace all of DeRozan's scoring and greatly improve on DeRozan's defense.

Setting aside health issues, Leonard has played for one team and one coach, generally regarded as the best in the NBA. He was brought along gradually and his offensive game took a number of years to develop. He's always played with elite 3 point shooting and great ball movement. He is also unusual in that while he is a superstar, he's also an introvert, and does not naturally assert alpha dog status. He may have some trouble remapping his offensive game to a new team.

While there’s no real evidence to support this, I’ve been thinking similar thoughts. If Brad Stevens is Popovich 2.0 and good players here almost always look significantly worse after they leave (Olynik withstanding) then maybe a #15 pick (I think) who thrived under Pop could play worse elsewhere?

Players like Bryn Forbes may be system guys who don't perform as well when they leave a system, but top 3 players in the league are not top 3 players because of the system.  It is just silly nonsense that was used to slight Leonard to make people feel better about him leaving San An or not acquiring him someplace else.

No, it's a natural thing to wonder.  I'm not claiming IT is Kawhi, but he was 2nd Team All NBA under Brad and when healthy this year he was a bench gunner.  Kawhi is joining a 'choking team' after not playing for a year, with a rookie head coach.  Regression is certainly a possibility and it's 'silly nonsense' to pretend that's just impossible.

There was no time this season when he was healthy.

Fair, but it looks like he'll be a bench gunner this year too, when he should be healthy.  I'm not suggesting Kawhi drops off the map but I think it's absolutely possible he plays more like a top 10 player this year than a top 3 player, though I wouldn't bet on it. 

EDIT - And IMO, there's a big difference between a top 3 and a top 10 player.

Still better than DeRozan though and they also added Danny Green in the trade (while only also losing Poeltl).  The coaching could be a factor as could the health of Leonard, such that they don't win 59 games again, but I absolutely think Toronto will be a significantly better team come the playoffs this year then they were last year.

I think Poeltl is a bigger loss than Green is a gain