Author Topic: Exploiting Regular Season Defense: The Celtics and Hawks and Empty Success  (Read 12310 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19049
  • Tommy Points: 1834
So now the Bulls get dismantled at home by the Cavs.

And this was a Cavs team that was without Love, a team that only played Irving 12 minutes, and LeBron only managed to score 15 points. Yet, they beat the Bulls by 21 points.

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
So now the Bulls get dismantled at home by the Cavs.

And this was a Cavs team that was without Love, a team that only played Irving 12 minutes, and LeBron only managed to score 15 points. Yet, they beat the Bulls by 21 points.

And the Hawks won game 5.  :)  Not to mention Houston's crazy comeback last night on the backs of their jumper-happy reserves.

The Pau injury was huge for Chicago.  With him healthy, they had a good shot.  Without him, not so much.

Cavs vs Hawks will be pretty interesting.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20271
  • Tommy Points: 1342
Quote
And this was a Cavs team that was without Love, a team that only played Irving 12 minutes, and LeBron only managed to score 15 points. Yet, they beat the Bulls by 21 points.
 

Losing Love did not hurt their defense, and in all honesty, he did not always play much down the stretch this year for them when games were close.

Behold:

 http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/12/david_blatt_chose_to_go_withou.html

They have been doing this all season and that is from CLE big paper.

Offline loco_91

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2087
  • Tommy Points: 145
I just see two wannabe-Spurs teams that haven't quite made it there. It's a good mold, these teams just don't quite have the talent to beat the likes of LeBron James.

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19049
  • Tommy Points: 1834
Quote
And this was a Cavs team that was without Love, a team that only played Irving 12 minutes, and LeBron only managed to score 15 points. Yet, they beat the Bulls by 21 points.
 

Losing Love did not hurt their defense, and in all honesty, he did not always play much down the stretch this year for them when games were close.

Behold:

 http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/12/david_blatt_chose_to_go_withou.html

They have been doing this all season and that is from CLE big paper.

That's fine. Still remains true that you have a Bulls team, lauded in this thread as the right type of team for the playoffs, losing to a team that is more than decimated by injuries, all couched with the argument that the Celtics were "demolished" by Cleveland (at full strength) as proof that our team's play is not conductive to the playoffs game. You know, a Celtics team that pretty much squeezed into the playoffs playing against the hottest / best team in the East.

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Quote
And this was a Cavs team that was without Love, a team that only played Irving 12 minutes, and LeBron only managed to score 15 points. Yet, they beat the Bulls by 21 points.
 

Losing Love did not hurt their defense, and in all honesty, he did not always play much down the stretch this year for them when games were close.

Behold:

 http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/12/david_blatt_chose_to_go_withou.html

They have been doing this all season and that is from CLE big paper.

That's fine. Still remains true that you have a Bulls team, lauded in this thread as the right type of team for the playoffs, losing to a team that is more than decimated by injuries, all couched with the argument that the Celtics were "demolished" by Cleveland (at full strength) as proof that our team's play is not conductive to the playoffs game. You know, a Celtics team that pretty much squeezed into the playoffs playing against the hottest / best team in the East.

I don't think you can throw out the whole idea just because the Bulls lost.  After all, the injuries to their bigs made it difficult for them to press the advantage they had over the Cavs in the frontcourt, which was the whole point.

The Celts were demolished.  You may chafe at that choice of word, but that's the prevailing opinion.  Getting demolished doesn't mean they didn't try.  But the Celts, trying as hard as they could, still got run over by a Cavs team that is still figuring out how to best play together. 

That Cavs team isn't particularly good, by the way.  The injuries to the Bulls meant the Cavs could pretty much just have LeBron do all of the heavy lifting and they were able to get by just fine.

Anyway, the original point with this thread was to raise a point of discussion which I think is interesting and perhaps has some validity to it.  I do believe there is a difference between regular season ball and playoff basketball, and it's possible for a team to be built better for one than the other.

We should know that very well after watching the 2010 team, shouldn't we?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
I just see two wannabe-Spurs teams that haven't quite made it there. It's a good mold, these teams just don't quite have the talent to beat the likes of LeBron James.

I think I agree with this.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Offline GC003332

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 804
  • Tommy Points: 62
I just see two wannabe-Spurs teams that haven't quite made it there. It's a good mold, these teams just don't quite have the talent to beat the likes of LeBron James.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe it hasn't been proven that Hawks couldn't beat the Lebrons in the playoffs ;D

Offline CFAN38

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4978
  • Tommy Points: 434
https://twitter.com/bballbreakdown/status/597153371074756608

Two teams had many glowing articles written about them this year, and two coaches got a lot of positive attention (including a Coach of the Year award), for winning a lot of regular season games despite a perceived lack of talent. 

Both teams made use of a pace-and-space style system predicated on spreading the floor and avoiding zeroing in on any particular player as the focal point of the team.  On the other end, positional versatility made solid defense possible without elite rim protectors.


These two teams, the Boston Celtics, and Atlanta Hawks, both ran into a bit of a wall in the playoffs.  The Celtics got demolished by the Cavaliers, a star laden team heavily reliant on unimaginative isolation plays, while the Hawks struggled with the lumbering, underachieving Brooklyn Nets, and now are fighting tooth and nail to keep pace with a Washington Wizards team missing its superstar point guard.


Perhaps constructing a gameplan for your team that is all about exploiting undisciplined regular season defense isn't such a great thing? 

Noting that a team plays "greater than the sum of its parts" is another way of saying that the team is finding ways to cover up deficiencies in talent -- deficiencies that have a way of getting exposed and exploited in the playoffs.

I haven't watched every playoff game and do not have time to dive deep into the stats. I think ATL and Cs offensive principles are fine, they play a similar style to the Spurs and this has obviously worked. Where I think both teams may currently be flawed in terms of playoff basketball is their front court size. ATL really plays with 2 PFs in Horford and Milsap, the Cs obviously lacked any player with positional length in the front court. When you look at the Spurs one key for them is the fact that they never really have a time where there isnt a 7' with decent length on the court ( Duncan and Splitter).

The Hawks maybe stuck in their construction while I expect the Cs to break this mold and add size/length at at least 2 of the 3 front court positions.
Mavs
Wiz
Hornet

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19049
  • Tommy Points: 1834
Quote
And this was a Cavs team that was without Love, a team that only played Irving 12 minutes, and LeBron only managed to score 15 points. Yet, they beat the Bulls by 21 points.
 

Losing Love did not hurt their defense, and in all honesty, he did not always play much down the stretch this year for them when games were close.

Behold:

 http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/12/david_blatt_chose_to_go_withou.html

They have been doing this all season and that is from CLE big paper.

That's fine. Still remains true that you have a Bulls team, lauded in this thread as the right type of team for the playoffs, losing to a team that is more than decimated by injuries, all couched with the argument that the Celtics were "demolished" by Cleveland (at full strength) as proof that our team's play is not conductive to the playoffs game. You know, a Celtics team that pretty much squeezed into the playoffs playing against the hottest / best team in the East.

I don't think you can throw out the whole idea just because the Bulls lost.  After all, the injuries to their bigs made it difficult for them to press the advantage they had over the Cavs in the frontcourt, which was the whole point.

Just tallying up another factor to the ones I've already expressed throughout the thread. In the Celtics case, it lost to a  vastly more talented team. In the Bulls case, you can actually make the case that the Bulls were actually the team with the most talented group of players in the series, considering how Cleveland had an abundance of injuries AND suspensions, and they still lost... with an actual blowout in the last game with the worst roster the Cavs have fielded in the playoffs so far.

Quote
The Celts were demolished.  You may chafe at that choice of word, but that's the prevailing opinion.  Getting demolished doesn't mean they didn't try.  But the Celts, trying as hard as they could, still got run over by a Cavs team that is still figuring out how to best play together. 

The best team in the East requiring overplaying its best player, requiring it's all-star PG to be in a frequent Supernova shooting state and winning 3 of the 4 games by single digits I'd hardly say it was demolishing of a team that shouldn't have been in the playoffs in the first place.

In fact, I'd say the performance we had against the Cavs shows the opposite of what you're proposing. That the Cavs didn't have an easier time against us, with that big of a talent gap as they had, validates the style of play the Celtics employed. They simply had lesser players to work with, to say nothing on how unbalanced our roster remains as we keep rebuilding it.

Quote
That Cavs team isn't particularly good, by the way.  The injuries to the Bulls meant the Cavs could pretty much just have LeBron do all of the heavy lifting and they were able to get by just fine.

You're aware that LeBron shot under .40% for the series correct? The Bulls were lucky to have the Cavs arrive to that series in this roster fashion, with or without Pau they should've won convincingly.

Quote
Anyway, the original point with this thread was to raise a point of discussion which I think is interesting and perhaps has some validity to it.  I do believe there is a difference between regular season ball and playoff basketball, and it's possible for a team to be built better for one than the other.

We should know that very well after watching the 2010 team, shouldn't we?

I don't disagree that there's a difference between the regular season and the playoffs. The problem is that you're focusing your argument in the wrong factors. I mean, you didn't have to bring the Celtics to this discussion.

You want to make a case for the Hawks? Go at it. Because the Hawks do have the talent and the play style.

The Celtics are severely lacking in the former.

Hawks are still alive, and ahead in their series for whatever that's worth.

And one small factor that hasn't been brought up much, but the Celtics hardly had team that managed to exploit regular season defense. Our offense was pretty much at the bottom in the league.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 12:28:23 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Offline guava_wrench

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9931
  • Tommy Points: 777
I just see two wannabe-Spurs teams that haven't quite made it there. It's a good mold, these teams just don't quite have the talent to beat the likes of LeBron James.
Seems the Spurs are a wannabe-Spurs team as they were also eliminated.

Only 1 team can win out.

Offline LooseCannon

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11833
  • Tommy Points: 950
I think the Bulls beat the Cavs if Brad Stevens had been coaching them.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Offline greece66

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7395
  • Tommy Points: 1342
  • Head Paperboy at Greenville
Hawks participation in the ECF casts some doubt on this thread's title  ;)

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Hawks participation in the ECF casts some doubt on this thread's title  ;)

Maybe, though the way they had to dig deep to get past two teams that won many fewer games than they did in the regular season suggests perhaps there's some validity to it.


Anyway, the simple answer to this whole thing is probably just that the Celts need to add talent, and whatever form that talent takes will determine how the team ends up playing.

Still, I find discussions about roster construction strategy --- beyond the tired debate about tanking vs not-tanking --- to be interesting, and I thought this could spark something.  Instead, for the most part, it seems it mostly caused people to rush to the defense of the Celtics to insist that they in fact did not get "demolished."

Ah well.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Offline LooseCannon

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11833
  • Tommy Points: 950
This article pointing out that Phil Jackson is an idiot may be related.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference