Larry Legend screwed up

[BballTim]

So can we stop using Indiana as a proof point that it's possible to build a "contender" without a superstar?

If they lose to Washington, we'll use the Wizards instead.

You don't think that John Wall applies? He was a #1 pick, after all.

I guess it depends on your definition of "superstar."  If John Wall qualifies as a superstar, there are a whole bunch of superstars in the league picked well outside the lottery.

John Wall is absolutely a superstar. He is Derrick Rose 2.0. I absolutely consider Wall one of the top 15 players in the NBA. I would rather build around john Wall than Kevin Love or Stephen Curry.

Dont forget the point of this whole thread. The Pacers are no longer the banner for how to build a title contender without big time lottery picks. The Wizards have a couple big time lottery studs in Wall and Beal.

I'm a John Wall fan.  He's still very young and he could still keep improving, but there's no way he's at a "superstar" level right now.

That is a fine stance to take. A superstar probably needs to be defined as a player who's fame and accomplishments go beyond his sport. Even that definition doesn't do justice to Lamarcus Aldridge and Marc Gasol. It is hard to define superstar. Was Paul Pierce a superstar? Maybe not, even though he had the talent to be more famous than he was.

Anyway, Wall is perhaps not a superstar yet, but he looks like he is on his way. And again sticking to the point of the thread, the Wizards are not a good example of building a team without high lottery talent. That is my point in this discussion.

I suppose i could have stated my stance as:

The young wizards stars might not be superstars yet, but they cannot be used as an example of building a contender without high lottery talent.

The Pacers had been the banner team for building a team without high lottery talent, and if they fall, no one takes their place.

They are the current poster child.  Let's not forget that both the Lakers and the Mavericks pulled it off recently, though, not to mention the Pistons back in '04.  And, of course, in a round about way our own Celtics back in '08.

The point being, that there's no one formula.  And, you certainly can't determine contenders by how many lottery picks they have on their roster.

I agree that there are many ways to build a contender. But if you want to win the whole thing you still need big time talent, and every champion i can think of had high lottery talent playing key roles. The Pistons had Rasheed and Billups. The Lakers had Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom. Bynum was mid-late lottery. The Mavs had Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, as will as mid - late lottery talent in Dirk and Shawn Marion. All the above players played key roles and starter minutes on their championship teams. Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen were top 5 picks, Pierce was mid-late lottery.

  I wouldn't classify players like Odom, Kidd (on the Mavs), Marion (on the Mavs) as high lottery talent, probably not even Chandler. They're fairly high caliber role players, not close to the same level as KG/Pau/Billups/Ray.

[Mr October]

  I wouldn't classify players like Odom, Kidd (on the Mavs), Marion (on the Mavs) as high lottery talent, probably not even Chandler. They're fairly high caliber role players, not close to the same level as KG/Pau/Billups/Ray.

Nonetheless they are talent found in the lottery, and a guy like Chandler is about on average of what a team can expect in the top 5 spots in a draft. Some are superstars, some are busts, but the average is an all star, just a hair below all star or super defensive role player.

The mavericks dont win the title without Chandler's defensive presence in particular. It may have been the second most valuable role on that team behind Dirk. The Mavs are still get criticized for letting Chandler go to soon, giving up on a chance to continue contending.

sure, Kidd and Marion were past their prime, but they were still top 10 players at their position, kind of like Ray Allen during his last couple years in Boston. Their talent was that good that they could still make significant impacts as super role players.

During those 2 years that the Lakers won the title, Odom finally was living up to his potential. He was a matchup nightmare at the 4 spot for anyone outside of Kevin Garnett. He was playing like an all star and worthy of his top 5 selection many years ago.

All i am saying here is that most big time talent on title teams come from the lottery. You can argue semantics of details. But talent wins, and most talent comes from the lottery.

The Pacers appear to not have enough talent to do better than one excellent duel with Miami in the ECF. We will see if they can buck the trend and win the whole thing, or at least get close.

[Mr October]

Perhaps the Stockton and Malone Jazz should be the poster for contending without high lottery talent. The top 2 players were selected in the teens and i don't recall any of the big minute role players being drafted in the lottery by Utah or any other team.

Granted they never won the whole thing, but at least they were serious contenders year after year.

 

[Celtics18]

Perhaps the Stockton and Malone Jazz should be the poster for contending without high lottery talent. The top 2 players were selected in the teens and i don't recall any of the big minute role players being drafted in the lottery by Utah or any other team.

Granted they never won the whole thing, but at least they were serious contenders year after year.

 

The Jazz would have never made back to back finals without the lottery talent of Antoine Carr and Adam Keefe.

[The One]

The proof is in the pudding on this one.

These Pacers are broken.  They had their chance but this year's personnel gamble didn't pan out.

Oh well, at least Larry is still a Legend.

[GreenWarrior]

I don't know where the pacers go from here. the mentality of this team is broken, the realization that Paul George isn't in the same stratosphere as Durant and Lebron, lance Stephenson is Stephen Jackson 2.0, their center is feeble minded, their pg is no good(let this be a lesson to everyone if you go after former spurs role players - chances are they're not that good they were just coached well.)....and this was one of the top teams in the league this yr.?

they'll never recapture their potential as a top team. they folded as soon as the pressure got to be too much.

[cman88]

well, part of the reason they got evan turner was because I think they realised that Stevenson is most likely gone after this year.

BUT I think that trade while good on paper killed them. maybe like the Perk trade they got rid of a good locker room guy in Granger who we may have been that team leader being the older guy on that team

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Turner and Bynum are the least of their issues.  Their two max level stars (George and Hibbert) have fallen off a cliff.  You can only go as far as your alpha dogs take you.

yup