What Has Danny Done?

[KGs Knee]

No form of tanking effort will give us a better crop of picks over the next 5 years. The reason the team flailed and failed in the late 1990s is the incompetent management, not lack of drafting position -- Ainge managed more with less.

Not to mention Pitino getting rid of guys like Joe Johnson and Chauncey Billups on a whim for nothing in return.

Precisely. In fact, for the draft picks I listed, we had a royal ransom of players: Billups, Johnson, Pierce, Walker... Even if we had to get rid on some of them, there's no excuse for getting back a pittance. These resources should have been enough to build a solid team.

Meh, I don't think any of them were ever traded at a point in their careers where they had a tremendous amount of value, although there may b fault in that alone.  Johnson was the only one who likely should have netted us better value.

Pierce was just traded, at the end of his career, and after a title in Boston.  Not much to complain about there (except for trading him at all).  Billups hadn't really proven much of anything at that point, and I think the rest of the league knew what Walker was at that point; an out of shape 3pt chucker.  Billups should have been held onto longer, and allowed to develop and trading Johnson was just a mistake, but outside of that, it doesn't seem as bad as you make it out to be.  Maybe trade Walker much sooner.

[mmmmm]

I think people are getting a little ahead of themselves about this upcoming draft. A lot of these sure fire prospects are freshman. Some may come out next year and some might stay in school. If I was a betting man ,I would bet on Parker staying at least two years at Duke. Anyway ,the kids are playing great for the Celts. Sit back and watch them develop.

How much would you wager on that?

Because I would take that bet seven times over.

While I personally wouldn't bet on Parker staying, it still is a valid point.  One or two of these 'top 5' kids may, indeed decide to stay in school another year.   There are all kinds of reasons they do so.  Some do it to try to take another shot at a ncaa title.  Some do it to try to get better draft position in the following year.   Some do it just because they want to do another full season of progress towards their degree (shocking, I know, but it happens).

In Parker's case, he might feel staying another year could make him the #1 pick in 2015.

Sullinger himself stayed an additional year.  Of course, that ended up costing him as he was likely #2 in 2011 and ended up instead dropping all the way to #22 for us in 2012 (due to the back issues).

Bradley probably would have benefited by staying another year -- he came out too early, without very notable counting stats.   If he'd stayed at least through his sophomore season, he likely would have posted more impressive scoring numbers and gone much higher.

And of course, other things can happen that totally change the draft.

A year before this last draft, I believe Noel and Shabazz were the top rated players.   Look where they ended up going when the draft finally happened.

The point is, I wouldn't get too enamored of the draft rankings just yet.   A lot can change in how it ends up looking next June.

[D.o.s.]

I think people are getting a little ahead of themselves about this upcoming draft. A lot of these sure fire prospects are freshman. Some may come out next year and some might stay in school. If I was a betting man ,I would bet on Parker staying at least two years at Duke. Anyway ,the kids are playing great for the Celts. Sit back and watch them develop.

How much would you wager on that?

Because I would take that bet seven times over.

While I personally wouldn't bet on Parker staying, it still is a valid point.  One or two of these 'top 5' kids may, indeed decide to stay in school another year.   There are all kinds of reasons they do so.  Some do it to try to take another shot at a ncaa title.  Some do it to try to get better draft position in the following year.   Some do it just because they want to do another full season of progress towards their degree (shocking, I know, but it happens).

In Parker's case, he might feel staying another year could make him the #1 pick in 2015.

Sullinger himself stayed an additional year.  Of course, that ended up costing him as he was likely #2 in 2011 and ended up instead dropping all the way to #22 for us in 2012 (due to the back issues).

Bradley probably would have benefited by staying another year -- he came out too early, without very notable counting stats.   If he'd stayed at least through his sophomore season, he likely would have posted more impressive scoring numbers and gone much higher.

And of course, other things can happen that totally change the draft.

A year before this last draft, I believe Noel and Shabazz were the top rated players.   Look where they ended up going when the draft finally happened.

The point is, I wouldn't get too enamored of the draft rankings just yet.   A lot can change in how it ends up looking next June.

Sure. Marcus Smart sat out this last draft, and he's one of the top prospects for 2014.

I don't think many of the guys being bandied about as surefire picks (Wiggins, Randle, Parker, etc.) will stay for an extra season barring injury or total emotional meltdown, though.

[kozlodoev]

No form of tanking effort will give us a better crop of picks over the next 5 years. The reason the team flailed and failed in the late 1990s is the incompetent management, not lack of drafting position -- Ainge managed more with less.

Not to mention Pitino getting rid of guys like Joe Johnson and Chauncey Billups on a whim for nothing in return.

Precisely. In fact, for the draft picks I listed, we had a royal ransom of players: Billups, Johnson, Pierce, Walker... Even if we had to get rid on some of them, there's no excuse for getting back a pittance. These resources should have been enough to build a solid team.

Meh, I don't think any of them were ever traded at a point in their careers where they had a tremendous amount of value, although there may b fault in that alone.  Johnson was the only one who likely should have netted us better value.

Pierce was just traded, at the end of his career, and after a title in Boston.  Not much to complain about there (except for trading him at all).  Billups hadn't really proven much of anything at that point, and I think the rest of the league knew what Walker was at that point; an out of shape 3pt chucker.  Billups should have been held onto longer, and allowed to develop and trading Johnson was just a mistake, but outside of that, it doesn't seem as bad as you make it out to be.  Maybe trade Walker much sooner.

I'm just saying that we had four(!) players that had considerable stretches of good to great basketball in them, and all we managed to show for this is a handful of sub-50-win teams.

And yes, I consider not being patient with Billups, giving away Johnson, and not shipping out Walker major managerial failures.

And that's before bringing in the fact that we traded the 8th pick in the '99 draft to bring back Eric Williams (could have been Andre Miller, Marion, or Terry). Or actually giving up a pick to ship Johnson out.

So yeah, overall, I think it was pretty bad.

[Emmette Bryant]

is it too soon to bring up the Bobcats' 7-5 start last year?

You sir, are the antidote to exhilaration. 

[tenn_smoothie]

Just don't want to see Danny Boy get that itchy trigger finger going. he is in a perfect situation to return to the days of those bad trades he is famous for - you know when he changes his rebuilding plans four times in one season. KG and Kevin McHale bailed him out the last time.

Has Ainge ever publicly owned up to all the damage he did to the Celtics prior to 2008 ?

[cman88]

Just don't want to see Danny Boy get that itchy trigger finger going. he is in a perfect situation to return to the days of those bad trades he is famous for - you know when he changes his rebuilding plans four times in one season. KG and Kevin McHale bailed him out the last time.

Has Ainge ever publicly owned up to all the damage he did to the Celtics prior to 2008 ?

Ainge was fine...if you think he was bad, what do you think about pitino?

Guy traded away joe Johnson and chauncy billups for peanuts..that set us back more than anything ainge did

Imagine a team with billups, Johnson, pierce, walker...not bad

[Section301]

Just don't want to see Danny Boy get that itchy trigger finger going. he is in a perfect situation to return to the days of those bad trades he is famous for - you know when he changes his rebuilding plans four times in one season. KG and Kevin McHale bailed him out the last time.

Has Ainge ever publicly owned up to all the damage he did to the Celtics prior to 2008 ?

At the time, I wasn't crazy about all the moves Ainge made either - especially all the money he gave to Blount - it felt like he was swimming around in the filth of failed trades. 

Then I went to hoopshype to read all his transactions.  At the top they list what they think is his worst transaction :
Traded Tony Delk and Antoine Walker to Dallas for Jiri Welsch, Chris Mills, Raef LaFrentz and a 2004 first-round pick on October 20, 2003

This is the thing...  the pick became Delonte West.  Mills got moved to Detroit for a pick that became Tony Allen.  Welsh got moved to Cleveland for a pick that ended up going to Phoenix in exchange for...Rajon Rondo.     

Anbody who can parlay Jiri Welsh into Rondo is doing OK  in my book.  and this was his "worst" trade.

He turned Tony Delk and Antoine Walker into an upper echelon PG and one of the best defensive wing players of the last 5 years (and a lovable but very unstable combo guard). 

Yes, if you look at the individual moves, some of them were awful, but the final tally comes out positive, even without a "bailout" from McHale.  Even without the KG deal, they would have a starting lineup of Rondo, Ray Allen, Pierce, Jefferson, and Perkins.  West, Leon Powe, Tony Allen, Big Baby and Ryan Gomes off the bench.  Definitely not as good as with Garnett, but still a team worth rooting for. 

[Fafnir]

We won 36 Pitino's first season.  How'd that do for our long-term success?... It took us a full decade until we were a 50 win team.

And the reason for that were Pitino's 36 wins? Nah.

The Celtics had high picks in 1996 (6), 1997 (3 and 6), 1998 (10), 2000 (11), and 2001 (10 and 11).

No form of tanking effort will give us a better crop of picks over the next 5 years. The reason the team flailed and failed in the late 1990s is the incompetent management, not lack of drafting position -- Ainge managed more with less.

Ironically, the 36-win Pitino season produced Paul Pierce. Take that for what you will.

Yup, Pitino was a terrible GM and a bad coach for the pros.

He needs to be in college where he has all the power and players are young guys.

[Fafnir]

Has Ainge ever publicly owned up to all the damage he did to the Celtics prior to 2008 ?

The only damage he really did was breaking up Pierce/Walker, which wasn't going any further than they did.

After that he was basically doing what Houston did for years, treading water while trying to build up assets. Treading water isn't pretty at times, but in the end it worked.

[kozlodoev]

Has Ainge ever publicly owned up to all the damage he did to the Celtics prior to 2008 ?

Then I went to hoopshype to read all his transactions.  At the top they list what they think is his worst transaction :
Traded Tony Delk and Antoine Walker to Dallas for Jiri Welsch, Chris Mills, Raef LaFrentz and a 2004 first-round pick on October 20, 2003

Ironically, this is the one trade Ainge acknowledged as a poor one. He is on the record saying that he underestimated Raef's health issues.

Because, let's face it, a healthy Raef LaFrentz was no chopped liver. Heck, if Olynyk ends up being similar to 04-05 Raef over his career, I probably won't be terribly disappointed.

[Section301]

Celtics Roster in the spring of '03 when Danny came on:

Paul Pierce
Antoine Walker
Eric Williams
Tony Battie
Vin Baker
Tony Delk
"I Love" Walter McCarty
Mark Blount
J.R. Bremer
Kedrick Brown
Mark Bryant
Bimbo Coles
Grant Long
Mikki Moore
Bruno Sundov
Shammond Williams
Ruben Wolkowyski

Two notable players, two serviceable players, and.....?

Celtics Roster right before the KG Trade:

Paul Pierce
Ray Allen
Al Jefferson
Rajon Rondo
Tony Allen
Ryan Gomes
Kendrick Perkins
Leon Powe
Glenn Davis
Brian Scalabrine
Gerald Green
Michael Olowokandi
Kevinn Pinkney
Theo Ratliff
Allan Ray
Sebastian Telfair

3 Notable players, 1 future all-star and 5 solid rotational players.

[BballTim]

Has Ainge ever publicly owned up to all the damage he did to the Celtics prior to 2008 ?

Then I went to hoopshype to read all his transactions.  At the top they list what they think is his worst transaction :
Traded Tony Delk and Antoine Walker to Dallas for Jiri Welsch, Chris Mills, Raef LaFrentz and a 2004 first-round pick on October 20, 2003

Ironically, this is the one trade Ainge acknowledged as a poor one. He is on the record saying that he underestimated Raef's health issues.

Because, let's face it, a healthy Raef LaFrentz was no chopped liver. Heck, if Olynyk ends up being similar to 04-05 Raef over his career, I probably won't be terribly disappointed.

  I always thought Danny caught a little too much heat for the Raef trade. He was pretty convinced that Raef would return to at least close to his pre-injury level of health. In retrospect that was disastrous but it's not like Danny was poring over x-rays and medical reports before he came to that conclusion on his own, some doctor must have given him the info he acted on.