Author Topic: Let's play a game called "Split up the Cap Space"  (Read 12431 times)

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Re: Let's play a game called "Split up the Cap Space"
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2012, 09:35:53 AM »

Offline chambers

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I'm going to detail where this 25 million can be spent later when I have some spare time.
To me people are really overspending in KG and Green in these mythical budgets.
I haven't heard it from the horse's mouth, but I really doubt KG is interested in playing for other teams. Why Jeff Green gets more coming off heart surgery and a role as a mediocre 6th man doesn't make sense either.
A title is worth more to KG than any money, do we honestly think he'll ask more than 5-6 million if it means we have another 6-7 million on a championship core player?
I can't see how Green goes for more than 4 million during his recovery/ prove it season.
I'd throw an extra 5-6 million in for a landry/odom/Ben Gordon type because of this. In fact if they both went for 10 million combined + 5 for bass we are looking at 9-10 million left to play with.

KG made $20 Million last season, arguably his most productive season in Boston, definitely his most valuable season.  Under no circumstances is a guy who has been signed to max contracts his entire life taking a 75% pay cut for a "chance to win a title."  The Celtics don't guarantee him that next year, anymore than a dozen other teams in the league would have that chance if KG joined their team.

Jeff Green is 26 years old and, if he is cleared medically, should have zero problems recovering his old form.  No reconstructions of any tendons, ligaments, or cartilage.  Someone will want him for more than $4M.
The Bulls couldn't guarantee Jordan a title, yet he did it. KG has made 300 million, more than anyone, including Shaq.
In your opinion, he wouldn't take a pay cut of that magnitude, in my opinion, he would. If he doesn't play for the Celtics, he is retiring. Simple as that.
Our chances of winning a title next year rest solely on KG's shoulders. (Or pockets). If he takes under 8 million, we have a shot. If he doesn't and wants to get paid 10-15 million then fine, I'll still have him as a mentor for our young core because that alone is priceless. But KG wants a ring. I think KG values a ring more than an extra 4-5 million at this point in his career and life.
As a poster on another site stated/asked...
Is a ring worth 10 million dollars to Kevin Garnett? Probably.
Is a non guaranteed, legitimate shot at a ring worth 5 million dollars to a man that loves basketball and the Celtics as much as KG? Very probable.

Jeff Green is a backup small forward coming off major heart surgery. He was FORCED to sit out for a full season, and you think he'll get paid more than he was getting paid before he went out?
Using your logic we'll definitely be getting Dwight Howard this offseason. Deron Williams playing 2 guard next to Rondo while we're at it.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Let's play a game called "Split up the Cap Space"
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2012, 10:28:22 AM »

Offline mctyson

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The Bulls couldn't guarantee Jordan a title, yet he did it.

Exactly when did Jordan take a 75% paycut to stay with the Bulls?  http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

1985-86   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $630,000
1987-88   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $845,000
1988-89   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $2,000,000
1990-91   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $2,500,000
1991-92   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $3,250,000
1992-93   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $4,000,000
1993-94   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $4,000,000
1994-95   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $3,850,000
1995-96   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $3,850,000
1996-97   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $30,140,000
1997-98   Chicago Bulls   NBA   $33,140,000

KG has made 300 million, more than anyone, including Shaq.
In your opinion, he wouldn't take a pay cut of that magnitude, in my opinion, he would. If he doesn't play for the Celtics, he is retiring. Simple as that.

I don't disagree that KG would rather retire than play for another team besides Boston.  What I am disagreeing with is your logical connection that this means he will play for Boston at whatever price you would like to pay him.  KG could command $15M+ on the market this off season.  Someone will pay him that.  He is a professional athlete who has made max money his entire adult life and is still playing at an All-Star level.  He is on record as not being a fan of NBA ownership.  I don't know of one example of a NBA All Star making $20M one year, playing like an MVP, then "taking one for the team" with a 75% pay cut. 

Our chances of winning a title next year rest solely on KG's shoulders. (Or pockets). If he takes under 8 million, we have a shot. If he doesn't and wants to get paid 10-15 million then fine, I'll still have him as a mentor for our young core because that alone is priceless. But KG wants a ring. I think KG values a ring more than an extra 4-5 million at this point in his career and life.

I don't disagree with much of this, but let me ask you a question:  why didn't KG (or Pierce, or Ray) take these "hometown discounts" during their last contract negotiations?  I mean, if saving us money will allow the C's to sign better players and give them a chance at a ring, and getting a ring is all these guys care about, why don't these athletes take pay cuts all the time?  You know the answer to that...

Further, if all he cares about is a ring, why not play for another team that has just as good a shot if not a better one, that offers him more money?  I bet he gets an offer like that.

As a poster on another site stated/asked...
Is a ring worth 10 million dollars to Kevin Garnett? Probably.
Is a non guaranteed, legitimate shot at a ring worth 5 million dollars to a man that loves basketball and the Celtics as much as KG? Very probable.

These are all speculative opinions on your part, you are entitled to that.

Jeff Green is a backup small forward coming off major heart surgery. He was FORCED to sit out for a full season, and you think he'll get paid more than he was getting paid before he went out?

Danny offered him a $9M a year 1-year deal last off-season.  That offer was based on Jeff Green's talent as a basketball player.  If he can run and jump just this summer just as well as he could last summer, and he is 100% cleared medically, I don't see why he wouldnt' be worth the same amount.  I don't think he'll get that, but he certainly will get at least $6M.  That is a 33% pay cut, and again he did not tear any ligaments, tendons, or destroy his legs.  We have no reason to believe that next year Jeff Green will not be everything he was last year with OKC.[/quote]

Using your logic we'll definitely be getting Dwight Howard this offseason. Deron Williams playing 2 guard next to Rondo while we're at it.

I'm not sure where this came from.  But just to clarify the confusion: no, the Celtics will not be getting either of those players.

Re: Let's play a game called "Split up the Cap Space"
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2012, 11:35:28 AM »

Offline FreeGreen

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Assumption 1:  Cap is 58 million.
Assumption 2:  $33m committed to the following
  Pierce (16.8m)
  Rondo (11m)
  Bradley (1.6m)
  J. Johnson (1m)
  21st pick (1.3m)   
  22nd pick (1.3m) [Andrew Nicholson]

Act 1:  Resign KG (10m), Bass (5m), and Steimsma (1m)
Act 2:  Trade Jeff Green (9m) + 21st pick (1.3m) and J.J. Johnson (1m) to Atlanta for Josh Smith (13.2m). 
(I'm not sure how the trade rights of Jeff Green work ... is he considered a Free Agent or Boston's Free Agent?  This also assumes he is willing to go to Atlanta.  Otherwise Danny needs to wait until Dec 15th to do this deal.)
Act 3:  Offer Ray full Min Level Exemption (he'll turn it down).  Resign Pietrus using Min Level Exemption (3m)
Act 4:  Offer Dooling / Wilcox / Quis / Sasha / Hollins Vet Min.

Roster:
Rondo
Bradley / Dooling
Pierce / Pietrus
J. Smith / Bass / Nicholson
Garnett / Stiemsa

Mix and Match with KG / Smith / Bass ... KG gets 30 min, Smith gets 36, Bass gets 30.  (Can even give Smith some burn at 3.)  Stiemsa fills in situationally.

Rondo 38 min, Bradley 38 min, Dooling 10 min, Pietrus 20 min
Pierce 34 min, Nicholson 4 min.

Re: Let's play a game called "Split up the Cap Space"
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2012, 01:01:06 PM »

LEHGOCELTICS

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Read an intriguing article about KG pondering retirement today, and according to Blakely:

Quote
“I think he retires, I think Kevin Garnett, he’s done all you can expect him to do. If he does decide come back, I he’s not going to make that decision quickly. Kevin, I think he’s looking for a situation where he is part of the solution but he is not THE solution. I think Kevin is at a point, you look at guys who have been in the league as long as he has, they’re not expected to play 30-35 minutes a night, and be the defensive anchor, and be the only guy who can get buckets down in the post.”

And Sam Cassell reinforced this notion that KG would either return to the Celtics or retire when he said this:

Quote
Garnett’s trusted friend Sam Cassell said KG was still talking about retiring as recently as 10 days ago, but Cassell was trying to persuade him otherwise. Cassel’s advice: Play as long as you can.

“KG is a loyal guy,” Cassell said. “I can’t see him playing for anyone else except Doc at this point.”

So following up Blakely's comment, I think it's safe to say that KG's retirement hinges on two things:

1. Minutes allocated to him per game
2. The presence of another defensive-minded stopper in the pain t and another scorer in the paint

As these playoffs have so transparently showed, KG was a phenomenal defensive anchor, but he was the ONLY defensive anchor. Brandon Bass does not address this need going forward. Yeah, I'd love to keep the dude, but if he demands an upwards of over 5 million, I'd say walk on him. He's too undersized and not as defensively-adept as we need a KG-pairing to be. So dissecting KG's likely demands for smaller minutes further, it means that he wants to have a role similar to that of Tim Duncan's. So to give KG this defensive pairing, I think we have a couple options, in no order of any sort.

1. Josh Smith
2. Roy Hibbert
3. Javale McGee

Those guys would add the youth and athleticism that the Celtics front court sorely lacked. To land Josh Smith, I'd say the best way to do this while keeping our cap room still viable is by packaging Pierce in an offer. Call me callous, but I think it's time for our captain to go. He simply didn't have the legs to match the speed and agility of more agile forwards that he had to guard in the post-season, like Iguodala and James, and those guys aren't going anywhere. This issue becomes even more glaring if the Celtics could potentially make a return to the Finals, where someone would have to guard Durant for years and years to come. But in the best scenario, we would only be able to pick up one, so with that in mind, here are players that could further mitigate KG's minutes.

1. Kenyon Martin
2. Ivan Johnson
3. Reggie Evans
4. Hasheem Thabeet

Aside from the "bust" in Thabeet, these guys aren't the youngest guys out there, but they bring rebounding and toughness that the Celtics missed this postseason. Thabeet could also grow and realize this potential under the tutelage of a defensive-great in KG.

Now, given that we can nab at least one guy from each of the lists above, KG could most likely return for somewhere around 6-9 million. After resigning Stiemsma and getting some bigs in the draft, I think our frontcourt and size issue that have plagued us for so long will be finally resolved. Keeping in mind that the Lakers will probably be making some off-season changes and Howard will go to some contender, and these size upgrades just seem to be the biggest priority.

Now, on to the back court issues.

I would like to start off by letting Ray Allen walk. The man clearly wants to stay in the league a couple more years, and logical sense says that he's not staying for cheap. Walk.

What we need are scorers to build around Rondo. Yes, after the all-star break, the Celtics had the most stifling defense in the league, putting on numbers to challenge the record books. But we were one of the worst in the league in offensive production. Couple this with the fact that our backcourt was excruciatingly slow to guard opposing guards, who seem to be getting faster and more explosive each year, it's time we brought some young scorers in. If Pierce can be traded for the aforementioned Josh Smith, then we would have enough cap-room to sign a budding offensive machine like Eric Gordon, but stealing Hornet's cornerstone for the future seems highly implausible. So what's the next best option?

Lou Williams. He's opting out of his deal with the Sixers for more money, and I think it would be worth it to sign him for 6-7 million per year going forward. The dude is still only 25, and he's proven time and time again he's a clutch scorer, able to create his own shot at will. In this scenario, we could start AB and bring Lou off the bench in a similar 6th man role that he's made a name off of with the Sixers. I think Dooling and Pietrus have done a good enough job to warrant a return in green next season, given that they dont require more than 2 million each going into the future. Now, onto the Jeff Green issue, I think he could be had for 4-6 million. The guy is coming off a serious medical injury, and for some of you guys who have previously stated that he would make more than what he was making pre-injury, that's just ludicrous. He's not going to command more than what he was getting before the injury. If Pierce is traded/amnestied, then we need to start Green. Again, trading Pierce seems to make a lot of sense because going back to Jeff Green's first season with the Celtics, he didn't mesh well with the team. He was uncomfortable in his minutes decline, and giving him the minutes, and hence the confidence to become that 15-18 ppg scorer is a must in order to keep developing this once-budding starter for OKC.

So this could potentially shape out to be a roster like this:

Starting Five:
PG: Rajon Rondo
SG: Avery Bradley
SF: Jeff Green
PF: Josh Smith
C: Kevin Garnett

Reserves:
PG: Keyon Dooling
SG: Lou Williams
SF: Mickael Pietrus
PF: Reggie Evans/Ivan Johnson/ Royce White/ JJJ
C: Kenyon Martin/Greg Stiemsma/Fab Melo (subject to change depending on draft)/Thabeeet

Now, given Pierce can be amnestied or traded, and given the fact that we hold the bird rights to Jeff Green, this could well be all done under the cap space. What do you guys think?



Re: Let's play a game called "Split up the Cap Space"
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2012, 05:18:48 PM »

Offline ptroger

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If you're building for the future here without completely blowing it up, I think you:

1) Keep the two draft picks this year.
2) Hold on to Moore and Johnson (no training camp + no practice since March = we really have no idea what they can provide)
3) Sign one quality free agent to help in the front court area.
4) Surround these young guys with high character professionals, who are interested in mentoring as well as contending for the next couple of years.
5) Sign Jeff Green to a short term deal.
6) Finally, if you aren't blowing it up, you have to sign KG. If he was really considering retirement this year, I think you could probably get him for a one year deal.

I think it's obvious that Ray is a goner, but I do think that this current group can contend IF they can get a strong bench that allows KG and Pierce to rest more, a la the Spurs.

We absolutely have to find someone who can rebound and defend the rim when KG goes out. I know opinions vary on this guy, but I think Javale McGee would thrive in Boston. Strong organizations can take fringe lunatics like McGee and mold them into strong teammates (see Stephen Jackson with the Spurs). Maturity issues aside, can you imagine having someone who can go up and get the ball when Rondo penetrates and has help defenders collapse on him? Boston would become lob city. Also, he really defends the rim well and that's got to be a huge priority for us.

Along those same lines, isn't Marcus Camby an UFA? He's old as dirt, but would provide solid defense and would take a league min contract. Not sure if I'd rather have him or Steamer...

Here's your roster:

Paul Pierce: 16.8
Rondo: 11
Bradley: 1.3
KG: 10
McGee: 10
Green: 5
JuJuan Johnson: 1
Andrew Nicholson: 1.3
Evan Fournier: 1.3
Billups: 3
Pietrus: 850,000
Steamer: 850,000
Moore: 750,000
Scott Machado: 500,000

Something along those lines...