Would you give up the cap space for a lottery pick?

[CFAN38]

I could really see NO wanting to dump Okafors 2 year deal, they want a cheap young roster to try to sell to a new owner he is neither of those.

KG + avery (maybe throw in the worse on our or clips pick)

 for

Okafor + Ariva + there 1st

[bfrombleacher]

I'll really hate seeing Ray go, especially since he's one of the few players who are currently producing, but what about Ray + JO for Joe Johnson? They'll give up their first pick for sure since the contract is horrendous but we'll get the wing scorer we need.

Edit: Are there any multi year 5 mil bad contracts out there? Getting rid of JO alone would be amazing and getting a pick out of it would be complete win. Sure we'd be without a center but Doc plays JO far, far, far too much anyway.

[CFAN38]

How would they have been brought up in a winning atmosphere?  I can think of little worse than extending this strategy of losing by playing decrepit stars while the rookies watch.  You'd really have Danny give up the ability to sign top free agents for that?

2013 season

Okafor
Bass
Pierce
Ray
Rondo

or
Bass
Lewis
Pierce
Ray
Rondo

both of these lineups (obviously the first one is better) are capable of being playoff teams. With a trade that nets us say the 5th pick this year we would have a player like kidd-gilcrest of harison barnes as our 6th man. We would then have an elite talent to pair with rondo and his first season wont be a lottery bomb.

[lepoooo]

I could really see NO wanting to dump Okafors 2 year deal, they want a cheap young roster to try to sell to a new owner he is neither of those.

KG + avery (maybe throw in the worse on our or clips pick)

 for

Okafor + Ariva + there 1st

Most of you ppl are overevaluating KG's value. Even if he only has 1 year left, his contract is not that interesting.

They could give up Okafor and a filler, + maybe a 2nd round pick, but don't expect them to give you their 1st pick. Are you out of yr mind?

They are gonna pick top 5, probably top 3. Who would be dumb enough to waste such a high pick to dump Okafor's contract (which is not that bad). The Hornets are in rebuilding mode, they won't give away their best asset for almost nothing. They are probably way under the cap, they don't need to dump Okafor's salary; they need young players and picks.

[lepoooo]

How would they have been brought up in a winning atmosphere?  I can think of little worse than extending this strategy of losing by playing decrepit stars while the rookies watch.  You'd really have Danny give up the ability to sign top free agents for that?

2013 season

Okafor
Bass
Pierce
Ray
Rondo

or
Bass
Lewis
Pierce
Ray
Rondo

both of these lineups (obviously the first one is better) are capable of being playoff teams. With a trade that nets us say the 5th pick this year we would have a player like kidd-gilcrest of harison barnes as our 6th man. We would then have an elite talent to pair with rondo and his first season wont be a lottery bomb.

When you are in rebuilding mode, you don't want to field a team "capable of being a PO team". You want a bad team, a nightmare team, a team that sucks. The more you suck, the higher you pick. If you are aiming at 1) Rebuilding and 2) Making the PO nonetheless, you are bound to become one of those middle-of-the-pack team which cannot win and cannot loose enough to win.

You better get used to the idea that the C's are gonna suck for years. At least 3 years before they can think about the PO again. You need 2 or 3 drafts to rebuild. I don't want the Celtics to become the Bucks 2.0.

Btw, I think you are overrating Ray, Pierce and Bass.

[CFAN38]

When you are in rebuilding mode, you don't want to field a team "capable of being a PO team". You want a bad team, a nightmare team, a team that sucks

I totally disagree, with rondo already on this roster we have one piece for the future. If we can pull of a miracle and swing an expiring contract plus even our 2 firsts for a bad 2 year contract and a lottery first then with another stroke of luck that lottery first becomes piece #2. After pierce's and our 2 yr bad contract are off the books we could potentially have a middle of his carrier vet allstar (rondo) and a verge of being an all-star young player (barnes,kidd-gilcrest) and a team that hasn't been in the league basement for 3 years. This is an attractive option for a big time free agent. Granted there has to be some good management (drafting),good player development, and a bit of luck.

There are alot of teams that tank to the bottom and never make it back out of the hole. You end up with talented players who don't know what it takes to win. An elite franchise transitions doesn't fall of the face of the map. The bulls tried the dive bomb strategy and they burned out pretty bad. Remember eddie curry and tyson chandler years.

[wdleehi]

Probably.  It depends on how many years were left on the deal we're acquiring.  If there's one year left, it's a no brainer.  Two years, and it becomes tricky.  Three, I'd pass unless we're talking about a top five pick.

Washington is looking like a team who will produce a top 5 pick. They might wanna unload a big 6'11'' 260 lbs talented but ultra lazy tumor for some expirings. Will that be an example of this, sir Roy?

I don't think the Wizards would package their #1 to get teams to take Blatche; I think their fan base would revolt.  Blatche has a ton of talent, and is signed to a reasonable (if long term) deal.  He's a headcase and a tumor, but he's got ability.

That said, if the trade on the table was something like:

Blatche + Rashard + #1

for

KG + Wilcox (to make salaries match)

... then yes, I think we have to do that, as much as I hate Blatche.

As long as the Celtics either waive Blatche or trade him anything.


He is the last player I would want as a the example of an NBA player for the rookies the Celtics would be bringing in.


Lewis on the other hand, is fine in that role.

[lepoooo]

I totally disagree, with rondo already on this roster we have one piece for the future. If we can pull of a miracle and swing an expiring contract plus even our 2 firsts for a bad 2 year contract and a lottery first then with another stroke of luck that lottery first becomes piece #2.

You won't find a lotery pick for one of the expiring contract the team has on its books.

After pierce's and our 2 yr bad contract are off the books we could potentially have a middle of his carrier vet allstar (rondo) and a verge of being an all-star young player (barnes,kidd-gilcrest) and a team that hasn't been in the league basement for 3 years.

If you wait for the Pierce's deal to come off the books, it means 3 years from now. I'd rather see the team spend those 3 years in the lotery than fighting for a weak seed in the east and some early PO exits.

This is an attractive option for a big time free agent. Granted there has to be some good management (drafting),good player development, and a bit of luck.

Your scenario is not very different from mine. I think you are over optimistic about the post-big 3 Celtics. Next year, the team is not going to win 40 games. 30 is more realistic. KG is probably gonna retire. Allen may be traded by then (even Pierce!...). It means young players without experience.

The team is not gonna maintain itself in the middle of the pack in the east just because you have a Rondo+Pierce duo. They are gonna sink quick, granted Danny doesn't overpay a RFA next summer.

Your scenario relies on pure luck. If they are lucky, they draft the new Duncan in next June and they are gonna dominate for 15 years. Possible? Yep. Likely? No.

The most probable scenario is for them to be in the lotery for 2 or 3 years. There is no shame in that. That's the way you rebuild a team. You don't find a Duncan or a Kobe in the draft every year. It takes time to develop players. If you're lucky, you can find the right player and lure a good FA or make a trade happen.

In the meantime, they better be OK with being a bad team. It's always all about luck when you start rebulding, but luck might come next june or 3 years from now. Who knows.

EDIT: my mistake, I thought you were talking expiring contract for a lottery pick. They could probably find a top 10 pick with their 2 picks and their expiring contratcs, you're right. But they might as well have a top 10 pick of their own...

[PosImpos]

Probably.  It depends on how many years were left on the deal we're acquiring.  If there's one year left, it's a no brainer.  Two years, and it becomes tricky.  Three, I'd pass unless we're talking about a top five pick.

Washington is looking like a team who will produce a top 5 pick. They might wanna unload a big 6'11'' 260 lbs talented but ultra lazy tumor for some expirings. Will that be an example of this, sir Roy?

I don't think the Wizards would package their #1 to get teams to take Blatche; I think their fan base would revolt.  Blatche has a ton of talent, and is signed to a reasonable (if long term) deal.  He's a headcase and a tumor, but he's got ability.

That said, if the trade on the table was something like:

Blatche + Rashard + #1

for

KG + Wilcox (to make salaries match)

... then yes, I think we have to do that, as much as I hate Blatche.

yeah, sign me up for that trade.

[LooseCannon]

Edit: Are there any multi year 5 mil bad contracts out there? Getting rid of JO alone would be amazing and getting a pick out of it would be complete win. Sure we'd be without a center but Doc plays JO far, far, far too much anyway.

Well, if you just want to get rid of JO and don't care about getting a pick in return, you can offer him straight up to the Lakers for Metta World Peace, to the Heat for Mike Miller, to the Kings for Francisco Garcia, to the Raptors for Linas Kleiza, or to the T-Wolves for Nikola Pekovic or Brad Miller.

I don't think I would make any of those trades.

[BballTim]

Yes, absolutely.  The free agent market this summer is pretty weak, so there's not much I'd want the team to use that cap space on, anyway.  

As long as we're not taking on an absolutely crippling contract, it makes sense to essentially "rent" the cap space with an overpaid or significantly declined player for a couple years if it means getting a lottery pick in this draft.

After all, when we enter rebuilding, our goal will be to tank for as high a pick as possible each year while developing the young talent we've got.  therefore, we're going to have to fill our roster with overpaid role players and veterans at the end of their deals anyhow due to the minimum salary threshold.


Each of the trades you propose is interesting (except for perhaps the Charlie V / Gordon one . . . really would rather not touch those guys).  That Golden State one would be great if it weren't for the fact that the Jazz get it if the Warriors don't get a top 7 spot.

  Yeah, CV and Gordon should be worth a 1st rounder each. Blech.

[erisred]

The lottery is a crap shoot, a total crap shoot! And with Stern as "the house" it's a rigged crap game. 

Perhaps a smarter strategy would be to let other teams roll the dice and for the C's to steal their winner away from them. Although the FA market next year is shallow, there are quite a few very interesting RFA's coming on the market in 12 and 13. Many will resign with their original teams, but some won't. With cap space, the C's can tender max/near max offers to a series of RFA's attempting to "cherry pick" young stars off of cheap teams. Same thing with cap space trades. That strategy has worked before, it might work again.

OTOH, acquiring "chips" through the draft that you can combine in a trade for an established star has also worked...see the Big 3 for an example. This year's and next year's draft will (or should) be good ones. Getting as many picks the next two years as possible is a good idea, too. Just don't expect the picks to be top 10...unless *we* are that bad.

Finally, about Paul Pierce and a bad C's team. He won't stay for a rebuild, I feel sure of that. He'll retire or ask for a trade...and Danny will give it to him. He *might* stay for a reload (one year with *really* high expectations on the other end), but I doubt it.

[LooseCannon]

The lottery is a crap shoot, a total crap shoot! And with Stern as "the house" it's a rigged crap game. 

If the lottery is a crap shoot, then no GM can be criticized for a series of draft busts with high lottery picks.

[bfrombleacher]

Edit: Are there any multi year 5 mil bad contracts out there? Getting rid of JO alone would be amazing and getting a pick out of it would be complete win. Sure we'd be without a center but Doc plays JO far, far, far too much anyway.

Well, if you just want to get rid of JO and don't care about getting a pick in return, you can offer him straight up to the Lakers for Metta World Peace, to the Heat for Mike Miller, to the Kings for Francisco Garcia, to the Raptors for Linas Kleiza, or to the T-Wolves for Nikola Pekovic or Brad Miller.

I don't think I would make any of those trades.

For sure I'd want a pick out of it. JO for Mike Miller and their first? Apart from the Lakers only the Heat really want the cap space. But we'd be giving them a center... Really want more picks though...