Over simplification in debunking, "The game 7 myth"

[LarBrd33]

I agree we probably would have won game 7 with Perk.  We got killed on rebounds.   Celtic fans who are upset about the Perk trade keep bringing this up.  It's important to note that we also would have won game 7 with Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, Krstic, Troy Murphy and Jeff Green.

[Celtics4ever]

Perks 7 or 8 boards would not have made up for the FTA the Lakers got in the fourth more than us the whole game.....

[Mike-Dub]

I do not recall these events.

Guess they've been blacked out from my memory.

Yes what is this exactly that CarHole is talking about?  TP Donoghus.

[Neurotic Guy]

I agree we probably would have won game 7 with Perk.  We got killed on rebounds.   Celtic fans who are upset about the Perk trade keep bringing this up.  It's important to note that we also would have won game 7 with Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, Krstic, Troy Murphy and Jeff Green.

This was going to be my point, or close to it.  TP.    The Lakers won fair and square -- injuries are part of the game.   But, as Game 7 applies to Perk's value to this team, I think that any of about 20 mediocre NBA centers (including Krstic, Shaq, JO) could have spelled Sheed for 15 minutes to keep his legs, his wind, preserve his back, and take us to the win.

[Larry for 3]

People just keep glossing over the real reason the Celtics lost game 7.  Paul Pierce 5 for 15 shooting,  Ray Allen 3 for 14 shooting.  People ar letting these 2, espically Pierce who had an awful game 7 ( giving up that Artest 3 at the end was reprehensible, make him drive please ) for someone so regarded in Celtic history.  That performance kept Pierce out of my all time Celtic top 5.  I cant in good faith put him over Kevin Mchale after that--- maybe he redeems himself this year. He was bad for most of that series to.

[Jon]

Yes.  Had we had Perk, we would've won Game 7. 

However, if we had had another player who could put the ball in the basket off the bench--like Jeff Green---we also wouldn't have had to overwork PP and Ray throughout the entire playoffs and they likely wouldn't have shot so poorly. 

And had we had any other options at the 4/5 spots besides overplaying Rasheed and/or playing Shelden Williams or Brian Scalabrine, we also would've won.  And Danny has solved that too as we now face the very real possibility that Troy Murphy or Jermaine O'Neal might be sitting on the inactive list, giving us an absolute abundance of big men in case someone does go down. 

So yes, you're right, Kendrick would've won #18 for us, but there were other ways it could've happened too.  It's just last year we once again had poor depth, particularly at the wing.  Not this year. 

[Bankshot]

I think that one over looked reason to why the Celtics lost Game 7 was minutes played by the starters. As soon as those minutes for our guys started going over 40 minutes we were in trouble and it showed because toward the end of the game they had lost there legs and Lakers were still going. Kobe was still use to playing 40 plus.

Overall it was not THE reason but I do see it as one of the reasons. Garnett played 38 minutes, Paul played 46 minutes, Rondo played 45 and Ray played 45. Wallace played 36 and the only member of the bench who saw the floor for a significant amount of time was BBD at 21 minutes. Playing those kind of minutes is not our game and I had a bad feeling the whole game cause both benches were literally invisible and that played into the hands of the Lakers.

Rebounds was one of the factors and so was the refs (to a lesser degree though) and the points the op said but this was over looked I believe. You could say that players should be in shape to play those kind of minutes but we weren't. We had a big lead at one point, so I would have thought that Doc would sit some of the older guys, yeah it's "Game 7" but you need to have energy to play still towards the end of the game. I don't know, just a thought, or an observation really.  

Thank you!  I've been saying this since last year.  I blame the loss on Doc.  Phil played his bench and Doc didn't.  After all the hype Tony got by playing great defense on Kobe, then for some inexplicable reason, Doc lets Ray guard Kobe practically the whole game and didn't use Tony to spell him.  Tony might have also scored some points when no one else could because all he does is drive to the basket and get to the line.  He also played rondo too much and only played Nate 4 minutes, the guy that was brought in to provide offense didn't get minutes when the Celtics struggled to score.  I thought Doc choked big time in game 7.

The big 3 plus Rondo were to blame also. KG with 3 rebounds, Paul playing poorly and Ray not shooting well, Rondo bricking free throws at an alarming rate.  

The Celtics were up 13 points (without Perk) and still could have overcome the loss of Perk, the lopsided rebounding and officiating if Doc didn't have he head up his arse!

We didn't lose because of no Perk, we lost because KG was on one leg and couldn't rebound and Doc got outcoached.

[Jon]

I think that one over looked reason to why the Celtics lost Game 7 was minutes played by the starters. As soon as those minutes for our guys started going over 40 minutes we were in trouble and it showed because toward the end of the game they had lost there legs and Lakers were still going. Kobe was still use to playing 40 plus.

Overall it was not THE reason but I do see it as one of the reasons. Garnett played 38 minutes, Paul played 46 minutes, Rondo played 45 and Ray played 45. Wallace played 36 and the only member of the bench who saw the floor for a significant amount of time was BBD at 21 minutes. Playing those kind of minutes is not our game and I had a bad feeling the whole game cause both benches were literally invisible and that played into the hands of the Lakers.

Rebounds was one of the factors and so was the refs (to a lesser degree though) and the points the op said but this was over looked I believe. You could say that players should be in shape to play those kind of minutes but we weren't. We had a big lead at one point, so I would have thought that Doc would sit some of the older guys, yeah it's "Game 7" but you need to have energy to play still towards the end of the game. I don't know, just a thought, or an observation really.  

Thank you!  I've been saying this since last year.  I blame the loss on Doc.  Phil played his bench and Doc didn't.  After all the hype Tony got by playing great defense on Kobe, then for some inexplicable reason, Doc lets Ray guard Kobe practically the whole game and didn't use Tony to spell him.  Tony might have also scored some points when no one else could because all he does is drive to the basket and get to the line.  He also played rondo too much and only played Nate 4 minutes, the guy that was brought in to provide offense didn't get minutes when the Celtics struggled to score.  I thought Doc choked big time in game 7.

The big 3 plus Rondo were to blame also. KG with 3 rebounds, Paul playing poorly and Ray not shooting well, Rondo bricking free throws at an alarming rate.  

The Celtics were up 13 points (without Perk) and still could have overcome the loss of Perk, the lopsided rebounding and officiating if Doc didn't have he head up his arse!

We didn't lose because of no Perk, we lost because KG was on one leg and couldn't rebound and Doc got outcoached.

Though Doc had a much worse bench last year, particularly after Perk went out. 

This year, Doc's fault or not, the C's have a much better bench to work with.  Jeff Green is the best bench player the C's have had in 20 years, West is an improvement over Nate, and we're so deep at the 4/5 that we could see guys who started for teams last year on our inactive list. 

[ManUp]

Aside from blaming the refs for keeping our bigs in foul trouble with the don't touch Gasol rule. There are several reason why we lost. Rondo was scared to drive the ball because he didn't want to get fouled and he wasn't shooting efficiently from the floor either. Ray Allen sucked in every game with the exception of game 2. Kevin Garnett wasn't fully healthy and couldn't do anything at a high level consistently. Ray and Rondo contributed to our bad offense and KG's knee contributed to the inability to rebound and defend. When our offense died it was all on our defense, but it's hard to defend down the stretch when all of your bigs are in foul trouble and you can't be physical.

There's plenty of blame to go around for the loss. You can choose to blame Ray for being ice cold throughout the series with the exception of game 2. You can blame Rondo for not playing aggressively and his disgustingly awful free-throw shooting. You can blame KG for not rebounding the ball better.

I choose to blame the refs, no i'm not being sarcastic I really do. Even after saying all that I feel like in that series they didn't allow us to defend the Lakers bigs and they really killed us with ticky tack fouls that piled up to kill us down the stretch. Any non-Laker fan/non-Celtic hater who watched that series objectively could see the bs they were pulling.

[RockinRyA]

The celtics were obviously tired in game 7. Perk wouldve helped, yes, esp since sheed was really done in the 4th quarter. He could help with rebounding, but who is to say Perk wouldve gotten all those rebounds instead of the Fakers? Perk defended Bynum really well, Gasol not so much. In fact there were times I wanted Doc to take out Perk (and KG as well) in favor of Sheed because how effective sheed was compared to Perk.

In 2008 KG did a decent job on Odom, but it was Posey who shut him down. Our best lineup against them in 2008 was KG at 5, Posey at 4, PP at 3, Ray at 2 and Eddie or Rondo at 1 because with Perk and Rondo playing together, the fakers just leave Perk and Rondo alone and help against the Big three.

Reality is, the Celtics need a center who is a good defender (perk,sheed), good rebounder (perk and murphy) and isn't a liability in offense (sheed, murphy, krstic). But there's no way to get either Dwight Howard or Andrew Bogut.

[aporel#18]

There's no simple way to explain what happened last june.

For starters, if KG doesn't hurt his knee in the 2008-2009, and is reasonably healthy, the Celtics have all the numbers to win in 2009 AND in 2010. Then, we all need to remember the Orlando series in last year's ECF. When the Captain allegedly twitted about the sweep and suddenly the refs started to work against the Celtics, extending the series. Those extra games were horrid, Sheed hurt his back, Baby and Marquis got concussions, and KG's knee suffered extra wear... aside from the elbowing. Ray, Pierce and Rondo played a lot of extra minutes also, so it's not crazy to say that if Celtics win ECF's game 4, things would have been different.

Then, the Finals. Ray was cold in game 1, superb in game 2, and he was hurt in game 3, courtesy of Artest, and after that he was never consistent again. We all know what happened to Perk, courtesy of bad luck, Co-b and Bynum. BBD played hurt, and of course he can't defend Gasol and Bynum, but if healthy he could have done better. Pierce was also tired, and Doc didn't trust in TA, so he gets his share of criticism. Rondo and him didn't attack the basket as they used to do during the playoffs, and that's because the punishment they got from both the refs and the Magic in the ECF. Sheed was hurt since the ECF, and was forced to play too many minutes in game 7, and then his back said it's over. There were a lot of things that went wrong, and if any of them/some of them went the other way, the Celtics win.

So we'd be talking about #20 if KG is healthy and doesn't blow his knee in the title defending season.

We'd be talking about #19 if:

 a) the Orlando series is officiated rightfully AND the Celtics play hard and focused in game 4 of the ECF.
 
 b) once the Finals started without sweeping the Magic, if any of these things happen:

 - Perk doesn't get hurt in game 6.
 - Ray doesn't get hurt in game 3 and makes his usual numbers.
 - The refs make the calls on both sides.
 - Rondo learns how to make free throws.
 - BBD grows 3-4 inches.
 - Fisher and Artest don't make those circus shots.
 - Doc trusts his bench.

but the most important thing is, we ARE talking about #18, and as painful as last june's defeat was, Danny has adressed the weak points of the team. The "experts" can say everything they want, they can compare 2008 finals to 2010 finals, but they know that even with a healthy Bynum (whatever that means... he's never 100% healthy), the Celtics destroy the Lakers in 2008, while in 2010 everything was falling in Lakers direction to get a hardworked win. They won, and that's what really counts, but this year things will be different, and if they meet again in the Finals, healthy KG means domination of the fakers.

Go Celtics!!

[ballin]

23 offensive rebounds (vs 32 defensive rebounds by the Celtics)


23 extra offensive plays.  Win by 4. 



The Celtics defense was good enough except for ending possessions. 

/end of thread.

//we gave up too many rebounds, mostly because we had BBD in at the end of the game when we otherwise would have had in Perk. The offensive rebounds were actually a huge reason why the Lakers went to the free throw line too, so it might have even been more important than the bogus officiating. In my mind, we CLEARLY lost because Perkins was out. Watching BBD getting eaten alive also solidified my hatred of him, for what it's worth.

[harrmonica]

People just keep glossing over the real reason the Celtics lost game 7.  Paul Pierce 5 for 15 shooting,  Ray Allen 3 for 14 shooting.  People ar letting these 2, espically Pierce who had an awful game 7 ( giving up that Artest 3 at the end was reprehensible, make him drive please ) for someone so regarded in Celtic history.  That performance kept Pierce out of my all time Celtic top 5.  I cant in good faith put him over Kevin Mchale after that--- maybe he redeems himself this year. He was bad for most of that series to.

you are right about the artest point, but he was in foul trouble for a lot ofseries, which will keep you out of your flow.

[BballTim]

  When you lose a game by 4 points then literally anything that would cause you to make another shot or two, get another stop or two, force another turnover or two, or get 1-2 more rebounds is a reason you lost. Everything is a possible reason, not one particular thing.

  This is like having your car run out of gas, get a flat tire and overheat right when you come upon a bridge that a flood washed away and arguing about which of those four events is the one that made you late.