New JV verses old JV

[JBcat]

The TWolves last year were commonly referred to as the JV team of the Celtics.  We have developed I guess you could call a new JV team within our own team this year.   If you take the young players traded away in the Ray Allen and KG trades Telfair, West, Green, Gomes, and Jefferson to go against the young players aquired since the day of the Ray trade Pruitt, Giddens, Walker, BBD, and O'Byrant who do you think would win?  To be fair the old JV team has more experience now than the new one so take the quality of play of the old JV team at the time they were traded.  For example Telfair redeemed himself a little with a quality year for himself last season but at the time of the trade he went from starter at the beginning of the season with the Celts to complete afterthought and Wyc wanting to remove his nameplate from the locker room.  We could do this 2 ways actually.   We could have a hypothetical game 5 years from now after all these guys have developed.  I realize this is hard to do since with the new group we've only really seen BBD play any significant time but in the boredom of the offseason I'd like to see what people think.  I'll start off....

Center O'Bryant-Jefferson.  No contest.   At this point last year big Al was well on his way to becoming an all star.  Al would own him in the post.

Power forward BBD-Gomes.  Slight edge Gomes.  BBD should be able to handle Gomes in the post but Gomes all around game was really coming on during his last days with the Celts.  He even shot .380 from 3 point land that season.  I think this matchup is close but I think BBD would have a tough time staying with Gomes on the perimeter. 

Small forward Walker-Green.  Slight edge Walker.  The only real comparison between these 2 is that both at 1 point in their lives were projected as a top 5 talent in their class.  Even with Walker still rehabbing from his latest surgery  I think he is better all around player than Green was in his last season with us.   Green did average 10.4 PPG for us but played matador defense, low BB IQ, and I like Walker's all around game better especially rebounding and even defense as well.  If Walker was 100% right now I think it would be a bigger edge for Walker.

Shooting guard Giddens-West. Edge West.  Giddens is an older rookie so he has more experience than usual however I think West who can also play the point is a little too crafty for Giddens to handle at this point.   Giddens  probably has never been asked to defend a combo guard like West before.

Point guard Pruitt-Telfair.   Slight edge Pruitt.   This is a semi surprising pick I'm sure by some but Telfair's season with the Celtics was an offseason for him even by his small standards and his confidence was clearly shaken.   Some have compared Pruitt to a West type of player and I can certainly see that with some of the games I have seen him play.  I also think Pruitt is the better defender and better shooter than Telfair right now.   Some scouts thought Pruitt would be a top 20 pick if he came out this year and if Ainge wasn't at least semi high on him I think he would be gone by now.

Overall in this hypothetical game Jefferson is too much for this new JV team and wins the game.  For the new JV team I can see Walker handling Green easily in the post and at the end of the game Green challenges Walker to a dunk contest only to see Giddens jumping in and stealing the show in a 3 man contest

If this game was played 5 years from now I think it's a little bit of a different story.  I think Clifford Ray can turn PO into at least a serviceable backup C and it will help being around bigs like KG, Perk, and Powe who work very hard.  The matchup will still be 1 sided against Jefferson but not as much.  Where I think the big difference is will be the improvement of Walker and Giddens.  If not both at least 1 one of these guys will be a starter in this league and they both have star potential.  By all accounts these guys work hard and now have their head on straight especially Walker who graduated HS early and I can't recall any negative things said about him.  I would be very surprised if they don't surpass Green whose work ethic always seemed to be in question and has a poor BB IQ  (never really an Ainge guy just so happens he fell in the draft and DA took a chance on him).  However Green is still young enough to turn everything around. I don't think the other matchups change that much.  In the end I think the new JV team wins because of Walker and Giddens improvement. 

[Roy Hobbs]

I think the "old Celts" would kill the new guys.  I think you're being overly generous towards BBD when you only rate him slightly behind Gomes; Gomes has proven himself to be a consistent, solid NBA rotation player, whereas BBD has been extremely inconsistent.  Also, after the year he had last year, I think Telfair has to be rated ahead of Pruitt, who has proven exactly nothing.

I'd rate it:

Big Al >> POB
Gomes > BBD
Green = Walker
Delonte > Giddens
Telfair > Pruitt

That could change, of course, after some of the current young guys develop, but right now, I think the established guys have a clear advantage.

(Also, as bad as Gerald is, I can't say a second round pick who has never played an NBA game is clearly better than him.)

[BigAlTheFuture]

I agree with RH. The news guys wouldn't stand a chance. Your underrating the old guys. Big Al is a future all-star and Gomes, West, and Telfair are all good role players for any team. We all know Green stinks but wait until Walker plays an NBA game before ranking him ahead of GG.

A. Jefferson vs POB - huge edge to Big Al.
Gomes vs BBD - big edge to Gomes
Green vs Walker - slight edge to Green. Although, I would rather have Walker on my team than Gerald Green.
West vs Giddens - edge to West. West was a key piece to the Cav's playoff run last year.
Telfair vs Pruitt - edge to Telfair. Like RH said, Pruitt hasn't proven anything. Telfair on the other hand, had the best season of his career last year. Also, has a lot of potential.

[gar]

Some of the old "JV" were actually starters or saw significant minutes. If you take out Jefferson, Gomes and West and put in Kandiman, Scal and TAllen I think the results are closer than you think. Remember you are essentially comparing our present 2/3rd string to previous 1/2nd string. Not exactly fair. How about:

Kandi=POB
Scal<Powe/BBD
Green=Walker
TAllen=Giddens
Telfair>Pruitt

Looks pretty even to me, perhaps a slight edge to the more experienced "vets".

[BigAlTheFuture]

Some of the old "JV" were actually starters or saw significant minutes. If you take out Jefferson, Gomes and West and put in Kandiman, Scal and TAllen I think the results are closer than you think. Remember you are essentially comparing our present 2/3rd string to previous 1/2nd string. Not exactly fair. How about:

Kandi=POB
Scal<Powe/BBD
Green=Walker
TAllen=Giddens
Telfair>Pruitt

Looks pretty even to me, perhaps a slight edge to the more experienced "vets".

He is talking about the young players that got traded away in the Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett trades and comparing them to the young players we have on our current roster.

[JBcat]

I think the "old Celts" would kill the new guys.  I think you're being overly generous towards BBD when you only rate him slightly behind Gomes; Gomes has proven himself to be a consistent, solid NBA rotation player, whereas BBD has been extremely inconsistent.  Also, after the year he had last year, I think Telfair has to be rated ahead of Pruitt, who has proven exactly nothing.

I'd rate it:

Big Al >> POB
Gomes > BBD
Green = Walker
Delonte > Giddens
Telfair > Pruitt

That could change, of course, after some of the current young guys develop, but right now, I think the established guys have a clear advantage.

(Also, as bad as Gerald is, I can't say a second round pick who has never played an NBA game is clearly better than him.)

You missed a point I made in the beginning.  To be a little more fair and not give the old JV team an overwhelming advantage in terms of experience I'm looking at where these guys were when they were traded and not what they did last year.  Telfair did redeem himself a little last year (although partly due to playing 12 more minutes a game which I'll get into more below) at the time he was traded he went backwards in his career.

I knew the Pruitt pick would raise some eyebrows   When comparing the 2 I think Pruitt is a better if not much better outside shooter than Telfair.   Telfair left his Boston career shooting .281% (about the same last year too) from 3 point land while Pruitt shot .361% for 3's in the D league ( yes I know it's the D league but it's still the same distance).    Telfair I think is a bad defender while Pruitt at 6-4 stands a better chance on the defensive end because of his athleticism and quickness.  Telfair while considered a more true point did not have a very good assist to turnover ratio for the Celts.  Just because he is third on the depth chart on a championship ballclub does not mean Pruitt can't play.  I've seen some of his college games, even D league games to say I like his game.  In a 1 game scenario I would still pick Pruitt primarily because I think he is better defender and shooter while not all that far off from being a legit PG.  Pruitt is long for a PG and I think Telfair might have some difficulty driving past him.

I like Gomes alot as a player however consistency can almost be thrown out the window as we are looking at a 1 game situation and not who you would want for a season.  Gomes has had troubles guarding bigger PFs in the post and BBD has at least 30 to 40 pounds on him while being crafty inside.  However like I said before Gomes all around game gets the better of the matchup in the end.  If we were talking about a whole season I think Gomes is the overwhelming choice but closer for just 1 game.

It is hard to prejudge players before they player a single NBA game but it takes the fun out of it if we don't.   I don't think I'm alone out there in saying Walker would have a matchup advantage against Green for a 1 game matchup.  For one I think the experience factor is overblown here.  Green is less than 2 years older than Walker and I wouldn't exactly call Green a much more heady player.  Walker last year had 6 games with 25 points or more, averaged 6.3 rebounds which is superb for a SF in college all the while not really playing at 100% all year.  I think right now Walker is a better rebounder than Green, probably a better defensive player, and maybe just as explosive offensively.  So I would go with the slight edge to Walker for a 1 game scenario now especially thinking Green couldn't handle Walker in the post with at least 20 pounds on him.  Not saying Walker is clearly better than Green as you put it but 2 teams gave up on Green last year and he didn't exactly end his Celtics tenure with a bang.   

Jefferson will always have a huge edge on PO.  I was just saying PO has a chance to be at least a serviceable backup and improve from where he is now.   Why else would Ainge give him a 2 year deal if he didn't have at least that kind of faith in him.

For the first scenario I'd say the old team wins by 20 because they would just be feeding Jefferson all day.

5 years from now if they played this game I think it's closer because I'm still not sold Telfair can improve much more than where he is right now and 2 teams gave up on Green within 1 year last season. Combining with the fact I think Walker and Giddens  have a chance to improve substantially from where they are right now if they work hard.   

[Roy Hobbs]

You missed a point I made in the beginning.  To be a little more fair and not give the old JV team an overwhelming advantage in terms of experience I'm looking at where these guys were when they were traded and not what they did last year.  Telfair did redeem himself a little last year (although partly due to playing 12 more minutes a game which I'll get into more below) at the time he was traded he went backwards in his career.

You're right, I did overlook that point.  I don't think it would change my opinion too much, though.  At the time of the trade, here's how many games each player had started:

Big Al (68) vs. POB (0)
Gomes (93) vs. BBD (1)
Gerald (29) vs. Walker (0)
Delonte (125) vs. Giddens (0)
Telfair (86) vs. Pruitt (0)

Even more telling, here is the *minutes* each player had played:

Big Al (4432) vs. POB (218)
Gomes (3651) vs. BBD (940)
Gerald (2153) vs. Walker (0)
Delonte (5144) vs. Giddens (0)
Telfair (4549) vs. Pruitt (95)

In other words, Gerald Green had more experience on his own than the entire current lineup you're comparing.  I really think that would make a huge, huge difference. 

[JBcat]

You missed a point I made in the beginning.  To be a little more fair and not give the old JV team an overwhelming advantage in terms of experience I'm looking at where these guys were when they were traded and not what they did last year.  Telfair did redeem himself a little last year (although partly due to playing 12 more minutes a game which I'll get into more below) at the time he was traded he went backwards in his career.

You're right, I did overlook that point.  I don't think it would change my opinion too much, though.  At the time of the trade, here's how many games each player had started:

Big Al (68) vs. POB (0)
Gomes (93) vs. BBD (1)
Gerald (29) vs. Walker (0)
Delonte (125) vs. Giddens (0)
Telfair (86) vs. Pruitt (0)

Even more telling, here is the *minutes* each player had played:

Big Al (4432) vs. POB (218)
Gomes (3651) vs. BBD (940)
Gerald (2153) vs. Walker (0)
Delonte (5144) vs. Giddens (0)
Telfair (4549) vs. Pruitt (95)

In other words, Gerald Green had more experience on his own than the entire current lineup you're comparing.  I really think that would make a huge, huge difference. 

For a 1 game situation experience is slightly overblown especially comparing the ages here.  However if you want to take a look at experience BBD has more playoff experience than any player combined on this list from 1 season alone.  So Telfair has experience but in year 3 when he was with the Celtics he regressed.  In Gerald's 3rd year 2 teams wanted to get rid of him.  3 of the guys from the old team have no college experience whatsoever and the average age of the old team is about 23, 24 with Gomes being 26 pushing up the average.   3 out of the 5 new guys are 22, Giddens is 23, and Walker being 20 but has played against some of these NBA guys during the summer going back a few years. There is not much of an age gap between the old and the new and college experience has some value. There are plenty of guys with "experience" in this league that are subpar players Michael Ruffin, Smush Parker, Adonal Foyle and so on but I would never want them on my team because of their experience. 

[guava_wrench]

It is a little silly to compare these lineups now. It makes more sense to compare players who have played similar amounts in NBA games.

Clearly Jefferson proved enough in the start of his career to be rated well beyond POB.

BBD might have an advantage over Gomes as far as rookie seasons go. We can only speculate how BBD would have played on the less talented team that Gomes was on as a rookie, but being able to contribute on a great team means a lot in my book. Arguments of Gomes not getting enough PT as a rookie are moot since BBD had the same problem proving himself this year.

We can't really compare Walker to anyone since he has yet to play an NBA minute. Still, we can safely say that he can't be any worse than Gerald when it comes to being a bust.

The problem is the same for Giddens. He hasn't played a second yet, so we can't compare him to West yet. It will be very difficult for Giddens to match West's rookie season since minutes are harder to come by now.

Bassy destroys Pruitt. Pruitt's rookie season was about as insignificant as a rookie season can be without being cut or playing in Europe. Of course, Pruitt can't be a bust since the expectations are so low.

I am amazed at the expectations a few posters have for Pruitt. How many minutes has Pruitt played that weren't garbage time? Didn't he only contribute in 2 games (Portland and Philly) last season (with Rondo out)? And he was 1-6 in one of those games.

[JBcat]

It is a little silly to compare these lineups now. It makes more sense to compare players who have played similar amounts in NBA games.

Clearly Jefferson proved enough in the start of his career to be rated well beyond POB.

BBD might have an advantage over Gomes as far as rookie seasons go. We can only speculate how BBD would have played on the less talented team that Gomes was on as a rookie, but being able to contribute on a great team means a lot in my book. Arguments of Gomes not getting enough PT as a rookie are moot since BBD had the same problem proving himself this year.

We can't really compare Walker to anyone since he has yet to play an NBA minute. Still, we can safely say that he can't be any worse than Gerald when it comes to being a bust.

The problem is the same for Giddens. He hasn't played a second yet, so we can't compare him to West yet. It will be very difficult for Giddens to match West's rookie season since minutes are harder to come by now.

Bassy destroys Pruitt. Pruitt's rookie season was about as insignificant as a rookie season can be without being cut or playing in Europe. Of course, Pruitt can't be a bust since the expectations are so low.

I am amazed at the expectations a few posters have for Pruitt. How many minutes has Pruitt played that weren't garbage time? Didn't he only contribute in 2 games (Portland and Philly) last season (with Rondo out)? And he was 1-6 in one of those games.

All good points and maybe we should revisit this topic midseason or at the end of the season if we remember because it his hard to analyze and maybe a bit premature.  The last point though again with Pruitt I don't think the expectations are so low.  I think the Celtics brass think somewhat highly of him otherwise he wouldn't be holding a roster spot now along with plenty other inexperienced players.  It would have been dangerous to have 2 inexperienced players play at a position that is vital to a team that had such high aspirations last year.  Yes you can't evaluate on his NBA minutes but the next best thing you can evaluate with what you thought of him in college, maybe some summer and preseason games, D league games, what some scouts have said, and what the Celtics brass have said.  He was barely a second round pick in a deep draft and I read maybe a couple times if he came out this year he probably would have been a top 20 pick.  I think overall this is where some posters are getting their expectations from and who knows what he would have done if he got playing time on a lesser team last year.  Saying Bassy would destroy Pruitt is a little overboard.  Bassy averaged 32 MPG last year but his numbers are a little underwhelming considering the minutes played and his shooting percentages leave alot to be desired (first year shooting at above 40% from the field) at .401 FG%.  It's not like he offsets it with stellar defensive play like Rondo.  Bassy is going into his 5th year now and I'm just not sure how much more he will improve but we'll see and I hope he does.

I hear what you and Roy are saying though but I'd like to see where we are at with this maybe within a year. 

[Sweet17]

Gomes, Jefferson, Telfair would kill in their matchups - sorry to say. That team would get blown out regularly. Now GG kind of sucks - so that's one matchup we MIGHT win but even that is iffy GG does have a nice J. DW has gotten way more PT then he has earned but he would outplay Walker just because of his superior J.

I think we lose that game 20+ every single time.. Jefferson is a legit STUD and POB is barely hanging on in this league. I mean come on..

Pete