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NBA looking into playoff format changes
« on: April 28, 2008, 02:22:59 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I was looking through ESPN reading a couple of NBA articles when I found this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3370773

I thought it interesting that after an age of basketball that the league would even consider changing the format as drastically as some of the proposed changes that would only allow the top 16 teams into the playoffs.

I think I should mention that David Stern said that any changes away from the current format is extremely unlikely.

My opinion is that the only changes I would make would be as a five year trialand would be to seed the teams in each conference via record and throw away the slots for division champions. Those division championships are completely meaningless much like they are in the other three major American sports. Why reward a division champion who could possibly have a .500 winning percentage simply because they played in a division where all the other teams were tremendously bad? That never made any sense to me.

Also, for another five year trial period I think it would be worth reseeding the teams after each round. But only as a trial. This would keep the best of the best at having an easier time into the conference finals and NBA Finals.

All in all though the current system isn't all that bad. I know it drives Stern and the league office people nuts that you see series like the PHX/SA series before the conference finals but I think it maintains interest in the early rounds.

Believe me I would love to see the two best teams playing for the championship but that's the beauty of every tournament championship. Cinderella teams, upsets, early important series, and the chance for an unlikely regular season team to get hot and win it all.

I know the NBA has done everything possible to make sure the best teams play late in the pre season by expanding the first round to a seven game series and making it possible for a team with a great record who is not a division leader to get the 3rd seed. But they go to far sometimes in trying to figure out ways to maufacture the outcome they want.

Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 03:06:58 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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That's strange, my post froze after trying to post it. When I returned it wasn't in the latest topics area, so I thought I lost it but it show up under my posts section. Weird.

Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 03:45:34 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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I was looking through ESPN reading a couple of NBA articles when I found this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3370773

I thought it interesting that after an age of basketball that the league would even consider changing the format as drastically as some of the proposed changes that would only allow the top 16 teams into the playoffs.

I think I should mention that David Stern said that any changes away from the current format is extremely unlikely.

My opinion is that the only changes I would make would be as a five year trialand would be to seed the teams in each conference via record and throw away the slots for division champions. Those division championships are completely meaningless much like they are in the other three major American sports. Why reward a division champion who could possibly have a .500 winning percentage simply because they played in a division where all the other teams were tremendously bad? That never made any sense to me.

Also, for another five year trial period I think it would be worth reseeding the teams after each round. But only as a trial. This would keep the best of the best at having an easier time into the conference finals and NBA Finals.

All in all though the current system isn't all that bad. I know it drives Stern and the league office people nuts that you see series like the PHX/SA series before the conference finals but I think it maintains interest in the early rounds.

Believe me I would love to see the two best teams playing for the championship but that's the beauty of every tournament championship. Cinderella teams, upsets, early important series, and the chance for an unlikely regular season team to get hot and win it all.

I know the NBA has done everything possible to make sure the best teams play late in the pre season by expanding the first round to a seven game series and making it possible for a team with a great record who is not a division leader to get the 3rd seed. But they go to far sometimes in trying to figure out ways to maufacture the outcome they want.

Hey Nick,

Wrote about this stuff recently on the NBA page myself -- thought you might be interested to take a look.  Long story short: I'm a huge proponent of re-seeding, but I think that there is a lot of work that needs to be done to accompany any change in how the 16 playoff teams are selected.  Happy to discuss further.

http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2950&Itemid=241

-sw


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Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 03:56:33 PM »

Offline Mr October

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For the most part I like the current playoff system. 8 from the East, 8 from the West; even the division winner seeding (now they are guaranteed 3 of the top 4 spots, instead of the top 3 outright). I don't think reseeding needs to happen. I like the unpredictable nature of tournaments.

For those in the media, who are using SAN-PHO as an example for a need for change. I don't buy it. If Phoenix is so good, they should have won more games in the regular season. But they didn't. They're getting old, and aren't as good as LA, NO, SAN, UTA.

I'd rather see the tanking situation fixed. As is, I would never buy tickets to an NBA game during the last 2 weeks of the season. Chances are one of the 2 teams playing, will be playing their scrubs while tanking. The lottery should be slightly more evenly weighted. ....but I'm veering off topic a bit here...

Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 04:04:16 PM »

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I have no problems with the current system

I'm against re-seeding. I don't like it. Leave some unpredictability to the playoffs. It's fun to see an upstart upset team getting a better draw, they deserve that for knocking out the better team. Once the regular season is over, it should be over and have nothing more to do with the playoffs.

I think they should reward division titles but stop acting like a division title means something important and ban people from putting up division titles. They way they have it set up now avoids that San An-Dallas thing from repeating itself, that's more than enough cover for me. Plus I think it's unlikely that a division title winner will ever be so bad as to have a record that isn't in the top 8. They don't get homecourt anyway even if they get the fourth seed for the division. That's fine.

I'd like that 2-3-2 stuff in the Finals to stop. I do not like that.

Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2008, 04:13:12 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Nice article Steve, sorry I missed it yesterday.

I think the whole top 16 team idea will just never work because of the need to basically get rid of the conferences and divisions so that there can be balanced scheduling. The history of the league has been that there has been two conferences with a representative of each in the Finals to name a champion. The top 16 format basically makes the conferences useless and sets up an NCAA type tournament. I don't like it.

There will always be a conference that has the strongest teams. Recently, okay more than recently, it has been the Western Conference because of the large number of desireable FA locals out West and because of a few Western Conference teams holding onto top 50 players all-time for their entire career(see SA with Robinson and Duncan, Utah with Malone and Stockton, LA with Magic and Kobe). The cycle will turn eventually and the East will be dominant.

I remember in baseball in the 70's and 80's the NL was the dominant league and had been for quite some time having the best teams and talent and winning a ridiculous amount of All-Star games for like 3 decades. By the 90's that all turned and now the AL is the dominant league. It happens.

I like the current format with the small exceptions I detailed in my OP. I think it is dumb to reward a bad division winner with a guaranteed 4 seed if they aren't the fourth best team in the conference. I find it dumb that if the two best teams are in the same division that the runner up, who could possibly have won 60 games, should be seeded lower than any division winner.

Reseeding would be a nice thing to try for a few years but I like the fact that if an 8 seed beats a 1 seed that they are rewarded with an easier trip forward. They earned it in my eyes. For the 8 seed to beat the 1 seed and then have to play the 2 seed in the semis and then maybe the 3 seed in the conference final is just not fair.

But if the league wants to keep rewarding the division champions then make it harder to win a division and contract the divisions to 4 overall divisions with each division winner getting either a 1 or 2 seed. It makes winning a division mean something and pretty much will put the better teams in the good seeding spots.

Just a couple of ideas.

Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2008, 04:21:55 PM »

Offline Schupac

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I have no problem with the current seeding style.  I don't think it's perfect, but there it would really shake things up too much to have a "top 16" seeding type, what with travel and rivalries.

However, I think the playoff-draft lottery situation should be changed.  A team like ATL coming in at 16 should have a better draft pick than Golden State, I think.



What I would *love* to see changed (and will never in a million years happen...) is to shorten the first round, maybe the second.  That way casual fans might stay interested all the way through, instead of tapering off in the second month of the playoffs.  Also... do we really, really need 2 day breaks between playoff games?  ................ really?

Really?

Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2008, 04:23:46 PM »

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I'd like it if they went back to 4 divisions too. It's really lowered the level of competition for several divisions during the regular season by having such small divisions.

Cut two teams and move back to four divisions. I reccommend Memphis and Charlotte. It's not like they're succesful teams or have any history or any real attatchment in the community. Bad owners, bad GMs, bad coaches, bad groups of players. Or we expand again? I don't want that. Having two divisions with 15 and two with 14 would provide scheduling problems and be a tiny bit unfair, best avoided but if they could get an agreement on it I'd be all for it.

Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2008, 04:31:49 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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Nice article Steve, sorry I missed it yesterday.

I think the whole top 16 team idea will just never work because of the need to basically get rid of the conferences and divisions so that there can be balanced scheduling. The history of the league has been that there has been two conferences with a representative of each in the Finals to name a champion. The top 16 format basically makes the conferences useless and sets up an NCAA type tournament. I don't like it.

There will always be a conference that has the strongest teams. Recently, okay more than recently, it has been the Western Conference because of the large number of desireable FA locals out West and because of a few Western Conference teams holding onto top 50 players all-time for their entire career(see SA with Robinson and Duncan, Utah with Malone and Stockton, LA with Magic and Kobe). The cycle will turn eventually and the East will be dominant.

I remember in baseball in the 70's and 80's the NL was the dominant league and had been for quite some time having the best teams and talent and winning a ridiculous amount of All-Star games for like 3 decades. By the 90's that all turned and now the AL is the dominant league. It happens.

I like the current format with the small exceptions I detailed in my OP. I think it is dumb to reward a bad division winner with a guaranteed 4 seed if they aren't the fourth best team in the conference. I find it dumb that if the two best teams are in the same division that the runner up, who could possibly have won 60 games, should be seeded lower than any division winner.

Reseeding would be a nice thing to try for a few years but I like the fact that if an 8 seed beats a 1 seed that they are rewarded with an easier trip forward. They earned it in my eyes. For the 8 seed to beat the 1 seed and then have to play the 2 seed in the semis and then maybe the 3 seed in the conference final is just not fair.

But if the league wants to keep rewarding the division champions then make it harder to win a division and contract the divisions to 4 overall divisions with each division winner getting either a 1 or 2 seed. It makes winning a division mean something and pretty much will put the better teams in the good seeding spots.

Just a couple of ideas.

Regarding the issue of division winners, as much as I sympathize with your sentiments about not looking to overly reward teams that win terrible divisions, I think if you're going to have a divisional set-up, there needs to be some payoff.  What I've spent the last two years wondering is why the league only went halfway when they changed the rules about the seeding of division winners two summers ago -- granting division winners three of the top four seeds rather than each of the top three in each conference.  If the league was willing to do that, why not at least go the distance and say that the only reward guaranteed by a division title is a playoff spot? If we're going to have divisions, then following my theory that there should be some payoff (I'm open to disputes on this matter as well -- I don't purport to suggest that this postulation of mine is irrefutable fact), it's always seemed to me that the most logical solution would be to take the three division winners and the top five records after that in each conference at the end of the season, eliminate everybody else and seed the eight teams in each conference in order by record.  If we're taking for granted that division winners are in, that seems like the way to do it.  Any thoughts on this approach?

Regarding the issue of re-seeding between rounds, I lean the opposite direction from Nick: It should be difficult for the eight seed to get the championship.  Yes, the playoffs are the most important time of year, and yes, it's extremely impressive to have an eight seed beat a one seed, but it would seem to me that five and a half months worth of regular season basketball should be worth more than a simple first round seeding -- especially in a league in which more than half of the teams go to the playoffs every year.  The regular season is devalued enough already (especially as compared to baseball) because of how many teams are even given a shot to make a run at the title come mid-April.  I have no problem looking to give the highest remaining seeds the benefits of the doubt wherever I can in the organization of the latter rounds.  I'm interested to see how others feel about this issue -- and more on it from Nick -- since my past discussions with others on the matter (off site) seem to indicate that I'm often in the minority on this one, which I hadn't expected.

I'm right with ya about the 2-3-2, Who...I could do without it.  That said, I suggested in a previous thread that it would be cool to give the team with homecourt for the Finals a choice each year about which format they would prefer to use.  A nice perk for having the better record of the league's last two teams standing, and a fun way for us to see what the players and coaches themselves really think on this issue.

-sw


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Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 04:52:49 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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If you want to value the division winners, you'd probably have to go the route where you reward the top 2 seeds with byes. Problemsome to say the least.  You either would have to add 2 teams (going to be under .500 teams) or eliminate two teams in the playoffs.  Most importantly, the concept doesn't really translate well to any sport with 7 game series.  With the way the NBA schedule is set up, the layoff for the bye teams would be ridiculous and IMO, would offset any incentive for winning the division.  2 weeks of rust going into the playoffs?  No thanks. Steve's idea of division titles only garnering playoff berths (and not necessarily preferred seeding) would be a good idea.  However, I'm not positive if I like the idea of a possible division winner getting a 6 seed either.  It really is give and take with the whole thing.

Regarding the reseeding idea, I'd prefer to keep it the way it is.  The NCAA tourney doesn't reseed after each round and it surely hasn't diminished the drama of it.  I dont really find the idea of re-seeding to be an issue.  If there's a marquee matchup in the conference semis, so be it. Odds are they'll be another one in the conference finals.  Keep the suspense going in multiple rounds with terrific matchups.  Don't re-seed with the idea that you'll potentially get a terrific matchup in the conference finals where the stakes are a bit larger. 

Lastly, is there concrete scientific evidence that a 2-3-2 format poses a much more competitive disadvantage to one team or the other?  Basically the format was established because of geographics involved once the Finals rolled around.  Unless there is certain evidence illustrating a competitive disadvantage, I don't really have a problem with the current format.  You have to win 4 games anyways.  The great teams should be able to win at home or on the road whatever the format is.

 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 05:00:28 PM by Donoghus »


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Re: NBA looking into playoff format changes
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2008, 05:29:12 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I'm not completely against the idea of reseeding in the playoffs and as I said I would be up for a 5 year trial with the stipulation being that after the fifth year the owners vote as to whether to keep the format or not.

My guess is that the league offices and specifically Stern(I'm basing this on the league expanding the first round and the changes made a couple of years ago) would be all for the reseeding because he has done everything he can to try to get the best teams deep into the playoffs under the idea that the best teams will generate the most interest and hence the best ratings. Stern is all for making money and his belief is that the best teams will generate the most money. I think that isn't necessarily true. If your best team, like it has been for the last 9 years with San Antonio, is in a small market, it is deadly for the ratings.

What would happen to the ratings if some of the young teams become powers. Do you think Stern is going to love an Oklahoma City/Atlanta Final or a Portland/Milwaukee? I don't.

But I'm getting off subject. Reseeding does give the best teams the best chance to go deep and I do believe that is fair to the best teams that gave their all for 5 months and earned the right to go deep. But I truly love the drama of seeing a Cinderella go deep and the importance that the second round is given by not reseeding.

As for Steve's idea for making sure that the division winners are only guaranteed a spot in the playoffs, I think that's a great idea. As I said I don't think it makes any sense for a poor division winner to be rewarded in the seedings or an exceptional team who just so happened to be in the same division as another great team should be punished. If guaranteeing a division winner a spot in the playoffs knocks off the 8th best team in the conference, I really could care less. They could think of it this way. They are actually being rewarded because now they have the slightest of slight chances of winning the lottery instead of becoming fodder for a number 1 seed.

Lastly, I hate the 2-3-2 format. Do away with it. It originally was instated to cut down on the expense of travel and keeping the Finals teams fresh from having to travel cross country so many times. But that was before the NBA starting giving a minimum of 2 days between every playoff game and sometimes 3 days. Also, the owners are making tons and tons more money now than they used to. Who cares if they have to travel the team one more time all year. It's moronic. Also, I could care less if the players are fresh for every playoff game. Winning the NBA championship is a marathon, not a sprint.