Author Topic: Jokic wins MVP again  (Read 4391 times)

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Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2022, 01:03:03 PM »

Online Goldstar88

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Giannis is the best player in the NBA. 

Jokic is a magnificent player, particularly on offense, but his team has won 50 games once.  If results matter, his team isn't any better than the George Karl Nuggets teams last decade.


You don’t think it’s impressive that Jokic was able to get the Nuggets to 48 wins despite not having their 2nd and 3rd best players available? Murray played zero games this season. Porter Jr played 9. You think Giannis and the Bucks win 48 if you take away Holiday for the entire season with Middleton playing only 9 games? I don’t think so.
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Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2022, 01:22:16 PM »

Online Vermont Green

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I am totally fine with Jokic winning the MVP.  What he accomplished with a depleted team this year should be recognized.  But if I had to start a team, I would pick Giannis as my first pick.  Both things can be true.

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2022, 01:24:20 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Jokic is the analytics guys wet dream.  However, Giannis and Embiid are better than him.  Defense is still a big part of the game especially in the playoffs.  Giannis and Embiid are elite 2-way players.  Jokic is an elite offensive player.  If the players were to rank the best defenders, Giannis and Embiid would be named near the top.  I doubt Jokic would be in the top 100 regardless of what the stats say. 

As far as offense goes, Giannis and Embiid had great offensive seasons too.  Both Embiid (1st) and Giannis (3rd) have significantly higher usage than Jokic.  I also saw on the NBA.com site a story showing the top 20 players who were double teamed the most.  Giannis and Embiid were the top 2.  Jokic wasn't in the top 20.  Others already commented on Giannis, so I'll just comment on Embiid while acknowledging my bias.  This season, Embiid was the 1st center to average 30 points since Malone in the early 80s.  He had 13 40-point double doubles which is the most since McAdoo in the mid 70s. 

As far as impact and winning goes, Embiid has made a huge difference for the Sixers since he stepped on the court.  You can see the difference in the Sixers-Heat series with Embiid playing the last 2 games.  You can see the difference in the Raptors series from a few years ago.  Even though Embiid didn't have a great offensive series, Embiid's +/- difference was huge including game 7 when the Sixers were +10 in the 45 minutes when Embiid was on court and -12 when he was off court.  Embiid has the best overall skill set of the three and Embiid is arguably the most overall skilled center to play the game. 

Finally, I'll just note that all 3 are foreign born.  Next season with Luka, the top 4 players could be foreign born and all but Embiid only played overseas until they were drafted and Embiid didn't start playing until he was 15.   

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2022, 01:26:38 PM »

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  Jokic can't drive either.  If he gets the ball in his spot, he is uber effective, but he is far too reliant on others and doesn't have extreme dominance (like someone like Shaq in his prime) to just overwhelm a team.  He can be taken out and his effectiveness neutralized because he doesn't have the well rounded offensive skills that the all time greats have

Disagree. When you are the most skilled offensive player in the league, it does not matter if you are not a great or even good athletic talent.

It is the threat of Jokic's jump-shot that forces defenders to get so close up into him on defense which opens up the drive or the pass for Jokic. Much in the same way it did for Larry Bird. It wasn't that these guys where phenomenally quick; it was that they were supremely skilled. That ultra-high skill-level combined with offensive versatility made them a nightmare to defend and impossible to stop.

Jokic is also either the best or 2nd best low post scorer in the NBA alongside Embiid. His physical bulk combined versatile shot making, feints, passing threat, spin moves and ball-handling capabilities make him impossible to defend inside.

His outside shooting as a big man also allows him to create a large volume of outside scoring attempts relative to smaller perimeter orientated players who are easier to defend out on the perimeter due to natural matchups -- I mean, a SF being defended by a SF. And less threat of being punished in a switch by the best or 2nd best low scorer beating a smaller player in the post like Jokic can which makes switching more punitive. Danged if you, danged if you don't.

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2022, 01:27:01 PM »

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Jokic is the present day Larry Bird

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2022, 01:45:28 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Giannis is the best player in the NBA. 

Jokic is a magnificent player, particularly on offense, but his team has won 50 games once.  If results matter, his team isn't any better than the George Karl Nuggets teams last decade.


You don’t think it’s impressive that Jokic was able to get the Nuggets to 48 wins despite not having their 2nd and 3rd best players available? Murray played zero games this season. Porter Jr played 9. You think Giannis and the Bucks win 48 if you take away Holiday for the entire season with Middleton playing only 9 games? I don’t think so.
The west was the easier conference this season.  If the Bucks played in the west and Giannis had some shooting around him, I think they could get 48 wins.  I'm quite sure that Embiid could do it given what he did with some of the Sixers teams.  I'll refer you to the 2017-18 season when Embiid (2nd season) led the Sixers to 52 wins with the other starters being Simmons (1st season), Redick, Covington and Saric. 

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2022, 01:51:15 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Is there a site that tracks drives to the basket? As someone that watched him a lot I would be very surprised if he doesn’t have a decent number of drives. Basically he has a very high release point on his three and also is obviously very tall. He often does a pump fake and then lumbers in the to hole. Now I’ll admit a lot of time he passes out of this position for a wide open shot for one of his lousy teammates. By the way I wouldn’t have been upset if Embid or Giannis won it. But I don’t think we should bash jokic and say things that are not true about his game to argue why a different player should have won.

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2022, 01:51:54 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Giannis is the best player in the NBA. 

Jokic is a magnificent player, particularly on offense, but his team has won 50 games once.  If results matter, his team isn't any better than the George Karl Nuggets teams last decade.


You don’t think it’s impressive that Jokic was able to get the Nuggets to 48 wins despite not having their 2nd and 3rd best players available? Murray played zero games this season. Porter Jr played 9. You think Giannis and the Bucks win 48 if you take away Holiday for the entire season with Middleton playing only 9 games? I don’t think so.
The west was the easier conference this season.  If the Bucks played in the west and Giannis had some shooting around him, I think they could get 48 wins.  I'm quite sure that Embiid could do it given what he did with some of the Sixers teams.  I'll refer you to the 2017-18 season when Embiid (2nd season) led the Sixers to 52 wins with the other starters being Simmons (1st season), Redick, Covington and Saric.

TP tazz. Good point.

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2022, 02:53:52 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Is there a site that tracks drives to the basket? As someone that watched him a lot I would be very surprised if he doesn’t have a decent number of drives. Basically he has a very high release point on his three and also is obviously very tall. He often does a pump fake and then lumbers in the to hole. Now I’ll admit a lot of time he passes out of this position for a wide open shot for one of his lousy teammates. By the way I wouldn’t have been upset if Embid or Giannis won it. But I don’t think we should bash jokic and say things that are not true about his game to argue why a different player should have won.

He averages 4.2 drives per game, second on the Nuggets.

Relative to the rest of the league, he's definitely not close to the league leaders:

SGA:  23.9 drives per game
Doncic:  22.2 drives per game

Other notable names:

Giannis: 11.7
Tatum:  11.4
Jaylen:  11.1
Marcus: 8.7
D. White: 6.8
J. Richardson:  5.0

He does drive it fairly often among centers, though:

Julius Randle: 9.0
KAT: 7.9
Jaren Jackson: 5.6
Embiid:  5.3
Jokic: 4.2
Bam:  3.6
Sabonis: 3.5
Mobley: 3.5
Sengun: 3.4

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

One sort of wild stat:  Jokic drove the ball 27 times during five playoff games.  Doncic almost averages that number in the playoffs (24.9)!


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Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2022, 03:08:52 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Is there a site that tracks drives to the basket? As someone that watched him a lot I would be very surprised if he doesn’t have a decent number of drives. Basically he has a very high release point on his three and also is obviously very tall. He often does a pump fake and then lumbers in the to hole. Now I’ll admit a lot of time he passes out of this position for a wide open shot for one of his lousy teammates. By the way I wouldn’t have been upset if Embid or Giannis won it. But I don’t think we should bash jokic and say things that are not true about his game to argue why a different player should have won.

He averages 4.2 drives per game, second on the Nuggets.

Relative to the rest of the league, he's definitely not close to the league leaders:

SGA:  23.9 drives per game
Doncic:  22.2 drives per game

Other notable names:

Giannis: 11.7
Tatum:  11.4
Jaylen:  11.1
Marcus: 8.7
D. White: 6.8
J. Richardson:  5.0

He does drive it fairly often among centers, though:

Julius Randle: 9.0
KAT: 7.9
Jaren Jackson: 5.6
Embiid:  5.3
Jokic: 4.2
Bam:  3.6
Sabonis: 3.5
Mobley: 3.5
Sengun: 3.4

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

One sort of wild stat:  Jokic drove the ball 27 times during five playoff games.  Doncic almost averages that number in the playoffs (24.9)!

Yeah I didn’t mean a lot compared to guards/wings that wouldn’t make much sense. But basically he takes one less drive a game than Embid. Btw do they clarify if it counts as a drive if you kick out instead of shoot?

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2022, 03:23:38 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Is there a site that tracks drives to the basket? As someone that watched him a lot I would be very surprised if he doesn’t have a decent number of drives. Basically he has a very high release point on his three and also is obviously very tall. He often does a pump fake and then lumbers in the to hole. Now I’ll admit a lot of time he passes out of this position for a wide open shot for one of his lousy teammates. By the way I wouldn’t have been upset if Embid or Giannis won it. But I don’t think we should bash jokic and say things that are not true about his game to argue why a different player should have won.

He averages 4.2 drives per game, second on the Nuggets.

Relative to the rest of the league, he's definitely not close to the league leaders:

SGA:  23.9 drives per game
Doncic:  22.2 drives per game

Other notable names:

Giannis: 11.7
Tatum:  11.4
Jaylen:  11.1
Marcus: 8.7
D. White: 6.8
J. Richardson:  5.0

He does drive it fairly often among centers, though:

Julius Randle: 9.0
KAT: 7.9
Jaren Jackson: 5.6
Embiid:  5.3
Jokic: 4.2
Bam:  3.6
Sabonis: 3.5
Mobley: 3.5
Sengun: 3.4

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

One sort of wild stat:  Jokic drove the ball 27 times during five playoff games.  Doncic almost averages that number in the playoffs (24.9)!

Yeah I didn’t mean a lot compared to guards/wings that wouldn’t make much sense. But basically he takes one less drive a game than Embid. Btw do they clarify if it counts as a drive if you kick out instead of shoot?
The link has how many times they pass. 
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Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2022, 03:43:35 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Is there a site that tracks drives to the basket? As someone that watched him a lot I would be very surprised if he doesn’t have a decent number of drives. Basically he has a very high release point on his three and also is obviously very tall. He often does a pump fake and then lumbers in the to hole. Now I’ll admit a lot of time he passes out of this position for a wide open shot for one of his lousy teammates. By the way I wouldn’t have been upset if Embid or Giannis won it. But I don’t think we should bash jokic and say things that are not true about his game to argue why a different player should have won.

He averages 4.2 drives per game, second on the Nuggets.

Relative to the rest of the league, he's definitely not close to the league leaders:

SGA:  23.9 drives per game
Doncic:  22.2 drives per game

Other notable names:

Giannis: 11.7
Tatum:  11.4
Jaylen:  11.1
Marcus: 8.7
D. White: 6.8
J. Richardson:  5.0

He does drive it fairly often among centers, though:

Julius Randle: 9.0
KAT: 7.9
Jaren Jackson: 5.6
Embiid:  5.3
Jokic: 4.2
Bam:  3.6
Sabonis: 3.5
Mobley: 3.5
Sengun: 3.4

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

One sort of wild stat:  Jokic drove the ball 27 times during five playoff games.  Doncic almost averages that number in the playoffs (24.9)!
How does Randle get classified as a center? 

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2022, 04:02:03 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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All three are certainly MVP worthy.  The best thing about them is they all are likeable and don't come off as self-absorbed, entitled divas.  Huge upgrade in that area from Lebron, KD, Wade, Carmelo, etc.

Re: Jokic wins MVP again
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2022, 04:31:27 PM »

Offline colincb

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Not a total surprise, but I thought Embiid was a possibility.

Jokic easily wins the battle for advanced stats according to RAPTOR, Real +/-, and Estimated +/-. Also beats Giannios defensively in all three.