Tatum Stat that needs massive improvement

[footey]

Saying Tatum has been somewhat disappointing and saying he sucks are two totally different things. The Celtics are now going to have to fight for their playoff lives with a play-in, and part of that blame lies on our best player. That may sound unfair, but that's just how it works. You see teams like NYK and ATL fighting over every win and you see our [more talented] team come out lazy seemingly every game.

Statistically Tatum has been great this season, although his percentages are a bit lower than his peers. It does seem like he gets the opportunity to pad his stats at times, though. When we get down big, the other team eventually has a mini-let down allowing Tatum to exert his will on the game, only to come up short time and time again. Even last night, the game was essentially over going into the 4th, yet Tatum put up 16 meaningless points in that period on easy lay-ups, FTs, wide-open 3s.

It just doesn't seem like his impact on the game has been what we need from our best player...at least at the times we need it. I love Tatum - think he still has top 5 potential - but he is still very young and he needs to leave that laid back attitude at home. He needs to play with more purpose from the jump, not just when we get down big.

TP Jambr. 

Tatum's statistical profile continues to be very good.  Take last night's game, for example.  He filled the box score, and his shooting percentages were efficient. 

But he didn't impact the Celtics' chances in the game.

I think Tatum's strength is off the ball on the wing, non unlike how he was asked to play his rookie season.  He struggles (and hurts the team) when he becomes the primary play maker.  He was not so bad at it last night, that is more a comment for the season.

The Celtics are trying to build their championship blue print around Tatum, and I think that is a mistake. I'm not saying trade him, he is an excellent scorer and adequate defender.  But this chatter about him becoming a league MVP is utter nonsense. This team will unlikely win a championship with him driving the bus. He may be its best scorer when it does, but that is a different conversation.

[Moranis]

Saying Tatum has been somewhat disappointing and saying he sucks are two totally different things. The Celtics are now going to have to fight for their playoff lives with a play-in, and part of that blame lies on our best player. That may sound unfair, but that's just how it works. You see teams like NYK and ATL fighting over every win and you see our [more talented] team come out lazy seemingly every game.

Statistically Tatum has been great this season, although his percentages are a bit lower than his peers. It does seem like he gets the opportunity to pad his stats at times, though. When we get down big, the other team eventually has a mini-let down allowing Tatum to exert his will on the game, only to come up short time and time again. Even last night, the game was essentially over going into the 4th, yet Tatum put up 16 meaningless points in that period on easy lay-ups, FTs, wide-open 3s.

It just doesn't seem like his impact on the game has been what we need from our best player...at least at the times we need it. I love Tatum - think he still has top 5 potential - but he is still very young and he needs to leave that laid back attitude at home. He needs to play with more purpose from the jump, not just when we get down big.

TP Jambr. 

Tatum's statistical profile continues to be very good.  Take last night's game, for example.  He filled the box score, and his shooting percentages were efficient. 

But he didn't impact the Celtics' chances in the game.

I think Tatum's strength is off the ball on the wing, non unlike how he was asked to play his rookie season.  He struggles (and hurts the team) when he becomes the primary play maker.  He was not so bad at it last night, that is more a comment for the season.

The Celtics are trying to build their championship blue print around Tatum, and I think that is a mistake. I'm not saying trade him, he is an excellent scorer and adequate defender.  But this chatter about him becoming a league MVP is utter nonsense. This team will unlikely win a championship with him driving the bus. He may be its best scorer when it does, but that is a different conversation.

And yet when Tatum was on the floor Boston outscored Miami by 4 points.  In the 9 minutes he was on the bench, Miami outscored Boston by 12 points.  So I'm not sure how you can draw the conclusion that Tatum didn't impact the Celtics.  The problem wasn't Tatum, it was that there was no one else when Tatum wasn't on the floor.  And that has frankly been a consistent theme since Tatum entered the league.  He has led Boston's starters and main rotation players in on/off differential all 4 years he has been on the team.  He has been the single most important Celtic to the scoreboard the last 4 years and that has continued this year.  That includes Irving, Horford, Hayward, etc. from prior teams.  Jayson Tatum is the driver to Boston's success.  The team goes as he goes.  And frankly it hasn't even mattered that much if he statistically plays poorly or well.  The team is just better when Tatum is on the floor and is worse when he isn't.  And this is over 4 years so there is plenty of data to support it.  Tatum is the Celtics.

That is why I've been so vocal about building the team around him and setting it up to maximize his prime.  Why I've been pushing to do longer term moves and why acquiring Fournier just didn't make sense to me.  This team needs to maximize Tatum's potential and his window because Tatum is the guy.

[tstorey_97]

"Tatum stat that needs massive improvement"

How about a massively improved lineup?

An early poster broke it down well...the Celtics have "three really good scorers" and they're winning every other game.

The last two weeks has been interesting with Fournier added to the lineup...he gets lots of open looks as Spoelstra and other coaches are spending their money on Tatum and Walker (when he plays).

Then Tatum, needs to win games with no bench. No bench. Tatum scores 32 points or whatever and there's no bench.

Look at the benches the Celtic's are up against in the playoffs.

My point with all of his whining and Jason Tatum is Paul Pierce didn't look like much before two more veteran hall of famers showed up along with some veteran bench/role players did he?

Ainge attempted to put

Irving
Brown
Hayward
Davis and whomever onto the floor for the Celtics...Brown was going to be the "young guy."

Rondo was the "young guy"

Ainge will try and get Tatum a team. This team will include veteran talent throughout the lineup and the "massive improvement" will take place.

[Vermont Green]

Just for fun, I looked at Bradley Beal.  For April, he was overall 46%.  His worst game was 8-24 (33%) his best game was 11-18 (61%)

Steph Curry, for April overall 52%, worst 7-25 (28%), best 14-20 (70%).

For Tatum, overall in April 48%, worst 3-17 (18%), actually happened twice in back to back games (bit of a slump I guess), best 16-25 (64%).

I am not sure what this all means but Tatum does seem to have more "bad" games than Beal or Curry but really only 1 or 2 a month more than the two best scorers in the game (I scanned the game logs to come to this conclusion).  Again, not sure what this means.  Tatum is much younger than these guys also.  So if he cleans up one game a month on average, he will be as consistent as Curry or Beal.

I am not trying to defend Tatum, he is young and still improving, but the statement was that he needed massive improvement.  I just don't see that.  He is a young star on a team that has had way too many different starting line ups and he has had some bad shooting nights.  I am going to hang in with Tatum.

[nickagneta]

Saying Tatum has been somewhat disappointing and saying he sucks are two totally different things. The Celtics are now going to have to fight for their playoff lives with a play-in, and part of that blame lies on our best player. That may sound unfair, but that's just how it works. You see teams like NYK and ATL fighting over every win and you see our [more talented] team come out lazy seemingly every game.

Statistically Tatum has been great this season, although his percentages are a bit lower than his peers. It does seem like he gets the opportunity to pad his stats at times, though. When we get down big, the other team eventually has a mini-let down allowing Tatum to exert his will on the game, only to come up short time and time again. Even last night, the game was essentially over going into the 4th, yet Tatum put up 16 meaningless points in that period on easy lay-ups, FTs, wide-open 3s.

It just doesn't seem like his impact on the game has been what we need from our best player...at least at the times we need it. I love Tatum - think he still has top 5 potential - but he is still very young and he needs to leave that laid back attitude at home. He needs to play with more purpose from the jump, not just when we get down big.

TP Jambr. 

Tatum's statistical profile continues to be very good.  Take last night's game, for example.  He filled the box score, and his shooting percentages were efficient. 

But he didn't impact the Celtics' chances in the game.

I think Tatum's strength is off the ball on the wing, non unlike how he was asked to play his rookie season.  He struggles (and hurts the team) when he becomes the primary play maker.  He was not so bad at it last night, that is more a comment for the season.

The Celtics are trying to build their championship blue print around Tatum, and I think that is a mistake. I'm not saying trade him, he is an excellent scorer and adequate defender.  But this chatter about him becoming a league MVP is utter nonsense. This team will unlikely win a championship with him driving the bus. He may be its best scorer when it does, but that is a different conversation.

And yet when Tatum was on the floor Boston outscored Miami by 4 points.  In the 9 minutes he was on the bench, Miami outscored Boston by 12 points.  So I'm not sure how you can draw the conclusion that Tatum didn't impact the Celtics.  The problem wasn't Tatum, it was that there was no one else when Tatum wasn't on the floor.  And that has frankly been a consistent theme since Tatum entered the league.  He has led Boston's starters and main rotation players in on/off differential all 4 years he has been on the team.  He has been the single most important Celtic to the scoreboard the last 4 years and that has continued this year.  That includes Irving, Horford, Hayward, etc. from prior teams.  Jayson Tatum is the driver to Boston's success.  The team goes as he goes.  And frankly it hasn't even mattered that much if he statistically plays poorly or well.  The team is just better when Tatum is on the floor and is worse when he isn't.  And this is over 4 years so there is plenty of data to support it.  Tatum is the Celtics.

That is why I've been so vocal about building the team around him and setting it up to maximize his prime.  Why I've been pushing to do longer term moves and why acquiring Fournier just didn't make sense to me.  This team needs to maximize Tatum's potential and his window because Tatum is the guy.

How much of those total game stats in last night's game that you are using to defend Tatum, happened in the 4th quarter when the game was out of reach?

Up until the end of the 3rd, Tatum posted some good stats but was invisible defensively, played without energy and urgency, and wasn't very aggressive offensively. He had a very "empty stats" type game up until the end of the third and was definitely part of the reason they fell behind by 20+.

Given Miami held Boston at bay staying 15-17 points up throughout most of the 4th, I think it can be argued Tatum posted a ton of garbage time stats in that 4th quarter that skewed those +/- stats you are so fond of.

[Moranis]

Saying Tatum has been somewhat disappointing and saying he sucks are two totally different things. The Celtics are now going to have to fight for their playoff lives with a play-in, and part of that blame lies on our best player. That may sound unfair, but that's just how it works. You see teams like NYK and ATL fighting over every win and you see our [more talented] team come out lazy seemingly every game.

Statistically Tatum has been great this season, although his percentages are a bit lower than his peers. It does seem like he gets the opportunity to pad his stats at times, though. When we get down big, the other team eventually has a mini-let down allowing Tatum to exert his will on the game, only to come up short time and time again. Even last night, the game was essentially over going into the 4th, yet Tatum put up 16 meaningless points in that period on easy lay-ups, FTs, wide-open 3s.

It just doesn't seem like his impact on the game has been what we need from our best player...at least at the times we need it. I love Tatum - think he still has top 5 potential - but he is still very young and he needs to leave that laid back attitude at home. He needs to play with more purpose from the jump, not just when we get down big.

TP Jambr. 

Tatum's statistical profile continues to be very good.  Take last night's game, for example.  He filled the box score, and his shooting percentages were efficient. 

But he didn't impact the Celtics' chances in the game.

I think Tatum's strength is off the ball on the wing, non unlike how he was asked to play his rookie season.  He struggles (and hurts the team) when he becomes the primary play maker.  He was not so bad at it last night, that is more a comment for the season.

The Celtics are trying to build their championship blue print around Tatum, and I think that is a mistake. I'm not saying trade him, he is an excellent scorer and adequate defender.  But this chatter about him becoming a league MVP is utter nonsense. This team will unlikely win a championship with him driving the bus. He may be its best scorer when it does, but that is a different conversation.

And yet when Tatum was on the floor Boston outscored Miami by 4 points.  In the 9 minutes he was on the bench, Miami outscored Boston by 12 points.  So I'm not sure how you can draw the conclusion that Tatum didn't impact the Celtics.  The problem wasn't Tatum, it was that there was no one else when Tatum wasn't on the floor.  And that has frankly been a consistent theme since Tatum entered the league.  He has led Boston's starters and main rotation players in on/off differential all 4 years he has been on the team.  He has been the single most important Celtic to the scoreboard the last 4 years and that has continued this year.  That includes Irving, Horford, Hayward, etc. from prior teams.  Jayson Tatum is the driver to Boston's success.  The team goes as he goes.  And frankly it hasn't even mattered that much if he statistically plays poorly or well.  The team is just better when Tatum is on the floor and is worse when he isn't.  And this is over 4 years so there is plenty of data to support it.  Tatum is the Celtics.

That is why I've been so vocal about building the team around him and setting it up to maximize his prime.  Why I've been pushing to do longer term moves and why acquiring Fournier just didn't make sense to me.  This team needs to maximize Tatum's potential and his window because Tatum is the guy.

How much of those total game stats in last night's game that you are using to defend Tatum, happened in the 4th quarter when the game was out of reach?

Up until the end of the 3rd, Tatum posted some good stats but was invisible defensively, played without energy and urgency, and wasn't very aggressive offensively. He had a very "empty stats" type game up until the end of the third and was definitely part of the reason they fell behind by 20+.

Given Miami held Boston at bay staying 15-17 points up throughout most of the 4th, I think it can be argued Tatum posted a ton of garbage time stats in that 4th quarter that skewed those +/- stats you are so fond of.

Certainly a lot was, as Tatum was on the bench to start the 3rd quarter and Boston fell behind by 21 before he came back in.  He played the whole 1st quarter when they were even.  Slightly negative in the 2nd.  It was the 3rd quarter that was a bad one for the team with Tatum on the floor.  And then a solid 4th quarter.  Overall the impact with Tatum vs. without him had a couple of runs, one bad and one good, but was mostly even basketball.  Which of course makes sense as they were playing a good team with good defenders.  Tatum makes the team work though.  They just don't function well when he isn't in the game.

[PhoSita]

I think the instructive comparison here is Jimmy Butler.

Look at how Butler impacts and controls the game, especially late, without having an outside shot.

Butler succeeds by emphasis on many of the areas where Tatum is lacking.

[RJ87]

I think the instructive comparison here is Jimmy Butler.

Look at how Butler impacts and controls the game, especially late, without having an outside shot.

Butler succeeds by emphasis on many of the areas where Tatum is lacking.

And yet, Jimmy wasn't that guy at 23 years old or in his 4th year in the league (when he was 25). He's developed a lot of those qualities as he's gained experience. And even with that growth, he still struggled as a leader as recently as 2 season ago when he was in Minnesota.

I think Jayson has been so good at such a young age that people just expect him to have the savvy and leadership quality of a 8 or 10 year vet. Folks could benefit from a bit of patience and actually let him continue to develop.

[PhoSita]

I think the instructive comparison here is Jimmy Butler.

Look at how Butler impacts and controls the game, especially late, without having an outside shot.

Butler succeeds by emphasis on many of the areas where Tatum is lacking.

And yet, Jimmy wasn't that guy at 23 years old or in his 4th year in the league (when he was 25). He's developed a lot of those qualities as he's gained experience. And even with that growth, he still struggled as a leader as recently as 2 season ago when he was in Minnesota.

I think Jayson has been so good at such a young age that people just expect him to have the savvy and leadership quality of a 8 or 10 year vet. Folks could benefit from a bit of patience and actually let him continue to develop.

Good points, and Jimmy came into the league at age 22 and wasn't playing like a star until age 25/26.

That said, Jimmy has a career free throw rate of 50.9% and a career steal rate of 2.5%.  Two areas -- especially the FT -- where Tatum is lacking.

[RJ87]

I think the instructive comparison here is Jimmy Butler.

Look at how Butler impacts and controls the game, especially late, without having an outside shot.

Butler succeeds by emphasis on many of the areas where Tatum is lacking.

And yet, Jimmy wasn't that guy at 23 years old or in his 4th year in the league (when he was 25). He's developed a lot of those qualities as he's gained experience. And even with that growth, he still struggled as a leader as recently as 2 season ago when he was in Minnesota.

I think Jayson has been so good at such a young age that people just expect him to have the savvy and leadership quality of a 8 or 10 year vet. Folks could benefit from a bit of patience and actually let him continue to develop.

Good points, and Jimmy came into the league at age 22 and wasn't playing like a star until age 25/26.

That said, Jimmy has a career free throw rate of 50.9% and a career steal rate of 2.5%.  Two areas -- especially the FT -- where Tatum is lacking.

Sure, but again I think it comes back to nitpicking and an overall impatience. No, he isn't a complete player right now. But you can go through the initial 4 seasons for just about any All-Star player and find things that they lacked and needed to work on.

And I will say this, Butler is able to control the game late - especially without having an outside shot still - because he has a supporting cast that allows him to be in that position. There's been a lot of complaints that Tatum is a slow starter, but there's been a ton of games in Miami where Butler doesn't even look to score until 3 quarters have gone by. In the first game on Sunday, Jimmy took 1 shot in the 1st half.

So I'm hesitant to compare the two simply because they're totally different players and in far different situations.

[Celtics4ever]

Talent has Alpha level talent with a Beta Mind...

[Vermont Green]

Talent has Alpha level talent with a Beta Mind...

Isn't the opposite of this exactly what Smart gets criticized for by so many?  Smart being a Beta level talent but an Alpha in his mind?  Celtics players can't win.

Anyway, I know this has been a frustrating season but Tatum is a great player.  He will grow mentally into his talent.  That is a lot easier than if you don't have the talent.  The guy is 23 years old.  I think it is a bit premature to conclude he can't be the best player on a really good team at some point because he has a Beta mind set (whatever that even is).

[Celtics4ever]

Anyway, I know this has been a frustrating season but Tatum is a great player.  He will grow mentally into his talent.  That is a lot easier than if you don't have the talent.  The guy is 23 years old.  I think it is a bit premature to conclude he can't be the best player on a really good team at some point because he has a Beta mind set (whatever that even is).

Yeah he may mature.  The first step is learning to play the whole game.   This for whatever reason has not happened and he often is a great second half player.   Do you think he had meteoric success early and does not know what it takes to win at the NBA level?  Could that be it?   These guys were handled the keys to the car at a very young age.

Isn't the opposite of this exactly what Smart gets criticized for by so many?  Smart being a Beta level talent but an Alpha in his mind?  Celtics players can't win.

Everyone cringes when Marcus takes those make or break shots like he the man.   He will win you a game once in a while and loss some too.

[Moranis]

I think the instructive comparison here is Jimmy Butler.

Look at how Butler impacts and controls the game, especially late, without having an outside shot.

Butler succeeds by emphasis on many of the areas where Tatum is lacking.

And yet, Jimmy wasn't that guy at 23 years old or in his 4th year in the league (when he was 25). He's developed a lot of those qualities as he's gained experience. And even with that growth, he still struggled as a leader as recently as 2 season ago when he was in Minnesota.

I think Jayson has been so good at such a young age that people just expect him to have the savvy and leadership quality of a 8 or 10 year vet. Folks could benefit from a bit of patience and actually let him continue to develop.

Good points, and Jimmy came into the league at age 22 and wasn't playing like a star until age 25/26.

That said, Jimmy has a career free throw rate of 50.9% and a career steal rate of 2.5%.  Two areas -- especially the FT -- where Tatum is lacking.

Sure, but Tatum also shoots the 3 a lot more and a lot better percentage.  They are just a different style of offensive player.  And if you add up the Steal Percentage and Block Percentage of each for their careers Butler is 3.7 and Tatum is 3.6, so while Butler generates more steals and he doesn't block shots any where near as frequently as Tatum.  Again, just different types of defenders.