ESPN top 10 ranking has KD ranked 6th??

[gouki88]

I think 6th is pretty fair. He's slower on defence now, obviously, and seems to not have the same ability to explode on offence with speed. That's why he shot 7-16 against a team with no real wing defence in his season opener.

Of course he's rusty. But we don't know how rusty he'll be, so a ranking like that seems fair

[Roy H.]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

[Tr1boy]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Isnt Middleton an all star??

How did the Bucks have the best regular season record two years in a row? Or top 2?

Sounds like a deep team to me

[Roy H.]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Isnt Middleton an all star??

How did the Bucks have the best regular season record two years in a row? Or top 2?

Sounds like a deep team to me

How did Lebron win 60+ games with “all-star”
Mo Williams as his sidekick?

MVPs lift their teammates.

[Moranis]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Kawhi also had Gasol and Ibaka.  Gasol obviously past his prime but still was a solid center and former DPOY and All NBA guy.  Gasol has better awards, stats, etc. than any Buck and he was the 4th best player on the Raptors.

[gouki88]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Kawhi also had Gasol and Ibaka.  Gasol obviously past his prime but still was a solid center and former DPOY and All NBA guy.  Gasol has better awards, stats, etc. than any Buck and he was the 4th best player on the Raptors.

Pretty disingenuous to refer to Gasol like that when he was averaging 9/7/4.

[Somebody]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Kawhi also had Gasol and Ibaka.  Gasol obviously past his prime but still was a solid center and former DPOY and All NBA guy.  Gasol has better awards, stats, etc. than any Buck and he was the 4th best player on the Raptors.

Pretty disingenuous to refer to Gasol like that when he was averaging 9/7/4.

To be fair Gasol was sneaky good despite that slashline, he played like a top 50ish player that season. Giannis' supporting cast certainly isn't underwhelming though, Middleton was snubbed from the All-NBA team last season. They probably could have used a third creator last year and they addressed that with the addition of Holiday. They aren't incredibly stacked, but Giannis should be contending for a title with this supporting cast with a top 15-20 player as his sidekick, a top 30ish player as his third option and a collection of good role players (eg. Lopez, Augustin, DiVincenzo, Forbes, etc).

[Ogaju]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Kawhi also had Gasol and Ibaka.  Gasol obviously past his prime but still was a solid center and former DPOY and All NBA guy.  Gasol has better awards, stats, etc. than any Buck and he was the 4th best player on the Raptors.

Pretty disingenuous to refer to Gasol like that when he was averaging 9/7/4.

Didnt Toronto play a GSW team missing Durant and Klay?

[gouki88]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Kawhi also had Gasol and Ibaka.  Gasol obviously past his prime but still was a solid center and former DPOY and All NBA guy.  Gasol has better awards, stats, etc. than any Buck and he was the 4th best player on the Raptors.

Pretty disingenuous to refer to Gasol like that when he was averaging 9/7/4.

Didnt Toronto play a GSW team missing Durant and Klay?

They did, but you can undermine most championships with that kind of criteria. So many losers in the Finals lose due to injury - we should know!

[Moranis]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Kawhi also had Gasol and Ibaka.  Gasol obviously past his prime but still was a solid center and former DPOY and All NBA guy.  Gasol has better awards, stats, etc. than any Buck and he was the 4th best player on the Raptors.

Pretty disingenuous to refer to Gasol like that when he was averaging 9/7/4.

Also pretty disingenuous to ignore his 16/9/5 slash line he had in Memphis for 53 games before the trade when he was the 2nd option.  His numbers suffered in Toronto because they were a better and deeper team than Memphis. 

[Moranis]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Kawhi also had Gasol and Ibaka.  Gasol obviously past his prime but still was a solid center and former DPOY and All NBA guy.  Gasol has better awards, stats, etc. than any Buck and he was the 4th best player on the Raptors.

Pretty disingenuous to refer to Gasol like that when he was averaging 9/7/4.

To be fair Gasol was sneaky good despite that slashline, he played like a top 50ish player that season. Giannis' supporting cast certainly isn't underwhelming though, Middleton was snubbed from the All-NBA team last season. They probably could have used a third creator last year and they addressed that with the addition of Holiday. They aren't incredibly stacked, but Giannis should be contending for a title with this supporting cast with a top 15-20 player as his sidekick, a top 30ish player as his third option and a collection of good role players (eg. Lopez, Augustin, DiVincenzo, Forbes, etc).

You think Middleton is a top 15-20 player.  Really?

This is SI's top 20.  Who you taking off?

Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, Curry, Durant, Davis, Jokic, Doncic, Embiid, Butler, Lillard, George, Paul, Beal, Gobert, Tatum, Towns, Irving, Bam

Here is the next 5

Simmons, Murray, Mitchell, Booker, Westbrook

They have Holiday at 26 and Middleton at 27 followed by Lowry, Trae, Siakam

So which people are you moving either Holiday or Middleton ahead of to get one of them into the top 20. 


ESPN has Holiday at 33 and Middleton at 35, which are both actually pretty defensible when you actually really start breaking it down.


The Bucks have a fair amount of depth (though lost some in the Holiday move), but they don't have any other real top tier talent.  That is why they struggle in the playoffs because they only have 1 player they can truly rely on and when your team is that reliant on one player, you can be game planned around.  That is why Lebron never could beat the best teams his first stint in Cleveland.  It is why the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen arrived.  It is why KG made it out of the 1st round only 1 time before the Boston trade.  You need a real and legit 2nd star except in very rare circumstances to win a lot in the playoffs (and certainly to be a champion).  It is why Brooklyn and Philly, if they are both healthy, are more scary than Milwaukee, despite Milwaukee having the best player in the world as they both have that 2nd guy they can lean on.  It is also why the Clippers collapse against the Nuggets last year is all the more shocking because both Leonard and George went into the tank at the same time. 

[Somebody]

Kawhi seems to have lost some of his physical prowess.

If KD is back to his play pre-injury, and all indications are that he is, KD should be ranked the 2nd best player in the NBA.

If Brooklyn spanks Lakers in NBA finals (which is what I predict will happen), KD will regain his crown as the best.

Giannis is just too weak from outside, and too easily schemed against in playoffs, to be worthy of ranking within top 2. 

Stat nerds will continue to claim otherwise.

I judge by championship worthiness.

Giannis is absolutely championship worthy, his supporting cast has not been.  With Holiday they are better, but as I indicated earlier, the only Buck that has ever made an All NBA Team at any point in their life is Giannis and it isn't like they are a team of young up and comers.  They are in their prime.  The last time a team won the NBA championship with only 1 player having been on an All NBA Team at the time of the Finals, was the 04 Pistons (Ben Wallace made his 3rd straight that year).  Before that it was the 94 Rockets.  The 79 Sonics didn't have any one make an All NBA Team until after the title season.  I didn't go back further than that, but you get the idea.  It is rare.  That is the company that Giannis would be in if he willed the Bucks to a title.

Yeah, with the exception of Hakeem in a couple of non-MJ seasons, superstars need another bonafide star to win.  The Giannis criticism is nonsense.

Lebron needed future Hall of Famers (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Davis).  So did Durant.  So did Davis, etc., etc.

I guess Kawhi is closest to Giannis, “only” having Lowry and Siakim.

Kawhi also had Gasol and Ibaka.  Gasol obviously past his prime but still was a solid center and former DPOY and All NBA guy.  Gasol has better awards, stats, etc. than any Buck and he was the 4th best player on the Raptors.

Pretty disingenuous to refer to Gasol like that when he was averaging 9/7/4.

To be fair Gasol was sneaky good despite that slashline, he played like a top 50ish player that season. Giannis' supporting cast certainly isn't underwhelming though, Middleton was snubbed from the All-NBA team last season. They probably could have used a third creator last year and they addressed that with the addition of Holiday. They aren't incredibly stacked, but Giannis should be contending for a title with this supporting cast with a top 15-20 player as his sidekick, a top 30ish player as his third option and a collection of good role players (eg. Lopez, Augustin, DiVincenzo, Forbes, etc).

You think Middleton is a top 15-20 player.  Really?

This is SI's top 20.  Who you taking off?

Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, Curry, Durant, Davis, Jokic, Doncic, Embiid, Butler, Lillard, George, Paul, Beal, Gobert, Tatum, Towns, Irving, Bam

Here is the next 5

Simmons, Murray, Mitchell, Booker, Westbrook

They have Holiday at 26 and Middleton at 27 followed by Lowry, Trae, Siakam

So which people are you moving either Holiday or Middleton ahead of to get one of them into the top 20. 


ESPN has Holiday at 33 and Middleton at 35, which are both actually pretty defensible when you actually really start breaking it down.


The Bucks have a fair amount of depth (though lost some in the Holiday move), but they don't have any other real top tier talent.  That is why they struggle in the playoffs because they only have 1 player they can truly rely on and when your team is that reliant on one player, you can be game planned around.  That is why Lebron never could beat the best teams his first stint in Cleveland.  It is why the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen arrived.  It is why KG made it out of the 1st round only 1 time before the Boston trade.  You need a real and legit 2nd star except in very rare circumstances to win a lot in the playoffs (and certainly to be a champion).  It is why Brooklyn and Philly, if they are both healthy, are more scary than Milwaukee, despite Milwaukee having the best player in the world as they both have that 2nd guy they can lean on.  It is also why the Clippers collapse against the Nuggets last year is all the more shocking because both Leonard and George went into the tank at the same time.

I do, he was fantastic last season. I'd take Middleton over Bam, Beal and Paul (the second bunch aren't even close unless Murray maintains his postseason form) so he's firmly in the mix for top 15 with the likes of Tatum and Kyrie to me.

I disagree. Giannis is a top tier talent and Middleton is very close to that level as an All-NBA calibre wing. With the addition of a third creator in Holiday they'll have enough firepower to grind out offence in crunch time as long as they have two shooters on the floor next to those three.