Marcus Smart's role

[Monkhouse]

Marcus Smart has not stopped:

Collin Sexton
Dennis Shroeder
Ish Smith
Mike Conley
Caris Levert
Russell Westbrook

Know who else didn't stop those players? All the Celtics that got switched onto those players once the other team saw Smart was guarding those players.

Same thing happens to Brown. Every time Houston saw Brown on either Westbrook or Harden, when they had the ball, Harden or Westbrook did a switch to get Brown off them.

Now, I'm not saying Smart played great defense against the players you mentioned, while everyone else sucked. I actually think Smart's defense hasn't been very good in a lot of recent games. But what I am saying is Smart wasn't the only Celtic getting burned by your list of players and probably didn't play defense as poorly against those players as some other Celtics did.

If all it takes is a switch then what value does a "defensive stopper" actually have? If the opposing team simply has to run a pick and get a switch then his value basically becomes null.

[gouki88]

Marcus Smart has not stopped:

Collin Sexton
Dennis Shroeder
Ish Smith
Mike Conley
Caris Levert
Russell Westbrook

Know who else didn't stop those players? All the Celtics that got switched onto those players once the other team saw Smart was guarding those players.

Same thing happens to Brown. Every time Houston saw Brown on either Westbrook or Harden, when they had the ball, Harden or Westbrook did a switch to get Brown off them.

Now, I'm not saying Smart played great defense against the players you mentioned, while everyone else sucked. I actually think Smart's defense hasn't been very good in a lot of recent games. But what I am saying is Smart wasn't the only Celtic getting burned by your list of players and probably didn't play defense as poorly against those players as some other Celtics did.

If all it takes is a switch then what value does a "defensive stopper" actually have? If the opposing team simply has to run a pick and get a switch then his value basically becomes null.

You can’t actually be serious

[Rosco917]

Marcus Smart has not stopped:

Collin Sexton
Dennis Shroeder
Ish Smith
Mike Conley
Caris Levert
Russell Westbrook

Know who else didn't stop those players? All the Celtics that got switched onto those players once the other team saw Smart was guarding those players.

Same thing happens to Brown. Every time Houston saw Brown on either Westbrook or Harden, when they had the ball, Harden or Westbrook did a switch to get Brown off them.

Now, I'm not saying Smart played great defense against the players you mentioned, while everyone else sucked. I actually think Smart's defense hasn't been very good in a lot of recent games. But what I am saying is Smart wasn't the only Celtic getting burned by your list of players and probably didn't play defense as poorly against those players as some other Celtics did.

If all it takes is a switch then what value does a "defensive stopper" actually have? If the opposing team simply has to run a pick and get a switch then his value basically becomes null.

There was a time when this site was greatly respected as an avenue of NBA knowledge. Those days are slipping away. Many of the responses now are of the video game caliber.

[Spicoli]

I would love for someone to answer the question instead of posting gifs? If a defensive stopper cannot be counted on to stop or even slow down a hot player on the opposing team, what value does he actually have?

[Monkhouse]

I would love for someone to answer the question instead of posting gifs? If a defensive stopper cannot be counted on to stop or even slow down a hot player on the opposing team, what value does he actually have?

Last time I'll explain this but...

What was and is called hand checking was allowed. It allowed the defender to be more physical.

Tony Allen, aka the Kobe stopper? Yeah, he got away with a lot of fouls that wouldn't fly in today's NBA. As much as we love him, he fouled a lot, but refs respected him, and he rarely had a reputation of arguing/being emotional. (Smart has a tendency to be very aggressive when he disagrees with calls.)

For decades, the NBA required teams to play 1 on 1 to man to man defense. It meant everyone could guard someone. You could double team one player and then recover to your man, but being caught guarding no one would result in illegal defense. That meant you can't stay in the paint anymore all day.

NBA tried to tweak rules to limit isos, but were never 100% able to eliminate them. When zone defenses became legal, though, it made isos much harder. The two man game, the pick and roll or pick and pop, has become much more popular than isos, simply because the defense can easily flood the side of the floor where the iso is taking place, forcing the star player to go one on three or pass the ball.

However, despite the legalities regarding the defensive rule and 3 second rule, Thibs basically engineered the ICE Strong-side overload defense. Thibs implemented a system that allowed defenders to flood the strong side of the floor, and using extra defenders to force tough long cross court passes which would allow defenses to recover when beat.

Thibs used KG/Joakim Noah to remain in the paint for 2.9 seconds, step out, and step back in to avoid the 3 defensive rule.

Thib's ICE strong-side defense has been widely accepted and used in today's NBA.

To answer your question...

When you fight through the screen, and try to go around it, generally the defender has to make the tough decision to either cut off the scorer or switch on the roller. Smart is adept at this. He knows when to switch at the right time, and when to intercept passing lanes.

Our defense is predicated on switch-ability. 2013-2016, we didn't really have the personnel to consistently switch back and forth without getting dominated having someone like Avery Bradley on LeBron James.

__

In conclusion...

There is no such thing as a dominant defender that can shut anyone down. Great offense beats great defense. That's just how it is. That's why you see wings who can attack passing lanes, and block shots from behind after being beat to avoid fouling the shooter. Tatum is especially great at this.

Gone are the days where you could literally have exceptional solid man to man defense, because generally fouls are called more frequently to allow more points scored in the NBA to make it more 'exciting,' for recreational viewers.

Does this answer your question?..

[Spicoli]

I would love for someone to answer the question instead of posting gifs? If a defensive stopper cannot be counted on to stop or even slow down a hot player on the opposing team, what value does he actually have?

Last time I'll explain this but...

What was and is called hand checking was allowed. It allowed the defender to be more physical.

Tony Allen, aka the Kobe stopper? Yeah, he got away with a lot of fouls that wouldn't fly in today's NBA. As much as we love him, he fouled a lot, but refs respected him, and he rarely had a reputation of arguing/being emotional. (Smart has a tendency to be very aggressive when he disagrees with calls.)

For decades, the NBA required teams to play 1 on 1 to man to man defense. It meant everyone could guard someone. You could double team one player and then recover to your man, but being caught guarding no one would result in illegal defense. That meant you can't stay in the paint anymore all day.

NBA tried to tweak rules to limit isos, but were never 100% able to eliminate them. When zone defenses became legal, though, it made isos much harder. The two man game, the pick and roll or pick and pop, has become much more popular than isos, simply because the defense can easily flood the side of the floor where the iso is taking place, forcing the star player to go one on three or pass the ball.

However, despite the legalities regarding the defensive rule and 3 second rule, Thibs basically engineered the ICE Strong-side overload defense. Thibs implemented a system that allowed defenders to flood the strong side of the floor, and using extra defenders to force tough long cross court passes which would allow defenses to recover when beat.

Thibs used KG/Joakim Noah to remain in the paint for 2.9 seconds, step out, and step back in to avoid the 3 defensive rule.

Thib's ICE strong-side defense has been widely accepted and used in today's NBA.

To answer your question...

When you fight through the screen, and try to go around it, generally the defender has to make the tough decision to either cut off the scorer or switch on the roller. Smart is adept at this. He knows when to switch at the right time, and when to intercept passing lanes.

Our defense is predicated on switch-ability. 2013-2016, we didn't really have the personnel to consistently switch back and forth without getting dominated having someone like Avery Bradley on LeBron James.

__

In conclusion...

There is no such thing as a dominant defender that can shut anyone down. Great offense beats great defense. That's just how it is. That's why you see wings who can attack passing lanes, and block shots from behind after being beat to avoid fouling the shooter. Tatum is especially great at this.

Gone are the days where you could literally have exceptional solid man to man defense, because generally fouls are called more frequently to allow more points scored in the NBA to make it more 'exciting,' for recreational viewers.

Does this answer your question?..

Thank you Monkhouse for taking the time to explain all of this. I appreciate this kind of thorough response. You did explain why there is no longer such a thing as a lock down defender. What i'm still confused about is why, if that is the case, is a guy like Marcus Smart so highly regarded? You mentioned that he's very adept at knowing when to switch and when to fight through screens. I'll give you that. That does have some value. But does it outweigh how often he fouls a 3 point shooter? Or how often he forces the issue on offense? Basically my question is this: does Marcus Smart's ability to switch and play the passing lanes outweigh his negative attributes? What value does he actually have?

[nickagneta]

The value in a player like Smart is his ability to switch and guard just about any other player he is switched onto. He is quick enough, athletic enough and strong enough to cover everyone for PGs to centers at a very high level. Having multiple players that can do this is what makes a switching defense so effective, and the Celtics are loaded with high quality defenders that can do this.

So though teams force switches, unless they then run straight iso after the switch, the ball could end up with Smart guarding the shooter. Also, Boston is adept at switching off ball to get the weakest defender onto the desired player and so even off ball Smart gets switched onto more important offensive players to guard.

Also, off ball, Smart is a tremendous defender in denying important players the ball where they want the ball or completely denying the ball going to him. That off ball, weakside defense is key when teams play inside out offense or when swinging the ball around the perimeter for the open shot.

Lastly, Smart is a tremendous defensive quarterback calling switches off ball, telling players who to pick up as the ball comes up court, making players aware of where to be. His defensive BBIQ is off the charts and his defensive vocal leadership is a giant factor.

Oh, and when teams can't or don't switch him off the ball, Smart is one of the best on ball defenders in the league. His kryptonite...small, fast, quick guards. Everyone has a weakness. We can live with his given he is outstanding defensively in every other way.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I'm gonna say something controversial.

Marcus Smart is only above average on defense, but he has a penchant to make spectacular individual defensive plays. These can be momentum-shifting plays, but normally lately they have been plays that simply don't make up for poor shot selection or turnovers. They also don't make up for how he is getting caught on screens more often, and struggling to recover after he is screened. They also don't make up for the times when he tries to make a big defensive play but gets called for a foul.

He's a defensive JR Smith. JR Smith had a penchant for spectacular offensive plays, but was not reliable on that side of the court. Defensively, he had a lot of brain farts that could be made up for by the occasional big shot or solo 8 point run. Smart is the opposite.

The main difference is that Smart does keep the ball moving on offense and makes some dynamic passes.

[Monkhouse]

The value in a player like Smart is his ability to switch and guard just about any other player he is switched onto. He is quick enough, athletic enough and strong enough to cover everyone for PGs to centers at a very high level. Having multiple players that can do this is what makes a switching defense so effective, and the Celtics are loaded with high quality defenders that can do this.

So though teams force switches, unless they then run straight iso after the switch, the ball could end up with Smart guarding the shooter. Also, Boston is adept at switching off ball to get the weakest defender onto the desired player and so even off ball Smart gets switched onto more important offensive players to guard.

Also, off ball, Smart is a tremendous defender in denying important players the ball where they want the ball or completely denying the ball going to him. That off ball, weakside defense is key when teams play inside out offense or when swinging the ball around the perimeter for the open shot.

Lastly, Smart is a tremendous defensive quarterback calling switches off ball, telling players who to pick up as the ball comes up court, making players aware of where to be. His defensive BBIQ is off the charts and his defensive vocal leadership is a giant factor.

Oh, and when teams can't or don't switch him off the ball, Smart is one of the best on ball defenders in the league. His kryptonite...small, fast, quick guards. Everyone has a weakness. We can live with his given he is outstanding defensively in every other way.

I was going to write something like this, but thanks for that nickagenta.

Just to add onto that, Smart is always in the top 10 for charges drawn. I would wager that is a good measure of excellent defense.

I suspect once we get a consistent big that can switch on everyone, (Theis does a good job, but still some bigs like Embiid/Jokic can give him issues) Smart will be able to go back to forcing turnovers, and playing the same defense that allowed us to have the lowest defensive rating in the NBA.

[Spicoli]

Thanks Nick and Monk for your classy responses. We may not always agree but a civil debate is enjoyable. So it sounds like his ability to switch and not be caught on a mismatch is valuable in today's league. DefenseWinsChamps just said something that i'm curious about as well. Does his penchant for fouling guys in the act of shooting 3 pointers, or his tunnel vision on offense diminish his defensive impact of being ultra switchable? I feel like his bad play on offense at least partially cancels out what he's doing on defense. Also, can someone possibly go into detail on why opposing ball handlers like Sexton, or Conley or Ish Smith are having a field day against this defense? What is the defensive philosophy employed by Stevens and what are it's weaknesses?

[nickagneta]

I would say that both your and DefenseWinsChamps opinions are steeped in recency bias. When the team was healthier with players playing their roles, like early season and in January, no one was complaining about Smart's defense. People were talking about him for Defensive Player of the Year. 

Admittedly, Smart's defense hasn't been great the last couple weeks but that has coincided with playing lots of games without Brown, Tatum, Hayward and Kemba.

I don't think that is a coincidence. Smart has had to start and take on the responsibility of being a major offensive weapon for the team in their absence. A decline in defense would make sense as he concentrates more on offense and plays more with players he doesn't usually play with like Romeo, Edwards and Waters.

[Spicoli]

I would say that both your and DefenseWinsChamps opinions are steeped in recency bias. When the team was healthier with players playing their roles, like early season and in January, no one was complaining about Smart's defense. People were talking about him for Defensive Player of the Year. 

Admittedly, Smart's defense hasn't been great the last couple weeks but that has coincided with playing lots of games without Brown, Tatum, Hayward and Kemba.

I don't think that is a coincidence. Smart has had to start and take on the responsibility of being a major offensive weapon for the team in their absence. A decline in defense would make sense as he concentrates more on offense and plays more with players he doesn't usually play with like Romeo, Edwards and Waters.

I'm curious about what you said there. Why does Smart of all people feel as though he needs to take on more of an offensive burden when other players are out? He is not a good offensive player so why is he given free reign like he is one? Of course someone has to score, but why shouldn't the workload for Hayward and Tatum increase instead of the workload for Smart increase? Just because guys are out his role should not change.

[Monkhouse]

To further add onto that; our defensive rating with Smart on the floor was 99.4 in the month of January. The best number in the NBA, it's pretty clear without Brown and Walker, Smart is forced into tough spots having to carry the offensive lead.

Also, the fact Smart is compared to JR Smith is laughable. If Smith hadn't lucked out into ending up in a nice situation with the Knicks, teams would stop giving him the green light to shoot. Smith offers absolutely nothing other than taking a lot of shots and having low FG % while contributing nothing to winning basketball.

He's only good when he's surrounded by other great players, and all he has to do is catch and shoot.

Let's be real, Smart will have a fruitful career in the NBA. I would bet if Smart and Smith were drafted in the same class, Smith probably would someone we would proclaim as a bust.

Smart has developed along nicely. He has a nifty floater, his passing while still the same numbers has actually improved. He's making better passes.

I would also mention that once we get a better defending big that can switch on everything, (maybe Robert Williams) it'll take the pressure off of Smart on guarding on high screens.

[ozgod]

The value in a player like Smart is his ability to switch and guard just about any other player he is switched onto. He is quick enough, athletic enough and strong enough to cover everyone for PGs to centers at a very high level. Having multiple players that can do this is what makes a switching defense so effective, and the Celtics are loaded with high quality defenders that can do this.

So though teams force switches, unless they then run straight iso after the switch, the ball could end up with Smart guarding the shooter. Also, Boston is adept at switching off ball to get the weakest defender onto the desired player and so even off ball Smart gets switched onto more important offensive players to guard.

Also, off ball, Smart is a tremendous defender in denying important players the ball where they want the ball or completely denying the ball going to him. That off ball, weakside defense is key when teams play inside out offense or when swinging the ball around the perimeter for the open shot.

Lastly, Smart is a tremendous defensive quarterback calling switches off ball, telling players who to pick up as the ball comes up court, making players aware of where to be. His defensive BBIQ is off the charts and his defensive vocal leadership is a giant factor.

Oh, and when teams can't or don't switch him off the ball, Smart is one of the best on ball defenders in the league. His kryptonite...small, fast, quick guards. Everyone has a weakness. We can live with his given he is outstanding defensively in every other way.

I would add that this is probably also one main reason that Wanamaker has been getting minutes over someone like Tre Waters, to the consternation of many. Not the only reason, since a) Wanamaker is more composed and b) Tre isn't ready for regular NBA minutes yet but one of the main reasons. Wanamaker is build like a linebacker and can switch on to more players defensively and minimizes mismatches.