Author Topic: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?  (Read 4930 times)

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Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2019, 09:35:21 AM »

Offline timpiker

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If he becomes Jazz Hayward again, he's the best player on the team.

Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2019, 09:41:47 AM »

Offline LilRip

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If he becomes Jazz Hayward again, he's the best player on the team.

This might actually be true. As much hype as Kemba has, being a 3rd teamer and a 3-time all star, I think Jazz GH has more of an impact and is a better overall player.
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Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2019, 10:23:22 AM »

Offline gpap

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If Hayward returns to form, then it increases the chances that one of Brown, Hayward or Tatum get traded

Unless Ainge banged his head too hard after Miami drafted Herro and decides to sign 3 small forwards to long-term deals. Wouldn't surprise me ::)

Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2019, 10:25:13 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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I like the input you guys.  I'm not title or bust.  But in terms of creating the next window to compete, this season is a step back.  I will thoroughly enjoy watching this season, especially if they can lay off the lulls of settling for long jumpers. Yes, it may be interesting playoff run and the Celtics could shake things up.  Hayward definitely can help this team to be successful if he plays well right away.

The main reason why I bring this idea up is the timeline that Ainge is using to work his decisions.  The worse Hayward plays, the more likely he is an expiring next season because he'll pick up his option.  This bodes well for Ainge making a big-time deal to add ideally a big to a Tatum-Walker core.  I expect the chance big names to potentially free up this season is less than the next season. 

The better Hayward does, the more likely he opts out and asks for another 3+1 Max deal (a la Horford).  I can't honestly see the Celtics paying him if they know this current core is missing that 'horford' player that cements the team together.

So in the end, I would prefer the extra success went to Brown because I think 2020/21 is a better opportunity to add superior talent than selling this season.
How would it be a step back?  Because we end up with pick 20 instead of 10?  So what?

Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2019, 10:25:14 AM »

Offline Big333223

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This feels like over-thinking.

Does our players playing better even matter? Yes, it does.
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Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2019, 12:20:26 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The team is flawed and raw that is already unreasonable to suggest this a competitive season, not to taking away any general enjoyment of watching, as the projections have this team at around .500. Where does that lead us on rebuilding?

I haven't seen hardly any projections that put the Celts at around .500.
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Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2019, 12:36:00 PM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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What projections have us at .500? The lowest prediction I've seen apart from posters on this board was 46 wins.

Vegas has us generally in the 49-50 win range, 8th overall.

Gordon Hayward is easily an all star if he regains his 2017 form, and if he does we're probably no worse than a 4 seed. We might be dogs to the Bucks or Sixers, but neither team represents some difficult to climb mountain. If the chemistry is there and Hayward is back, we'll win 50+ games and have a shot to get to the finals.

Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2019, 12:37:41 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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This feels like over-thinking.

Does our players playing better even matter? Yes, it does.
My sentiment too.  I applaud the OP for some good thoughts regarding trades, but it's just too early to think that way.

Quote
It's not a zero sum where if Hayward plays well Jaylen or Jayson won't. Hayward is a team oriented player and unselfish (sometimes excessively so). Hayward playing well should have an amplifying effect on the team.
Agreed.  It's not a binary proposition.  This team has pretty good depth (not quite as much as last year, though it's easy to argue that that was "too much" depth.) which is essential for both regular season (e.g., load management) and playoffs.

Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2019, 02:25:16 PM »

Offline 18isGREATERthan72

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I appreciate the thought put into your post, but I completely disagree with the premise of it.  When I watched the preseason game, I thought Hayward looked really good.  I feel like he attacked the basket in a way I remember seeing him do in Utah 2-3 times in the first quarter alone, and I feel like I only saw him do that 2-3 times all of last year.

Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2019, 05:36:50 PM »

Offline Scottiej23

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Still waiting to see a thunderous throwdown from Gordon. That, to me, will be the biggest indicator he is anywhere close to being back and is comfortable on the court and in his body.

Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2019, 12:24:56 AM »

Offline GRADYCOLNON

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This is all very good.  People want Hayward returning to form because it makes us better (also seems like hesitation on Brown and Tatum, but more so Brown) for this season.

So, with elite play from Hayward this season, where would that put us after this fiscal season?  He'll have earned a new contract.  Is he someone the Celtics are going to commit another 3 to 4 seasons of max money? 

I think he is a viable core member of a title team.  But the team needs a big guy of max contract impact to enter a serious bid.

Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2019, 12:58:32 AM »

Offline ozgod

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This is all very good.  People want Hayward returning to form because it makes us better (also seems like hesitation on Brown and Tatum, but more so Brown) for this season.

So, with elite play from Hayward this season, where would that put us after this fiscal season?  He'll have earned a new contract.  Is he someone the Celtics are going to commit another 3 to 4 seasons of max money? 

I think he is a viable core member of a title team.  But the team needs a big guy of max contract impact to enter a serious bid.

Well if he plays as an elite player and returns to being an All Star I would assume he would have earned his contract. Whether it is another 4 seasons of max money remains to be seen. I can see shades of what happened to Horford happening, where they offer him less for a longer contract. Ainge typically plays hardball when it comes to aging players, even though Gordon would be 3 years younger than Al at 30 at the end of this season. It would then become up to him as to whether he takes it or not.

Your fear seems to be that he will play too well and we will have to spend money on him that then can't be spent on someone else at the risk of him walking away and leaving us with nothing when he hits free agency. The way I look at it is that if he plays well, then we have an asset that can help us. And if he returns to All Star form and we extend him then we have an asset that is worth more than it was at the start of the year, which we can then either keep or trade elsewhere. The alternative would be for him to play badly, underperform his contract, be of no help to us this year and then become difficult to offload.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 01:12:55 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Does Hayward returning to form even matter?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2019, 06:31:12 PM »

Offline GRADYCOLNON

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Your fear seems to be that he will play too well and we will have to spend money on him that then can't be spent on someone else at the risk of him walking away and leaving us with nothing when he hits free agency. The way I look at it is that if he plays well, then we have an asset that can help us. And if he returns to All Star form and we extend him then we have an asset that is worth more than it was at the start of the year, which we can then either keep or trade elsewhere. The alternative would be for him to play badly, underperform his contract, be of no help to us this year and then become difficult to offload.

If building a long term window is still part of the goal, maintaining the stores of assets is imperative.  Hayward simplifies any star transfer relative to any other trade package the Celtics can offer.  It makes taking a risk more palatable so the future isn't spoiled, as was a huge concern with recent attempts to bring in stars. My fear is that Hayward can no longer be a trade asset when the Celtics make their move.  The timing is the concern.

This season the potential pool of available stars primarily consists of Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Bradley Beal, and Andre Drummond.  Not bad names but I vividly see them not answering the holes the Celtics need filled.  Someone else midway through the season could become a new source, but my impression is that options following this season would be more fruitful.

This means I want him back for at least the next season. The two options are simply he opts in or the Celtics re-sign him to a three plus one deal for a lot of money.  The hesitation to commit is rooted is how it changes his status as an asset.  In my opinion, it could ruin the chances of using him in trades, which is why I prefer him exercising the player option.  Unless a team trading their star wants to stay competitive, instead of rebuilding, Hayward, at 30 years old, without an expiring deal no longer facilitates what that team is searching for. Any limitation like that would make him a central part of the Celtics near future, which isn't a bad thing, but making the necessary upgrade would shift the responsibility solely to numerous loose and cheap, young assets, supposedly keeping open the Celtics future extension of any window.

To your points about his success.  Hayward succeeding, as you said, is good for being an asset.  His failure, likewise, is bad for him as an asset.  How that fits to my line is not entirely clear.  The defining line is unlikely to be binary, as others have pointed out.  Playing somewhere in that spectrum is likely to happen.  At what point does he bet on himself by opting out?  I'm starting to think this is likely as it negates the Celtics' control over his future.