What does your ideal second unit look like next season?

[jambr380]

We can agree to disagree. I by no means think that Theis, Wanamaker, or Poirier were brought into make a major impact, but - because of their age and experience - they are expected to make an immediate impact in their back-up/3rd string roles. If that wasn't the case, Danny would have instead just added 3 athletic 19 years olds and hoped it clicked for one of them. Unlike Langford and TL, they are not here for their potential.

[Hoopvortex]

Carsen Edwards
Marcus Smurt
Semi Ojeleye
Robert Williams
French Big Man

?

The whole idea of a "second unit" is an abstraction. It's a reality for coaches, because 5-on-5 play is an important part of practice. But the reality in a game is that there's a rotation, and this abstract "second unit" is virtually never on the floor together.

So I'm going to answer this question by ranking the players 1-10.  This is not a ranking of how "good" these players are (those kinds of things wind up being a long dark trip down the rabbit hole). It also doesn't mean that I'm predicting a ten-man rotation - I'm not. And this is pretty close to a ranking of how many minutes each player will get, though it's likely that, as in recent seasons, the 6th man could have more minutes than one of the starters (I chose Smart for that role, as he's done in the past, but there are good arguments for Brown or Hayward...). In any case 1-5 are the starters, and 6-10 are the five most likely to get minutes after 1-5.

Clear as mud? Here we go.

1 Kemba Walker - like Kyrie, and like Isaiah Thomas before him, his ability to move the ball and create good shots will mean that he leads the team in minutes. That doesn't make him the "best" player - or mean that he'll score the most points. In fact it might just be better if he didn't.

2 Jayson Tatum - getting him plenty of good shots is a priority. The work he did in Summer 2018 to build iso skills was valuable but let's dial it back and get him better integrated.

3 Jaylen Brown - who comes off the bench, of Brown, Smart, or Hayward? I can see arguments for any of them, and they've all done it in the last couple of seasons. The coaching staff have praised Jaylen for accepting his role off the bench, for being a "rocket" when he comes off the bench, and for his lack of ego in accepting the role.

4 Gordon Hayward - as a coach recently said, “Look, the kids are the key. We need Jayson and Jaylen to be our dogs. They need to be badasses. We know Kemba is gonna be great. Our bigs are all skilled in different ways. But, Gordon is going to be the dude who unlocks everything. He’s so skilled in all facets of the game."  Of Brown, Smart, and Hayward, I'm predicting that Hayward is least likely to come off the bench.

5 Enes Kanter - Opposing coaches are going to automatically want to put the Celtics in 1-5 pick and rolls. We'll see how this goes... Boston has been one of the top teams in the Brad Stevens era for defending the 3-pt line, so maybe Kanter dropping back all the time will work... On the other hand Boston's mid-range game just became more productive because of all the pressure that Enes puts on the offensive glass.

6 Marcus Smart - I'm thinking that we'll see more of the style that Brad developed in the IT era, with Smart coming off the bench and Kemba playing off the ball. Could be that it would work better to have Smart starting to keep the team defense organized, now that Horford is gone, bringing Hayward or Brown off the bench.

7 Daniel Theis - first big off the bench.  I see people proposing Poirier in this role, and I have to admit that I just don't know enough about him. But Theis gives you rim-protection and outside shooting, and he improved substantially from year 1 to year 2 (I've seen people claim the contrary, but that's frankly mystifying; usually when such claims are made only a few things are being compared, like FG% or something; but Theis shot .388 from 3 last year - he's beginning to stake a claim to unicorn status).

8 Carsen Edwards - yes, he's only a rookie, and he'll take some lumps.  But he's perfectly suited to take over the Terry Rozier role of raising the tempo off the bench, shooting with range, and creating shots off the dribble; and with Terry gone, a big opportunity for him is available, and he appears to be the only one on the roster who can do it.  I'd throw him into the fire and see if he can swim.

9 Semi Ojeleye - like Theis, he showed a substantial improvement from year one to year two. In his case, the big growth areas were team and individual defense, and attacking closeouts with the dribble, and finishing at the rim. He got the hang of when to help (too eager to help one pass away in his rookie season, for example), and was getting up under his man and in his airspace (he was already terrific at staying in front). He's got a repertoire around the basket, including moves that get him to the other side of the rim and using it as protection, getting the ball up high at a difficult angle; like Smart, his effectiveness at the rim took a big leap forward.

10 Robert Williams III - the team thinks that he can be special, even as they temper expectations. I predict that he won't be in the rotation to start the season, but he'll get there by the All-Star break.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Carsen Edwards
Marcus Smurt
Semi Ojeleye
Robert Williams
French Big Man

?

The whole idea of a "second unit" is an abstraction. It's a reality for coaches, because 5-on-5 play is an important part of practice. But the reality in a game is that there's a rotation, and this abstract "second unit" is virtually never on the floor together.

So I'm going to answer this question by ranking the players 1-10.  This is not a ranking of how "good" these players are (those kinds of things wind up being a long dark trip down the rabbit hole). It also doesn't mean that I'm predicting a ten-man rotation - I'm not. And this is pretty close to a ranking of how many minutes each player will get, though it's likely that, as in recent seasons, the 6th man could have more minutes than one of the starters (I chose Smart for that role, as he's done in the past, but there are good arguments for Brown or Hayward...). In any case 1-5 are the starters, and 6-10 are the five most likely to get minutes after 1-5.

Clear as mud? Here we go.

1 Kemba Walker - like Kyrie, and like Isaiah Thomas before him, his ability to move the ball and create good shots will mean that he leads the team in minutes. That doesn't make him the "best" player - or mean that he'll score the most points. In fact it might just be better if he didn't.

2 Jayson Tatum - getting him plenty of good shots is a priority. The work he did in Summer 2018 to build iso skills was valuable but let's dial it back and get him better integrated.

3 Jaylen Brown - who comes off the bench, of Brown, Smart, or Hayward? I can see arguments for any of them, and they've all done it in the last couple of seasons. The coaching staff have praised Jaylen for accepting his role off the bench, for being a "rocket" when he comes off the bench, and for his lack of ego in accepting the role.

4 Gordon Hayward - as a coach recently said, “Look, the kids are the key. We need Jayson and Jaylen to be our dogs. They need to be badasses. We know Kemba is gonna be great. Our bigs are all skilled in different ways. But, Gordon is going to be the dude who unlocks everything. He’s so skilled in all facets of the game."  Of Brown, Smart, and Hayward, I'm predicting that Hayward is least likely to come off the bench.

5 Enes Kanter - Opposing coaches are going to automatically want to put the Celtics in 1-5 pick and rolls. We'll see how this goes... Boston has been one of the top teams in the Brad Stevens era for defending the 3-pt line, so maybe Kanter dropping back all the time will work... On the other hand Boston's mid-range game just became more productive because of all the pressure that Enes puts on the offensive glass.

6 Marcus Smart - I'm thinking that we'll see more of the style that Brad developed in the IT era, with Smart coming off the bench and Kemba playing off the ball. Could be that it would work better to have Smart starting to keep the team defense organized, now that Horford is gone, bringing Hayward or Brown off the bench.

7 Daniel Theis - first big off the bench.  I see people proposing Poirier in this role, and I have to admit that I just don't know enough about him. But Theis gives you rim-protection and outside shooting, and he improved substantially from year 1 to year 2 (I've seen people claim the contrary, but that's frankly mystifying; usually when such claims are made only a few things are being compared, like FG% or something; but Theis shot .388 from 3 last year - he's beginning to stake a claim to unicorn status).

8 Carsen Edwards - yes, he's only a rookie, and he'll take some lumps.  But he's perfectly suited to take over the Terry Rozier role of raising the tempo off the bench, shooting with range, and creating shots off the dribble; and with Terry gone, a big opportunity for him is available, and he appears to be the only one on the roster who can do it.  I'd throw him into the fire and see if he can swim.

9 Semi Ojeleye - like Theis, he showed a substantial improvement from year one to year two. In his case, the big growth areas were team and individual defense, and attacking closeouts with the dribble, and finishing at the rim. He got the hang of when to help (too eager to help one pass away in his rookie season, for example), and was getting up under his man and in his airspace (he was already terrific at staying in front). He's got a repertoire around the basket, including moves that get him to the other side of the rim and using it as protection, getting the ball up high at a difficult angle; like Smart, his effectiveness at the rim took a big leap forward.

10 Robert Williams III - the team thinks that he can be special, even as they temper expectations. I predict that he won't be in the rotation to start the season, but he'll get there by the All-Star break.

Why won't anyone talk about Brad Wannamaker. He took good care of the ball and shot high percentages on admittedly short minutes. Perhaps the time has come for him to become a proper rotation minutes.

[RodyTur10]

Carsen Edwards
Marcus Smurt
Semi Ojeleye
Robert Williams
French Big Man

?

The whole idea of a "second unit" is an abstraction. It's a reality for coaches, because 5-on-5 play is an important part of practice. But the reality in a game is that there's a rotation, and this abstract "second unit" is virtually never on the floor together.

So I'm going to answer this question by ranking the players 1-10.  This is not a ranking of how "good" these players are (those kinds of things wind up being a long dark trip down the rabbit hole). It also doesn't mean that I'm predicting a ten-man rotation - I'm not. And this is pretty close to a ranking of how many minutes each player will get, though it's likely that, as in recent seasons, the 6th man could have more minutes than one of the starters (I chose Smart for that role, as he's done in the past, but there are good arguments for Brown or Hayward...). In any case 1-5 are the starters, and 6-10 are the five most likely to get minutes after 1-5.

Clear as mud? Here we go.

1 Kemba Walker - like Kyrie, and like Isaiah Thomas before him, his ability to move the ball and create good shots will mean that he leads the team in minutes. That doesn't make him the "best" player - or mean that he'll score the most points. In fact it might just be better if he didn't.

2 Jayson Tatum - getting him plenty of good shots is a priority. The work he did in Summer 2018 to build iso skills was valuable but let's dial it back and get him better integrated.

3 Jaylen Brown - who comes off the bench, of Brown, Smart, or Hayward? I can see arguments for any of them, and they've all done it in the last couple of seasons. The coaching staff have praised Jaylen for accepting his role off the bench, for being a "rocket" when he comes off the bench, and for his lack of ego in accepting the role.

4 Gordon Hayward - as a coach recently said, “Look, the kids are the key. We need Jayson and Jaylen to be our dogs. They need to be badasses. We know Kemba is gonna be great. Our bigs are all skilled in different ways. But, Gordon is going to be the dude who unlocks everything. He’s so skilled in all facets of the game."  Of Brown, Smart, and Hayward, I'm predicting that Hayward is least likely to come off the bench.

5 Enes Kanter - Opposing coaches are going to automatically want to put the Celtics in 1-5 pick and rolls. We'll see how this goes... Boston has been one of the top teams in the Brad Stevens era for defending the 3-pt line, so maybe Kanter dropping back all the time will work... On the other hand Boston's mid-range game just became more productive because of all the pressure that Enes puts on the offensive glass.

6 Marcus Smart - I'm thinking that we'll see more of the style that Brad developed in the IT era, with Smart coming off the bench and Kemba playing off the ball. Could be that it would work better to have Smart starting to keep the team defense organized, now that Horford is gone, bringing Hayward or Brown off the bench.

7 Daniel Theis - first big off the bench.  I see people proposing Poirier in this role, and I have to admit that I just don't know enough about him. But Theis gives you rim-protection and outside shooting, and he improved substantially from year 1 to year 2 (I've seen people claim the contrary, but that's frankly mystifying; usually when such claims are made only a few things are being compared, like FG% or something; but Theis shot .388 from 3 last year - he's beginning to stake a claim to unicorn status).

8 Carsen Edwards - yes, he's only a rookie, and he'll take some lumps.  But he's perfectly suited to take over the Terry Rozier role of raising the tempo off the bench, shooting with range, and creating shots off the dribble; and with Terry gone, a big opportunity for him is available, and he appears to be the only one on the roster who can do it.  I'd throw him into the fire and see if he can swim.

9 Semi Ojeleye - like Theis, he showed a substantial improvement from year one to year two. In his case, the big growth areas were team and individual defense, and attacking closeouts with the dribble, and finishing at the rim. He got the hang of when to help (too eager to help one pass away in his rookie season, for example), and was getting up under his man and in his airspace (he was already terrific at staying in front). He's got a repertoire around the basket, including moves that get him to the other side of the rim and using it as protection, getting the ball up high at a difficult angle; like Smart, his effectiveness at the rim took a big leap forward.

10 Robert Williams III - the team thinks that he can be special, even as they temper expectations. I predict that he won't be in the rotation to start the season, but he'll get there by the All-Star break.

Why won't anyone talk about Brad Wannamaker. He took good care of the ball and shot high percentages on admittedly short minutes. Perhaps the time has come for him to become a proper rotation minutes.

I agree. Wanamaker seems to be capable of being a reliable back-up point guard. With Walker's signing he's one of the guys that sees opportunities decrease.

I was fine with Smart being a starter and having Wanamaker as (one of the) back-up(s). Walker is obviously a very good player, but considering our roster I'd much rather spent that money on a PF/C or multiple big men.

[Surferdad]

Won't actually exist.  This ain't hockey.  Have fun though!

[trickybilly]

Smart as the sixth man

Carsen Edwards getting a few minutes here and there to do his waterbug scoring thing

Semi getting minutes at the 3 & 4 depending on matchups

Langford getting a few minutes on the wing against the opponent's bench

Theis playing regular minutes at the 4 and 5

Grant Williams getting some decent minutes at the 4 depending on matchups

Poirier getting some minutes at the 5 depending on matchups

Rob Williams and Tremont Waters in garbage time

I thought I was literally the only debbie on TimeL.

Even I thinks he gets much much more than garbage time (and deserves it).

[W8ting2McHale]

With so many young and inexperienced guys vying for developmental  time on the court, the backend of the rotation is going to be very fluid.

Brad likes to run out a lot of different lineups early in the season to see how guys play together in games, so I don’t expect this year to be any different. I do expect some of those guys will be on a shorter leash than others though and lots of wondering here how come so-and-so is in Brad’s doghouse.

[Hoopvortex]

Carsen Edwards
Marcus Smurt
Semi Ojeleye
Robert Williams
French Big Man

?

The whole idea of a "second unit" is an abstraction. It's a reality for coaches, because 5-on-5 play is an important part of practice. But the reality in a game is that there's a rotation, and this abstract "second unit" is virtually never on the floor together.

So I'm going to answer this question by ranking the players 1-10.  This is not a ranking of how "good" these players are (those kinds of things wind up being a long dark trip down the rabbit hole). It also doesn't mean that I'm predicting a ten-man rotation - I'm not. And this is pretty close to a ranking of how many minutes each player will get, though it's likely that, as in recent seasons, the 6th man could have more minutes than one of the starters (I chose Smart for that role, as he's done in the past, but there are good arguments for Brown or Hayward...). In any case 1-5 are the starters, and 6-10 are the five most likely to get minutes after 1-5.

Clear as mud? Here we go.

1 Kemba Walker - like Kyrie, and like Isaiah Thomas before him, his ability to move the ball and create good shots will mean that he leads the team in minutes. That doesn't make him the "best" player - or mean that he'll score the most points. In fact it might just be better if he didn't.

2 Jayson Tatum - getting him plenty of good shots is a priority. The work he did in Summer 2018 to build iso skills was valuable but let's dial it back and get him better integrated.

3 Jaylen Brown - who comes off the bench, of Brown, Smart, or Hayward? I can see arguments for any of them, and they've all done it in the last couple of seasons. The coaching staff have praised Jaylen for accepting his role off the bench, for being a "rocket" when he comes off the bench, and for his lack of ego in accepting the role.

4 Gordon Hayward - as a coach recently said, “Look, the kids are the key. We need Jayson and Jaylen to be our dogs. They need to be badasses. We know Kemba is gonna be great. Our bigs are all skilled in different ways. But, Gordon is going to be the dude who unlocks everything. He’s so skilled in all facets of the game."  Of Brown, Smart, and Hayward, I'm predicting that Hayward is least likely to come off the bench.

5 Enes Kanter - Opposing coaches are going to automatically want to put the Celtics in 1-5 pick and rolls. We'll see how this goes... Boston has been one of the top teams in the Brad Stevens era for defending the 3-pt line, so maybe Kanter dropping back all the time will work... On the other hand Boston's mid-range game just became more productive because of all the pressure that Enes puts on the offensive glass.

6 Marcus Smart - I'm thinking that we'll see more of the style that Brad developed in the IT era, with Smart coming off the bench and Kemba playing off the ball. Could be that it would work better to have Smart starting to keep the team defense organized, now that Horford is gone, bringing Hayward or Brown off the bench.

7 Daniel Theis - first big off the bench.  I see people proposing Poirier in this role, and I have to admit that I just don't know enough about him. But Theis gives you rim-protection and outside shooting, and he improved substantially from year 1 to year 2 (I've seen people claim the contrary, but that's frankly mystifying; usually when such claims are made only a few things are being compared, like FG% or something; but Theis shot .388 from 3 last year - he's beginning to stake a claim to unicorn status).

8 Carsen Edwards - yes, he's only a rookie, and he'll take some lumps.  But he's perfectly suited to take over the Terry Rozier role of raising the tempo off the bench, shooting with range, and creating shots off the dribble; and with Terry gone, a big opportunity for him is available, and he appears to be the only one on the roster who can do it.  I'd throw him into the fire and see if he can swim.

9 Semi Ojeleye - like Theis, he showed a substantial improvement from year one to year two. In his case, the big growth areas were team and individual defense, and attacking closeouts with the dribble, and finishing at the rim. He got the hang of when to help (too eager to help one pass away in his rookie season, for example), and was getting up under his man and in his airspace (he was already terrific at staying in front). He's got a repertoire around the basket, including moves that get him to the other side of the rim and using it as protection, getting the ball up high at a difficult angle; like Smart, his effectiveness at the rim took a big leap forward.

10 Robert Williams III - the team thinks that he can be special, even as they temper expectations. I predict that he won't be in the rotation to start the season, but he'll get there by the All-Star break.

Why won't anyone talk about Brad Wannamaker. He took good care of the ball and shot high percentages on admittedly short minutes. Perhaps the time has come for him to become a proper rotation minutes.

I for one am positive about Wanamaker, and happy to talk about him. I didn’t include him on my list because he’s not likely a top-10 player (in terms of minutes) on the team.  Having said that, he performs the essential role of third point guard (“Break glass in case of fire”).

[KG Living Legend]

 Starters by playoffs. Guaranteed championship with these starters.

Tacko
Timelord
Tatum
Brown
Kemba

Bench

Kanter
GWill
Romeo
Smart
Carsen Edwards

[nickagneta]

 Starters by playoffs. Guaranteed championship with these starters.

Tacko
Timelord
Tatum
Brown
Kemba

Bench

Kanter
GWill
Romeo
Smart
Carsen Edwards

Not sure you are serious or not with this, but it is, whether you meant it to be or not, pretty funny.

Guaranteed championship? With this lineup? And apparently Hayward was traded for what exactly? Draft picks or players not good enough to beat out the "might as well be a rookie", Timelord,  and 4 other rookies in your 10 man rotation?

That lineup is a guaranteed title? More likely, pushing hard to make the playoffs.

[Vermont Green]

 Starters by playoffs. Guaranteed championship with these starters.

Tacko
Timelord
Tatum
Brown
Kemba

Bench

Kanter
GWill
Romeo
Smart
Carsen Edwards

Not sure you are serious or not with this, but it is, whether you meant it to be or not, pretty funny.

Guaranteed championship? With this lineup? And apparently Hayward was traded for what exactly? Draft picks or players not good enough to beat out the "might as well be a rookie", Timelord,  and 4 other rookies in your 10 man rotation?

That lineup is a guaranteed title? More likely, pushing hard to make the playoffs.

I think (hope?) what he is saying is that if RWill and TFall play well enough to earn starting roles, we will be good enough to contend for a title.  I don't know where Hayward fits into this plan though.  Unless traded, he will be at worst the 6th man. 

[Walker Wiggle]

Miscellaneous thoughts:

1) Too much Carsen Edwards love. I like this pick as much as you do, but we haven't even seen him play a preseason game yet. There's a chance he comes in and plays big minutes a la Van Vleet in TOR, but you can't count on that for now. Wannamaker will play more minutes in '19-20 than this kid, I'm guessing.

2) Same for Poirier. Hard to judged this kid on the basis of his performance in Europe. I think it's far more likely that Theis will take more minutes, simply because Theis has proven himself in the NBA. Similarly, I expect Theis to merit minutes over Robert Williams.

3) Grant Williams will get more minutes than Semi. I don't think Grant Williams is a typical rookie. I think Brad will instantly trust this guy, similar to the way he instantly trusted Marcus Smart as a rookie. I think GWill will quickly outplay Semi.

4) Romeo will essentially have a red-shirt year. That's my guess. The hand injury slowing him, plus the fact that they are re-making his jumpshot, tells me there are expecting very little from him this season. He's also only 19, keep that in mind. I'm high on this kid, I just don't think this is the year for him.

So, I think the top players in terms of minutes will end up being Walker, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Kanter, Smart, Wanamaker, Theis, and Grant Williams. That's an 8-man rotation, with sprinklings of minutes to whoever else distinguishes themselves.

[Hoopvortex]

1) Too much Carsen Edwards love. I like this pick as much as you do, but we haven't even seen him play a preseason game yet. There's a chance he comes in and plays big minutes a la Van Vleet in TOR, but you can't count on that for now. Wannamaker will play more minutes in '19-20 than this kid, I'm guessing.

You’re right to be cautious, no doubt.

I’m more gung ho than you on him.

I love the quotation from an unnamed Celtics executive: “Carsen had a first round grade for us and we paid him accordingly! (laughs)...”

He’s going to be really good. Has quite a repertoire of moves to get himself free, great laterals, good left hand, solid undercarriage to guard bigger players, squares up and releases quickly, aggressive guarding his man.

I’m usually skeptical about rookies getting in the rotation, but he’s got a good chance - he has the skill set to play Terry Rozier‘s role - and, just as important, there doesn’t seem to be anyone in front of him for that role. Like you, I have a positive opinion of Brad Wanamaker; but Carsen has the speed to raise the tempo off the bench, much as Terry did. I also think that it just might be possible that Edwards can shoot better than Rozier.

Incidentally, I am surprised as much as I am pleased to hear all the appreciation for Brad Wanamaker, which several posters have shown recently.

2) Same for Poirier. Hard to judged this kid on the basis of his performance in Europe. I think it's far more likely that Theis will take more minutes, simply because Theis has proven himself in the NBA. Similarly, I expect Theis to merit minutes over Robert Williams.

I suspect that you’re right about Theis being in front of him. But, like you, I haven’t seen enough of him to be comfortable judging.

3) Grant Williams will get more minutes than Semi. I don't think Grant Williams is a typical rookie. I think Brad will instantly trust this guy, similar to the way he instantly trusted Marcus Smart as a rookie. I think GWill will quickly outplay Semi.

I think that you have correctly identified Grant Williams’ main competition. And though you urged caution about Edwards’ playing time, pointing out that we have not even seen him in a preseason game yet, you have no such reservations about Grant Williams - even going so far as to put him in your eight-man rotation, as you do later on in your post.

Your prediction is that he will “quickly“ outplay Ojeleye – meaning something like, averaging more minutes by Christmas, perhaps?

Here I am betting that you’re wrong – though, having said that, I think that the Celtics got a real find with this draft pick.

4) Romeo will essentially have a red-shirt year. That’s my guess. The hand injury slowing him, plus the fact that they are re-making his jumpshot, tells me there are expecting very little from him this season. He's also only 19, keep that in mind. I'm high on this kid, I just don't think this is the year for him.

I’d bet you are right on this. In addition to what you mentioned here, he also faces having to beat out a number of other wings who all deserve minutes.

So, I think the top players in terms of minutes will end up being Walker, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Kanter, Smart, Wanamaker, Theis, and Grant Williams. That's an 8-man rotation, with sprinklings of minutes to whoever else distinguishes themselves.

When you say “end up”, you mean the playoffs?