The Ultimate “What If...?” = Kyrie for Kawhi Last Year

[Jvalin]

Just for fun

last season's roster

Smart - Rozier - Wanamaker
Brown - Wes Matthews (via the buyout market)
Kawhi - Hayward - Semi
Tatum - Morris - Theis - Yabu
Horford - Baynes - R. Williams

2019 NBA champs: the Boston Celtics!

Offseason moves:
1. Kawhi re-signes with the C's (cause it's a hypothetical, so why not?)
2. we pay Horford that extra 4th year and we keep him in Boston
3. gimme Kanter with the MLE

this season's roster

Smart (32) - Edwards (16) - Wanamaker - Waters
Brown (30) - Langford (12)
Kawhi (30) - Hayward (30) - Semi
Tatum (30) - G. Williams (12) - Theis
Horford (28) - Kanter (20) - R. Williams

(chances are we wouldn't have used 4 picks, but I wanted to keep changes to the minimum)

[Moranis]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

dear lord no.  just no.

Kawhi was not going to resign here.  You're giving up a top prospect, an all-NBA defender and a prime scorer off the bench for a known 1-year rental and there's absolutely no guarantee Kawhi meshes well with Kyrie to achieve a title.  On top of that, this offseason we're now without Kawhi, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart leaving as our only 'prime' assets a regressed Tatum and hopefully-still-recovering Hayward as our lure to try to sign Kemba.   

This is a swing-for-the-fences move that would have lasted just one season and left the franchise a wreck going forward.

Maybe or maybe not.  By eliminating a lot of the clutter it was far more likely that Irving liked playing here and stayed.  And Kawhi would have stayed in Toronto if they could have landed another star, here Boston would already have that star.  I think there is a better than 50% chance that both Irving and Leonard would have stayed (assuming they liked each other of course), but if not, oh well you have a title (or a final's appearance almost certainly) and you move on and build around Tatum.  Smart is a solid role player, but he isn't moving the needle.  Brown could be a solid all star player or he might not, either way he isn't a build around player.  It was worth the gamble, especially when your star is an odd duck and it is a walk year. 

And I pose this honestly, which way is the team better positioned to win a title, with a full rebuild or this half-assed crap Ainge has been doing for years?  I honestly think the team might be better off long term by not having Kemba on it and just going into full bore rebuild right now.  The goal is winning titles, the current team is destined for mediocrity unless Tatum hits, and if Tatum hits wouldn't it better to have more young potential stars to build around Tatum with and that better fit his timeline (and that isn't happening in the current state of mediocrity).

My fandom is simple, I want my team to be one of 3 things (in order of preference): (1) a legit contender; (2) a young team that clearly has the components to be a legit contender; or (3) in full bore rebuild/asset collection mode.  This current team is none of those things.  It is simply riding along in mediocrity.  They will almost certainly make the playoffs, but are far from a given of winning even one playoff series.  They could have everything go right and at best be the 3rd best team in the conference.  I can't see them falling out of the playoffs, but I wouldn't rule out the 8th seed and it is certainly possible given the poorly constructed roster and all of the moving parts is an epic fail and does miss the playoffs (again I don't think that is likely, but it wouldn't shock me either). 

At the end of the day Ainge has by and large failed since he made the Tatum/Fultz trade.  He failed in not pulling the trigger on Paul George.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Jimmy Butler.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Kawhi Leonard.  He failed on pulling the trigger on Irving and then not following that up by making the team a real contender (if he wasn't going to go all in around Irving, then he shouldn't have made that trade to begin with).   

your "elmination of clutter" is costing us 2 good young players for a 1-year rental.  that's a losing deal.  you're blatantly speculating on Kyrie staying to justify your deal when there's nothing suggesting he would have stayed knowing Kawhi was headed out of town.  there's also no guarantee that the dysfunction from last year disappears with that deal -- just more speculation on your part.

your perspective on the team being half-assed is plainly your opinion.  The Hayward injury screwed up Ainge's plans for a title.  no one could have foreseen that happening.  I'm not for a full tear-down at this point.  we've got good players, some with some upside still to be realized as well as some decent draftees and draft picks.   we're not dead in the water or middling as you claim.  we may not be contenders but the East really only has 2 teams that I'd say have more talent than the C's based on the current roster and if Hayward does improve for this season, the C's could very well win the conference with a shot in the finals. 

I don't disagree that I want the team to contend or at least be in the process of building to a contender but I think where we disagree is you see this current roster as failure whereas I'm not ready to dismiss this team's chances yet.  I certainly wouldn't have done an all-or-nothing trade that would have lasted one season before plunging the team into a more certain wheel of mediocrity for several years as it runs out the clock on Hayward's deal just hoping Tatum becomes what everyone hopes he can be.  your proposed trade targets of Kawhi, PG or Butler would have left us in all likelihood.  I'm not going to fault Ainge for not throwing away assets for 1-year rentals.

but it is ok to throw them away for a 2 year rental of a significantly lesser player with a vast injury history.  That is what I find strange.  Let's throw away a top 5 MVP finisher (albeit injured), a solid youngish role player, a talented rookie, and a premium draft pick for Irving and then after doing that let's not actually make the team a contender.  It just doesn't make sense.  Neither does the weird blind support for Ainge.  He has been trying to rebuild and contend at the same time for years, and he is failing at both.  At some point, ownership needs to move on from this weird pattern of mediocrity the team is stuck in.  The C's are the new Hawks with no end in sight. 

[NKY fan]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

dear lord no.  just no.

Kawhi was not going to resign here.  You're giving up a top prospect, an all-NBA defender and a prime scorer off the bench for a known 1-year rental and there's absolutely no guarantee Kawhi meshes well with Kyrie to achieve a title.  On top of that, this offseason we're now without Kawhi, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart leaving as our only 'prime' assets a regressed Tatum and hopefully-still-recovering Hayward as our lure to try to sign Kemba.   

This is a swing-for-the-fences move that would have lasted just one season and left the franchise a wreck going forward.

Maybe or maybe not.  By eliminating a lot of the clutter it was far more likely that Irving liked playing here and stayed.  And Kawhi would have stayed in Toronto if they could have landed another star, here Boston would already have that star.  I think there is a better than 50% chance that both Irving and Leonard would have stayed (assuming they liked each other of course), but if not, oh well you have a title (or a final's appearance almost certainly) and you move on and build around Tatum.  Smart is a solid role player, but he isn't moving the needle.  Brown could be a solid all star player or he might not, either way he isn't a build around player.  It was worth the gamble, especially when your star is an odd duck and it is a walk year. 

And I pose this honestly, which way is the team better positioned to win a title, with a full rebuild or this half-assed crap Ainge has been doing for years?  I honestly think the team might be better off long term by not having Kemba on it and just going into full bore rebuild right now.  The goal is winning titles, the current team is destined for mediocrity unless Tatum hits, and if Tatum hits wouldn't it better to have more young potential stars to build around Tatum with and that better fit his timeline (and that isn't happening in the current state of mediocrity).

My fandom is simple, I want my team to be one of 3 things (in order of preference): (1) a legit contender; (2) a young team that clearly has the components to be a legit contender; or (3) in full bore rebuild/asset collection mode.  This current team is none of those things.  It is simply riding along in mediocrity.  They will almost certainly make the playoffs, but are far from a given of winning even one playoff series.  They could have everything go right and at best be the 3rd best team in the conference.  I can't see them falling out of the playoffs, but I wouldn't rule out the 8th seed and it is certainly possible given the poorly constructed roster and all of the moving parts is an epic fail and does miss the playoffs (again I don't think that is likely, but it wouldn't shock me either). 

At the end of the day Ainge has by and large failed since he made the Tatum/Fultz trade.  He failed in not pulling the trigger on Paul George.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Jimmy Butler.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Kawhi Leonard.  He failed on pulling the trigger on Irving and then not following that up by making the team a real contender (if he wasn't going to go all in around Irving, then he shouldn't have made that trade to begin with).   

your "elmination of clutter" is costing us 2 good young players for a 1-year rental.  that's a losing deal.  you're blatantly speculating on Kyrie staying to justify your deal when there's nothing suggesting he would have stayed knowing Kawhi was headed out of town.  there's also no guarantee that the dysfunction from last year disappears with that deal -- just more speculation on your part.

your perspective on the team being half-assed is plainly your opinion.  The Hayward injury screwed up Ainge's plans for a title.  no one could have foreseen that happening.  I'm not for a full tear-down at this point.  we've got good players, some with some upside still to be realized as well as some decent draftees and draft picks.   we're not dead in the water or middling as you claim.  we may not be contenders but the East really only has 2 teams that I'd say have more talent than the C's based on the current roster and if Hayward does improve for this season, the C's could very well win the conference with a shot in the finals. 

I don't disagree that I want the team to contend or at least be in the process of building to a contender but I think where we disagree is you see this current roster as failure whereas I'm not ready to dismiss this team's chances yet.  I certainly wouldn't have done an all-or-nothing trade that would have lasted one season before plunging the team into a more certain wheel of mediocrity for several years as it runs out the clock on Hayward's deal just hoping Tatum becomes what everyone hopes he can be.  your proposed trade targets of Kawhi, PG or Butler would have left us in all likelihood.  I'm not going to fault Ainge for not throwing away assets for 1-year rentals.

but it is ok to throw them away for a 2 year rental of a significantly lesser player with a vast injury history.  That is what I find strange.  Let's throw away a top 5 MVP finisher (albeit injured), a solid youngish role player, a talented rookie, and a premium draft pick for Irving and then after doing that let's not actually make the team a contender.  It just doesn't make sense.  Neither does the weird blind support for Ainge.  He has been trying to rebuild and contend at the same time for years, and he is failing at both.  At some point, ownership needs to move on from this weird pattern of mediocrity the team is stuck in.  The C's are the new Hawks with no end in sight.

I agree with you but it’s too early to ask for Danny’s head.
It’s really weird that no matter how crappy of a roster he assembles brad Stevens bails him by getting them to overachieve..
Proof of that is the disasters that Bradley and crowder (even Jordan Crawford) were after they were traded.
At some point this overachieving underdog gets old

[celticsclay]

Someone said we could finish 8th in the conference this year? I am struggling to see how it would happen?

Obviously would not be crazy to finish behind Philly or Bucks, and probably expected. Then maybe the Pacers if they get Oladipo back. Then if you really squint, maybe you think Irving plays lights out and they pass us. After that? (Where we are only in 5th at that point) What other 3 teams pass us?

Wizards, Knicks, Cavs, Hornets all appear to be absolutely the worst of the entire league. I don't think anyone imagines the bulls or hawks making 15 win improvements. The Pistons had Blake griffin play lights out last year and only won 41 games. The Raptors are expected to move Gasol and Ibaka and possibly Lowry this year to do a rebuild.

I mean, 8th would have to be like Tatum, Brown, Walker and Hayward getting injured? Walker won 39 last year where half the board can't even figure out who the second player on the was. Really wildly pessimistic prediction!

[celticsclay]

Someone said we could finish 8th in the conference this year? I am struggling to see how it would happen?

Obviously would not be crazy to finish behind Philly or Bucks, and probably expected. Then maybe the Pacers if they get Oladipo back. Then if you really squint, maybe you think Irving plays lights out and they pass us. After that? (Where we are only in 5th at that point) What other 3 teams pass us?

Wizards, Knicks, Cavs, Hornets all appear to be absolutely the worst of the entire league. I don't think anyone imagines the bulls or hawks making 15 win improvements. The Pistons had Blake griffin play lights out last year and only won 41 games. The Raptors are expected to move Gasol and Ibaka and possibly Lowry this year to do a rebuild.

I mean, 8th would have to be like Tatum, Brown, Walker and Hayward getting injured? Walker won 39 last year where half the board can't even figure out who the second player on the was. Really wildly pessimistic prediction!

Do we have a standings prediction thread? Is it time? Think all the moves are over

[Moranis]

Someone said we could finish 8th in the conference this year? I am struggling to see how it would happen?

Obviously would not be crazy to finish behind Philly or Bucks, and probably expected. Then maybe the Pacers if they get Oladipo back. Then if you really squint, maybe you think Irving plays lights out and they pass us. After that? (Where we are only in 5th at that point) What other 3 teams pass us?

Wizards, Knicks, Cavs, Hornets all appear to be absolutely the worst of the entire league. I don't think anyone imagines the bulls or hawks making 15 win improvements. The Pistons had Blake griffin play lights out last year and only won 41 games. The Raptors are expected to move Gasol and Ibaka and possibly Lowry this year to do a rebuild.

I mean, 8th would have to be like Tatum, Brown, Walker and Hayward getting injured? Walker won 39 last year where half the board can't even figure out who the second player on the was. Really wildly pessimistic prediction!

Do we have a standings prediction thread? Is it time? Think all the moves are over

start one up.  And I said could, not that it was likely (nor would I project Boston 8th - I think I have them 5th right now).  That said, I could absolutely envision a scenario where Boston limps into the playoffs as the 8th seed (with a remote possibility of missing out entirely).  In that scenario Boston's utter lack of size is disastrous all season long.  Brown, Tatum, and Hayward still don't work well.  Walker misses some time (it eventually happens to everyone).  Etc.  If that were to happen then I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Indiana, Brooklyn, Toronto, Orlando, and then one of Detroit/Miami all finish ahead of Boston (again super remote but all 8 could).  I could see all 9 of those teams (with Boston) all pretty easily being above .500 on the season (Orlando won 42, Detroit won 41, and Miami won 39 but adds Butler last year).  I really do think outside of Milwaukee and Philadelphia the East is pretty wide open and the race for 3 to 9 is going to be pretty interesting all season long.  I'd be pretty surprised if Atlanta or Chicago jumped into that next tier and think Washington is still in that mid 30's range.  I expect Cleveland, Charlotte, and New York to be pretty darn bad, but I guess you just never know how things shake out.

[dannyboy35]

I was pushing this idea to friends as soon as the Leonard stuff started turning. Partially because I love Kawhi as a player but I also never believed Kyrie was staying. I didn’t know of course but I thought he was a goner. I checked multiple times a day in hopes that Danny gotthis swap done. I actually thought it was a good lie to tell the fans he wanted to come back so it would eliminate the drama until the season was up. Then the whole Madison square garden media stuff happened. I also always felt Rozier was good ENOUGH. Still do.

[dannyboy35]

I also can’t stand Popovich , Parker and Ginobli.

[gouki88]

I also can’t stand Popovich , Parker and Ginobli.

This is an interesting take. Why?

I get not liking Parker (I don’t either)

[vjcsmoke]

Nkyfan you forget that DA is the guy who traded for Ray Allen and KG and brought a championship to Boston.  And if Perkins didn’t get hurt in the Lakers series it could easyhave been two.

Next he robs Brooklyn and sets up a treasure trove of assets to make the Celtics contenders for any big trade in the future.

I’m far from down on Ainge.  He’s not perfect but he’s still one of the best gms in the entire nba.

Celtics will use Kemba first year to evaluate all their pieces and they can still make a strong trade to improve at the deadline or next summer if a big talent opportunity becomes available.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Nkyfan you forget that DA is the guy who traded for Ray Allen and KG and brought a championship to Boston.  And if Perkins didn’t get hurt in the Lakers series it could easyhave been two.

And all of this was over 9 years ago...

Next he robs Brooklyn and sets up a treasure trove of assets to make the Celtics contenders for any big trade in the future.

And all we have left after all of this wheeling and dealing is Tatum, Brown and the Memphis pick. Meanwhile, Brooklyn has Durant and Kyrie, so did Ainge really “rob” Brooklyn?

I’m far from down on Ainge.  He’s not perfect but he’s still one of the best gms in the entire nba.

I, for one, am done with blindly believing in Ainge. 2008 was over a decade ago. The mega Nets trade was over six years ago. Ainge needs to bring us a championship in the next three years or he’s 1-19 in terms of championship seasons versus losing seasons over the course of a fifth of a century. That extrapolates to five titles (the amount Kobe has) in 100 years, a century. That’s simply not good enough for Titletown.

[GreenlyGreeny]

I'd rather have traded Brown, Smart, Morris (and filler if needed) for Kawhi/Green and paired him with Kyrie.  That would have helped a lot more with roster construction as well

dear lord no.  just no.

Kawhi was not going to resign here.  You're giving up a top prospect, an all-NBA defender and a prime scorer off the bench for a known 1-year rental and there's absolutely no guarantee Kawhi meshes well with Kyrie to achieve a title.  On top of that, this offseason we're now without Kawhi, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart leaving as our only 'prime' assets a regressed Tatum and hopefully-still-recovering Hayward as our lure to try to sign Kemba.   

This is a swing-for-the-fences move that would have lasted just one season and left the franchise a wreck going forward.

Maybe or maybe not.  By eliminating a lot of the clutter it was far more likely that Irving liked playing here and stayed.  And Kawhi would have stayed in Toronto if they could have landed another star, here Boston would already have that star.  I think there is a better than 50% chance that both Irving and Leonard would have stayed (assuming they liked each other of course), but if not, oh well you have a title (or a final's appearance almost certainly) and you move on and build around Tatum.  Smart is a solid role player, but he isn't moving the needle.  Brown could be a solid all star player or he might not, either way he isn't a build around player.  It was worth the gamble, especially when your star is an odd duck and it is a walk year. 

And I pose this honestly, which way is the team better positioned to win a title, with a full rebuild or this half-assed crap Ainge has been doing for years?  I honestly think the team might be better off long term by not having Kemba on it and just going into full bore rebuild right now.  The goal is winning titles, the current team is destined for mediocrity unless Tatum hits, and if Tatum hits wouldn't it better to have more young potential stars to build around Tatum with and that better fit his timeline (and that isn't happening in the current state of mediocrity).

My fandom is simple, I want my team to be one of 3 things (in order of preference): (1) a legit contender; (2) a young team that clearly has the components to be a legit contender; or (3) in full bore rebuild/asset collection mode.  This current team is none of those things.  It is simply riding along in mediocrity.  They will almost certainly make the playoffs, but are far from a given of winning even one playoff series.  They could have everything go right and at best be the 3rd best team in the conference.  I can't see them falling out of the playoffs, but I wouldn't rule out the 8th seed and it is certainly possible given the poorly constructed roster and all of the moving parts is an epic fail and does miss the playoffs (again I don't think that is likely, but it wouldn't shock me either). 

At the end of the day Ainge has by and large failed since he made the Tatum/Fultz trade.  He failed in not pulling the trigger on Paul George.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Jimmy Butler.  He failed on not pulling the trigger on Kawhi Leonard.  He failed on pulling the trigger on Irving and then not following that up by making the team a real contender (if he wasn't going to go all in around Irving, then he shouldn't have made that trade to begin with).   

your "elmination of clutter" is costing us 2 good young players for a 1-year rental.  that's a losing deal.  you're blatantly speculating on Kyrie staying to justify your deal when there's nothing suggesting he would have stayed knowing Kawhi was headed out of town.  there's also no guarantee that the dysfunction from last year disappears with that deal -- just more speculation on your part.

your perspective on the team being half-assed is plainly your opinion.  The Hayward injury screwed up Ainge's plans for a title.  no one could have foreseen that happening.  I'm not for a full tear-down at this point.  we've got good players, some with some upside still to be realized as well as some decent draftees and draft picks.   we're not dead in the water or middling as you claim.  we may not be contenders but the East really only has 2 teams that I'd say have more talent than the C's based on the current roster and if Hayward does improve for this season, the C's could very well win the conference with a shot in the finals. 

I don't disagree that I want the team to contend or at least be in the process of building to a contender but I think where we disagree is you see this current roster as failure whereas I'm not ready to dismiss this team's chances yet.  I certainly wouldn't have done an all-or-nothing trade that would have lasted one season before plunging the team into a more certain wheel of mediocrity for several years as it runs out the clock on Hayward's deal just hoping Tatum becomes what everyone hopes he can be.  your proposed trade targets of Kawhi, PG or Butler would have left us in all likelihood.  I'm not going to fault Ainge for not throwing away assets for 1-year rentals.

but it is ok to throw them away for a 2 year rental of a significantly lesser player with a vast injury history.  That is what I find strange.  Let's throw away a top 5 MVP finisher (albeit injured), a solid youngish role player, a talented rookie, and a premium draft pick for Irving and then after doing that let's not actually make the team a contender.  It just doesn't make sense.  Neither does the weird blind support for Ainge. 

Yes, the blind support is very weird indeed. Some folks on here act like he’s Red, Larry or Bill. The fact remains that we don’t even have two titles under Ainge. It’s singular. The Bruins have more championship appearances during Ainge’s reign than the Celtics have. And I’m sorry, but there are a ton of geniuses who would kill to have Ainge’s job in the basketball Titletown and, frankly, they would probably do better in this era of analytics.

Red traded Ainge back in the day, and we may want to trade up soon ourselves.